Vatican says aliens could exist

[Senoska]

semi relevant:

Your qualms about embryonic stem-cell research are similarly obscene. Here are the facts: stem-cell research is one of the most promising developments in the last century of medicine. It could offer therapeutic break-throughs for every disease or injury process that human beings suffer--for the simple reason that embryonic stem cells can become any tissue in the human body. This research may be also essential for our understanding of cancer, along with a wide variety of developmental disorders. Given these facts, it is almost impossible to exaggerate the promise of stemcell research. It is true, of course, that research on embryonic stem cells entails the destruction of three-day-old human embryos. This is what worries you.

Let us look at the details. A three-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more then 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed in stem cell research do not have brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they can suffer their destruction in any way at all. It is worth remembering, in this context, that when a person's brain has died, we currently deem it acceptable to harvest his organs (Provided he has donated them for this purpose) and bury him in the ground. If it is acceptable to treat a person whose brain has died as something less than a
human being, it should be acceptable to treat a blastocyst as such. If you are concerned about the suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties then killing a human blastocyst.

Perhaps you think that the crucial difference between a fly and a human blastocyst is to be found in the latter's potential to become a fully developed human being. But almost every cell in your body is a potential to become a fully developed human being, given our recent advances in genetic engineering. Everyone time you scratch your nose, you have committed a Holocaust of potential human beings. This is a fact. The argument from a cell's potential gets you absolutely nowhere.

But let us assume, for the moment, that every three day old human embryo has a soul worthy of our moral concern. Embryos at this stage occasionally splint, becoming separate people (Identical twins). Is this a case of one soul splitting into two? Two embryos sometimes fuse into a single individual called a Chimera. You or someone you know may have developed in this way. No doubt theologians are strugging even now to determine what becomes of the extra human soul in such case.

Isn't it time we admitted that this arithmetic of souls does not make any sense?? The naive idea of souls in a petri dish is intellectually indefensible. It also is morally indefensible, given that it now stands in the way of some of the most promising research in the history of medicine. Your beliefs are about the human soul are, at this very moment, prolonging the scarcely endurable misery of tens of millions of human beings.

You believe that "Life starts at the moment of conception". You believe that there are souls in each of these blastocyst and that the interest of one soul--the soul of a little girl with burns over 75 percent of her body, say--cannot trump the interest of another soul, even if that soul happends to live inside a petri dish. Givin the accommodations we have made to faith-based irrationality in our public discourse, it is often suggested, even by advocates of stemcell research that your position on this matter has some degree of moral legitimacy. It does not. Your resistance to embryonic stem cell research is, at best, uninformed. There is, in fact, no moral reason for our federal government's unwillingness to fund this work. We should throw immense resources into stem-cell research, and we should do so immediatly. Because of what Christians like yourself believe about souls, we are not doing this. In fact, several states have made such work illegal. If one experiments on a blastocyst in South Dakota, for instance, one risk spending years in prison.

The moral truth here is the obvious: anyone who feels that the interest of a blastocyst just might supersede the interest of a child with a spinal cord injury has had his moral sense blinded by religious metaphysics. The link between religion and "morality"--so regularly proclaimed and so seldom demonstrated--is fully belied here, as it is wherever religious dogma supersedes moral reasoning and genuine compassion.

blah

[Arcana]

I guess i have to be greatful i live in britain cause religion is definitly lower down on our scale of important shit.

important shit:
1) Tea
2) Mocking the French & Germans
3) Disliking our monarchy
4) Re-Conquering the world
5) Ridding our land of immigrants
...
1XX) Religion

All hail Royal Britania!!!

[Melchiah]

Science and religion need each other

This is hands down the quote of the year! Courtesy of Da poop.

Religion is a primitive form of science. Science seeks to explain that which is not readily understood, which is the same objective of most God myths. We've simply outgrown the usefulness of that particular facet of religion. Science does a much better job of explaining the world than Zeus on Olympus or what have you. The one benefit that the larger religions(barring extremist sects, of course) still provide is that they attempt to make us treat each other with respect. For this, I cannot fault them, but even that bit of altruism is vastly overshadowed by the crippling effect Christianity has had on modern science, and I won't even go into the various "Holy Wars" between the European Catholics and the Muslims.

