Vatican says aliens could exist

[Kaylia]

i don't get why people choose not to believe... if god does exist your gain is infinite and if he doesn't, you've lost nothing.

even people of science have to see some logic in that, right?

I hope you are joking. Pascals wager is pathetic and you should see the fault of it fairly easily.

Which is?

The problem is expressed mathematically at the bottom. Can you point me where the contradiction is, or what you would redefine to see the fault in it? If you can determine P or the value of a/d, please let us know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

Wagner argument is not a proof that you should believes, but it's still a valid reasoning.

[Blarg]

i don't get why people choose not to believe... if god does exist your gain is infinite and if he doesn't, you've lost nothing.

even people of science have to see some logic in that, right?

I hope you are joking. Pascals wager is pathetic and you should see the fault of it fairly easily.

Which is?

The problem is expressed mathematically at the bottom. Can you point me where the contradiction is, or what you would redefine to see the fault in it? If you can determine P or the value of a/d, please let us know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

Wagner argument is not a proof that you should believes, but it's still a valid reasoning.

Well the god proposed is one that has a heaven and a hell and as we all know tons of those gods exist so the wager can be used against the theist as well since they may have chosen the wrong god to worship and they too may go to hell for choosing the wrong god. So basically any theist is likely going to hell for believing in the wrong god just due to the number of gods available to be worshiped. This does leave atheists slightly in the negative because other religions have at least one chance at heaven and atheist don't. But what if a god exists that chose not to reveal himself and he has something good in store for people who chose not to jump to conclusions and a hell for anyone who believed in a god for bad reasons, or how about a god that sends people who are simply good people to heaven regardless of their belief.

[BerenTebogo]

i don't get why people choose not to believe... if god does exist your gain is infinite and if he doesn't, you've lost nothing.

even people of science have to see some logic in that, right?

Because if God doesn't exist, it puts all the responsibility of the world, and of people, and of making decisions, and of taking action in OUR hands.

God not existing revokes any 'Well, it's in God's hands now...' or 'We just need to believe, and have faith that Jesus will see us through this.' I understand the comfort of belief, I understand having a safety net, hell I understand putting your faith in a higher power and I also understand that some people just have true faith, but if you choose to say that in your life, in your existence, you accept all the responsibility for yourself, and your actions, without fail or doubt you gain something that religion will never be able to give you.

It is unique to the individual, a sense of pride, a sense of belonging to the human race, a sense of global responsibility, anything, even things I could never dream for anyone but myself. I'm not preaching that everyone should drop their belief, but you outright said that believing in god gives you more than not believing in him, and I think that is 100% terribly fucking wrong.

In fact, I will go so far as to say that on a global scale, more problems are cause by believing in god than not, and if less people shrugged off the responsibility that we all share as humans, as people, as citizens of this planet, than everyone would be better off for having taken a stand themselves. Hell, you can still believe in god and acknowledge that god isn't the answer for everything, and many intelligent persons of faith take this approach, however when it comes down to the really tough decisions, the easy answer is to lay it on God's Will.

Me? I'd rather accept my place, and my responsibility, as the end-all be-all authority of my own life, and when it's all said and done, the only person I have to answer to is myself, and you bet your ass that's a lot scarier than 'hell.'

[Blarg]

Sath, the gaining everything + lost nothing part is referring to the afterlife and heaven. It is kinda true that the 'you have lost nothing' isn't exactly correct since you can think of many examples where belief has made someones life worse.

[BerenTebogo]

Well I wont argue that, since I'm a big supporter of the whole 'the body is an electro-chemical factory' standing. When you cut the generators in the plant, the power goes out city-wide, and that's my view of death. Somebody 'cutting the power' so-to-say. I've never thought it to be my place to shit on people who choose to believe in afterlife and whatnot, so I won't argue that, and I'd hope nobody responds to my view of heaven and hell not existing with YOURE GOING TO HELL, because I'll probably bang my head against a wall and give myself a concussion.

[Therin]

Well I wont argue that, since I'm a big supporter of the whole 'the body is an electro-chemical factory' standing. When you cut the generators in the plant, the power goes out city-wide, and that's my view of death. Somebody 'cutting the power' so-to-say. I've never thought it to be my place to shit on people who choose to believe in afterlife and whatnot, so I won't argue that, and I'd hope nobody responds to my view of heaven and hell not existing with YOURE GOING TO HELL, because I'll probably bang my head against a wall and give myself a concussion.

Filthy heathen, you're going to hell.