[Senoska]

Science and religion need each other

This is hands down the quote of the year! Courtesy of Da poop.

Religion is a primitive form of science. Science seeks to explain that which is not readily understood, which is the same objective of most God myths. We've simply outgrown the usefulness of that particular facet of religion. Science does a much better job of explaining the world than Zeus on Olympus or what have you. The one benefit that the larger religions(barring extremist sects, of course) still provide is that they attempt to make us treat each other with respect. For this, I cannot fault them, but even that bit of altruism is vastly overshadowed by the crippling effect Christianity has had on modern science, and I won't even go into the various "Holy Wars" between the European Catholics and the Muslims.

Current day Christianity (read: Cherry pick the fuck out of the bible) I have no problem with, I've said it before but moderate Christians don't bother me, those that force their beliefs (IE: No gay marrage, anti stem cell, anti evolution, IDiots trying to push shit in schools, etc) are the ones that get to me, granted I happen to believe that the moderates (not all.) tend to enable the extremist in their religions to run around doing this shit.

Also, I agree, religion was (in my opinion) man's first attempt at science, and we have out grown it.

Also, semi off subject, but people that really get to me are those that say you can't be moral without the bible, which does indeed say be moral, but the next word says kill your son if they talk back to you, stone your wife to death if you find out she wasn't a virgin, etc. which is vastly unmoral. Take it as you will, the bible is still a decent book to read, but take it to heart? I don't know about that.

[Zilong]

I guess i have to be greatful i live in britain cause religion is definitly lower down on our scale of important shit.

important shit:
1) Tea
2) Mocking the French & Germans
3) Disliking our monarchy
4) Re-Conquering the world
5) Ridding our land of immigrants
...
1XX) Religion

All hail Royal Britania!!!

Where does getting rid of Zero falls under the scale of importance?

[Raineer]

I wish it was less important in the States, at least publicly.

The fact that is so publicly preached by so many is likely a strong cause of a lot of teen "I live against the man" rebel behavior. It really should not be a surprise when behavior is so shoved in the face of younger people that malls are filled with 90% goths who's only intent in life seems to be to be unlike everyone else by being exactly like each other.

It would surely be nice if more experienced people (read: adults) were bright enough to actually understand the affect their preaching is having.

[Neosutra]

I wish it was less important in the States, at least publicly.

The fact that is so publicly preached by so many is likely a strong cause of a lot of teen "I live against the man" rebel behavior. It really should not be a surprise when behavior is so shoved in the face of younger people that malls are filled with 90% goths who's only intent in life seems to be to be unlike everyone else by being exactly like each other.

It would surely be nice if more experienced people (read: adults) were bright enough to actually understand the affect their preaching is having.

I often wonder what % of those people preaching willing know the ill effects of their subversive dogmas on their victims, and what % are really just blind followers trying to spread the word.

i.e. what % of Pastors/Preachers/Priests have serious doubts about their dogma/religion but continue it anyways because they follow the system of their established religious culture(or just like the job lol). I know alot of people come out of semenary as agnostic due to learning alot of the less publisized things about their religion.

I think if we really knew the %, alot of people would be shocked. I would venture to guess that about 15% of all clergy (or more) are atheist. Kinda like the gay guy that bashes gays all the time to battle his inner fears of homosexuality, what % of clergy preach grace/damnation every sunday to battle their own fears of mortality.

[Mizango]

I wish it was less important in the States, at least publicly.

The fact that is so publicly preached by so many is likely a strong cause of a lot of teen "I live against the man" rebel behavior. It really should not be a surprise when behavior is so shoved in the face of younger people that malls are filled with 90% goths who's only intent in life seems to be to be unlike everyone else by being exactly like each other.

It would surely be nice if more experienced people (read: adults) were bright enough to actually understand the affect their preaching is having.