[spoiler:2pxgwltj]I had to. Hope you don't hurt yourself too badly.[/spoiler:2pxgwltj]

[BerenTebogo]

<3

[Bartylby]

i dont believe in hell either, nowhere in the bible does it say you get condemned to burn forever if you don't live by it. you just don't exist.

same with souls, the whole cross thing, and easter lol.

people(the church) took a great thing like the bible and perverted it so much it's a joke to alot of people

[Kaylia]

Well the god proposed is one that has a heaven and a hell and as we all know tons of those gods exist so the wager can be used against the theist as well since they may have chosen the wrong god to worship and they too may go to hell for choosing the wrong god. So basically any theist is likely going to hell for believing in the wrong god just due to the number of gods available to be worshiped. This does leave atheists slightly in the negative because other religions have at least one chance at heaven and atheist don't. But what if a god exists that chose not to reveal himself and he has something good in store for people who chose not to jump to conclusions and a hell for anyone who believed in a god for bad reasons, or how about a god that sends people who are simply good people to heaven regardless of their belief.

There is many differents possible gods, many differents beliefs and an infinity of variation of similar concepts. It could be a God that reward faith, making it a good choice for all the believer. Or it could a god that punish random faith like you said, making them lose at the "faith lottery". The odd of this lottery are unknown, and you can't demonstrate that one pick is better than the other. I asked Neosutra this questions 2 pages ago because I want to know his beliefs, or the the reasoning that bring him to say that no God could exist.

Not knowing the odd of the lottery, and not being able to attribute a probability to any choices, why wouldn't you simply pick the one you wish to be true? It doesn't hurt to take a position and hope it's the right one.

[Blarg]

i dont believe in hell either, nowhere in the bible does it say you get condemned to burn forever if you don't live by it. you just don't exist.

same with souls, the whole cross thing, and easter lol.

people(the church) took a great thing like the bible and perverted it so much it's a joke to alot of people

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

Revelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.

Mark 9:43-48
... into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:41, 46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

Matthew 18:8-9
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Also, Hell isn't needed to show pascals wager to be very lacking.

[Blarg]

Well the god proposed is one that has a heaven and a hell and as we all know tons of those gods exist so the wager can be used against the theist as well since they may have chosen the wrong god to worship and they too may go to hell for choosing the wrong god. So basically any theist is likely going to hell for believing in the wrong god just due to the number of gods available to be worshiped. This does leave atheists slightly in the negative because other religions have at least one chance at heaven and atheist don't. But what if a god exists that chose not to reveal himself and he has something good in store for people who chose not to jump to conclusions and a hell for anyone who believed in a god for bad reasons, or how about a god that sends people who are simply good people to heaven regardless of their belief.

There is many differents possible gods, many differents beliefs and an infinity of variation of similar concepts. It could be a God that reward faith, making it a good choice for all the believer. Or it could a god that punish random faith like you said, making them lose at the "faith lottery". The odd of this lottery are unknown, and you can't demonstrate that one pick is better than the other. I asked Neosutra this questions 2 pages ago because I want to know his beliefs, or the the reasoning that bring him to say that no God could exist.

Not knowing the odd of the lottery, and not being able to attribute a probability to any choices, why wouldn't you simply pick the one you wish to be true? It doesn't hurt to take a position and hope it's the right one.

You can't fake a belief, you actually have to believe it to.... believe it. Just picking the one that offers the best candy doesn't make it anymore likely to me so I can't trick myself into a belief. I also mentioned that a god may exist that simply sends good people to heaven regardless of belief and therefore taking the stance of Atheism can't hurt either.

You say that we can't demonstrate which pick is better which is odd because you seemed to stick up for pascals wager which states that one form of picking is obviously better, but that sentence of yours seems to disagree with that.

If I were to even pick a god that is kinda 'more likely' to exist I think the one that rewards those people who live a overall good life instead of someone who can be a terrible person and then say 'sorry jesus' and somehow that overrides the terrible things they have done and lets them into heaven. That is the God that would more likely exist, yet I would still say obviously very very unlikely anyway.

[Tyche]

Yeah, I was never one to think God (yeah, I believe in God, not a big fan of organized religion) would send all athiests to hell. I'd hope he could have compassion for good people. Plus, it would make for hilarity once the Athiest got to heaven. The reaction would be epic.

[Blarg]

Plus, it would make for hilarity once the Athiest got to heaven. The reaction would be epic.