I often wonder what % of those people preaching willing know the ill effects of their subversive dogmas on their victims, and what % are really just blind followers trying to spread the word.

i.e. what % of Pastors/Preachers/Priests have serious doubts about their dogma/religion but continue it anyways because they follow the system of their established religious culture(or just like the job lol). I know alot of people come out of semenary as agnostic due to learning alot of the less publisized things about their religion.

I think if we really knew the %, alot of people would be shocked. I would venture to guess that about 15% of all clergy (or more) are atheist. Kinda like the gay guy that bashes gays all the time to battle his inner fears of homosexuality, what % of clergy preach grace/damnation every sunday to battle their own fears of mortality.

I am really glad you pointed that out Neo because it made me remember that a cousin of mine is a Minister in Mobile, Alabama and he is and always has been an Atheist. He became a minister simply to "get a job" and to support his large family. He also mentions some of the non publicized parts of religion that scare a lot of devout theists off once they delve into the "Clergical ranks" so to speak. He has been and is still a minister to this day, he's been doing it for hmmm about 17 years or so.

So it does indeed happen.

[Day]

I want to hear more about the stuff that scares devout theists off... please go on =)

[Neosutra]

I want to hear more about the stuff that scares devout theists off... please go on =)

Read the bible. Its all there.

Or do some research on the actual translations and origins of the books we compiled into the bible, and the actual recorded history of events during those times, its pretty compelling evidence against the dogma as a whole, thus it isnt widely taught. Doing a good amount of that research is what turned me from christian to atheist (i used to be a christian missionary), the degree in physics just solidified it.

[Kuya]

(i used to be a christian missionary),

HA!

[Neosutra]

(i used to be a christian missionary),

HA!

Ya, I did missionary work in India for a while, and was training to become a youth minister, and decided to do the research to back up my beliefs. Spent about 2 years of really intense study and at the end found myself to be an atheist(or probably atheist/agnostic at that point). After I finished grad school in physics I could finally quantify myself as 100% atheist, as the final shreds of theism/agnostism fell to the feet of common sense and hard science.

I dont regret my previous religious life, nor am I bitter. I am a little dissapointed I commited so much time to something that I now feel is damaging to society, but sometimes you have a to take the tough road to recovery and learn from the mistakes you made in the past, so you dont make them again.

[Blarg]

What kind of christian were you Neo? More moderate or fundamental, denomination? Your story seems pretty similar to the host of a public access tv show I've been watching recently online.

[Mizango]

(i used to be a christian missionary),

HA!

Ya, I did missionary work in India for a while, and was training to become a youth minister, and decided to do the research to back up my beliefs. Spent about 2 years of really intense study and at the end found myself to be an atheist(or probably atheist/agnostic at that point). After I finished grad school in physics I could finally quantify myself as 100% atheist, as the final shreds of theism/agnostism fell to the feet of common sense and hard science.

I dont regret my previous religious life, nor am I bitter. I am a little dissapointed I commited so much time to something that I now feel is damaging to society, but sometimes you have a to take the tough road to recovery and learn from the mistakes you made in the past, so you dont make them again.

Oh wow that is a really interesting story. It seems once you find Science you see things for what they are. Most of my family are Southern Baptists and as I got older and coincidently gravitated towards the Sciences Physics, Quantum Theory, Biology, Astronomy etc... I began to form my own opinions of life and what makes us "us". Going through college, being broke and spending my spare time reading books and doing my own Physics studies on the side was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

So like you I have a strict religion background in my youth as well, it is just always neat to hear others people stories. There seems to always be a common denominator more times than none, that factors into such decisions; Science. Certainly no disrespect to anyone specifically, To each his own.

[Woozie]

My faith in my religion (Non-denominational Christian) has actually gotten much stronger over the years even with my intense focus on physics. I'm getting dressed to go to church right now as we speak.

[Neosutra]

My faith in my religion (Non-denominational Christian) has actually gotten much stronger over the years even with my intense focus on physics. I'm getting dressed to go to church right now as we speak.

I lost my theism as I studied more about christianity and the actual history/documentation that we have(the general dogma of christianity has almost no correlation to the actual translations/books that were compiled/edited/lost/madeup). The degree in physics simply allowed me a stronger argument for atheism other than just "christianity is wrong". So I guess you could say studying religion makes you an agnostic, studying science makes you an atheist.

If you chose to hold onto your theism throughout your scientific studies you will continually re-justify your beliefs with everything you learn, as you attempt to rationalize them, regardless of their validity.

But as we discussed in the other topic woozie, there is no scientific principle that yeilds you evidence/support for god, you simply believe for personal reasons. It isnt the scientific degree that has strengthened your faith, it is your faith that has had to become stronger to deal with the increasingly small gap that your idealogical god can exist as your knowledge of our universe increases.

[Woozie]

It isnt the scientific degree that has strengthened your faith, it is your faith that has had to become stronger to deal with the increasingly small gap that your idealogical god can exist as your knowledge of our universe increases.

I never said my scientific knowledge is the reason for my strengthened my faith. I said that my faith has strengthened while gaining a significant amount of scientific knowledge (I was speaking in response to the post above mine). I didn't mean to imply that my faith and my scientific knowledge were in some sort of a cause and effect relationship. I meant to imply that they just happened simultaneously.

And the second part of your statement is just way off.

[Day]

This is extremely interesting to me... I haven't spent a lot of time reading and researching on the translations of the bible and things, but I've always wanted to look into it more. I had a New Testament class in college where we touched on that some, and it's something I've thought about ever since. I mean really the bible has been translated how many times now?? And die hards live by it like it's fact. (For the most part, seems to be some picking and choosing going on, but that's probably a sterotype and another topic all together).

Whats interesting to me is Woozie maintaining his religon as he learns more and more... can you expand on how you do this? How do you rationalize obvious conflicts between religon and science, and how do you balance the two without losing your mind?

[Neosutra]

He doesnt, he keeps them seperate, else he wouldnt be religious.

And woozie, you walk a fine line with your growing responsibility as a scientist. You make dangerous comments like "my faith has grown as my knowledge of science as developed" which makes people think that your research validates your religion, then you come back and say "oh, nevermind, they have nothing to do with each other". Your pissing on the responsibility you will have as a scientist in this society to apply standards to your beliefs.

I agree with your right to believe what you want, but you REALLY need to watch how you say your religion and research mesh, because you are instilling false confidence in other people's faith, as they trust your more educated opinion.

As for the last part of my previous post, its dead on.

[Woozie]

And woozie, you walk a fine line with your growing responsibility as a scientist. You make dangerous comments like "my faith has grown as my knowledge of science as developed" which makes people think that your research validates your religion, then you come back and say "oh, nevermind, they have nothing to do with each other". Your pissing on the responsibility you will have as a scientist in this society to apply standards to your beliefs.

No offense, and I really try my hardest to not say anything offensive to you no matter what stupidity comes out of your mouth, but learn some freakin' reading comprehension. Nowhere in my post did I indicate that one was because of each other, and my second post was not an "oh nevermind" type of explanation. For a person with a PhD and thinks he's smart, you sure are slow. I even used the phrase "even with" to purposely indicate that my own personal experience is contrary to what you should expect. I even edited it a few times for clarity. Even so, I had a feeling some not-so-bright poster would come through and misinterpret, but I didn't expect it to be you.

I bite my tongue more than anyone else on these forums. I try my hardest to avoid name calling or saying things that offend others even when they clearly deserve it. But when someone who has a PhD and tries to give off the impression of being smart has such a track record of stupidity, I can't help but point it out.

This is probably the last time I'll ever outright insult someone on these forums who isn't TheShadyMan. If you feel the need to insult me back, fine, I don't care. If you want to be the "bigger man" and not say anything back, that's fine too. But if you still feel the need to let idiocy permeate half the posts you make on these forums, then just don't respond to my posts anymore. End of discussion.