God would be like 'damn man, you suck at hide and seek' and then we would jump up and high five in slow motion.

[Kaylia]

Only mormons go to heaven.

You can't fake a belief, you actually have to believe it to.... believe it. Just picking the one that offers the best candy doesn't make it anymore likely to me so I can't trick myself into a belief. I also mentioned that a god may exist that simply sends good people to heaven regardless of belief and therefore taking the stance of Atheism can't hurt either.

You say that we can't demonstrate which pick is better which is odd because you seemed to stick up for pascals wager which states that one form of picking is obviously better, but that sentence of yours seems to disagree with that.

If I were to even pick a god that is kinda 'more likely' to exist I think the one that rewards those people who live a overall good life instead of someone who can be a terrible person and then say 'sorry jesus' and somehow that overrides the terrible things they have done and lets them into heaven. That is the God that would more likely exist, yet I would still say obviously very very unlikely anyway.

You can't fake a belief, but you can rationalize someone else belief. Also, I wasn't trying to demonstrate that atheism is a better/worse belief, it's just one particular belief in the long list of possibility.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Christian believes that you can simply ask for forgiveness. You have to change, and make up for the sin you committed.

[BerenTebogo]

Only mormons go to heaven.

You can't fake a belief, you actually have to believe it to.... believe it. Just picking the one that offers the best candy doesn't make it anymore likely to me so I can't trick myself into a belief. I also mentioned that a god may exist that simply sends good people to heaven regardless of belief and therefore taking the stance of Atheism can't hurt either.

You say that we can't demonstrate which pick is better which is odd because you seemed to stick up for pascals wager which states that one form of picking is obviously better, but that sentence of yours seems to disagree with that.

If I were to even pick a god that is kinda 'more likely' to exist I think the one that rewards those people who live a overall good life instead of someone who can be a terrible person and then say 'sorry jesus' and somehow that overrides the terrible things they have done and lets them into heaven. That is the God that would more likely exist, yet I would still say obviously very very unlikely anyway.

You can't fake a belief, but you can rationalize someone else belief. Also, I wasn't trying to demonstrate that atheism is a better/worse belief, it's just one particular belief in the long list of possibility.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Christian believes that you can simply ask for forgiveness. You have to change, and make up for the sin you committed.

Last Rites being read to Death Row inmates to save their souls from eternal damnation would lead me to believe otherwise.

[Kaylia]

Yeah, I was never one to think God (yeah, I believe in God, not a big fan of organized religion) would send all athiests to hell. I'd hope he could have compassion for good people. Plus, it would make for hilarity once the Athiest got to heaven. The reaction would be epic.

I doubt there is anything after death, but I'm not the one who would complain if there is. Always wanted to ask God where he come from.

Last Rites being read to Death Row inmates to save their souls from eternal damnation would lead me to believe otherwise.

You're forgetting the purgatory. Arent they suposed to suffer there until they are ready?

[Neosutra]

Yeah, I was never one to think God (yeah, I believe in God, not a big fan of organized religion) would send all athiests to hell. I'd hope he could have compassion for good people. Plus, it would make for hilarity once the Athiest got to heaven. The reaction would be epic.

I doubt there is anything after death, but I'm not the one who would complain if there is. Always wanted to ask God where he come from.

Last Rites being read to Death Row inmates to save their souls from eternal damnation would lead me to believe otherwise.

You're forgetting the purgatory. Arent they suposed to suffer there until they are ready?

Dont you know? God was created by another more infinite yet more simple god.

[Kaylia]

Dont you know? God was created by another more infinite yet more simple god.

I knew you would reply to this joke comment, instead of the more complex arguements from before. But it's alright, I got it covered.

The heaven and God in my reply were based on simple 3d visualisation of something finite, basically, the environment we are used to on Earth. I already said multiple time in this thread that similar view would create problems, did I? That's like explaining string theory in a 3d universe where time is independant.

[Neosutra]

Oh im sorry, its hard to tell when your joking and being serious, since they make about the same logical sense.

[Mizango]

i dont believe in hell either, nowhere in the bible does it say you get condemned to burn forever if you don't live by it. you just don't exist.

same with souls, the whole cross thing, and easter lol.

people(the church) took a great thing like the bible and perverted it so much it's a joke to alot of people

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

Revelation 14:10-11
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.

Mark 9:43-48
... into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:41, 46
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

Matthew 18:8-9
If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

"But he loves you!"

All this hell talk immediately made me think of George Carlin.


Edit:Added full Carlin quote "Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!"