Vatican says aliens could exist

[Jefe]

^Can't you pick up his animosity every time he talks about religion? He seems blinded by it, even more than a zealot Whenever he touches the subject like his "scientific background" or denseness blinds him completely and engages into a personal crusade (zing) to bash religion and those who embrace it. It's just impossible to have a decent discourse with the guy lol.

Neo like I said before, most of the time you don't make sense man Q.Q

[Senoska]

And woozie, you walk a fine line with your growing responsibility as a scientist. You make dangerous comments like "my faith has grown as my knowledge of science as developed" which makes people think that your research validates your religion, then you come back and say "oh, nevermind, they have nothing to do with each other". Your pissing on the responsibility you will have as a scientist in this society to apply standards to your beliefs.

No offense, and I really try my hardest to not say anything offensive to you no matter what stupidity comes out of your mouth, but learn some freakin' reading comprehension. Nowhere in my post did I indicate that one was because of each other, and my second post was not an "oh nevermind" type of explanation. For a person with a PhD and thinks he's smart, you sure are slow. I even used the phrase "even with" to purposely indicate that my own personal experience is contrary to what you should expect. I even edited it a few times for clarity. Even so, I had a feeling some not-so-bright poster would come through and misinterpret, but I didn't expect it to be you.

I bite my tongue more than anyone else on these forums. I try my hardest to avoid name calling or saying things that offend others even when they clearly deserve it. But when someone who has a PhD and tries to give off the impression of being smart has such a track record of stupidity, I can't help but point it out.

This is probably the last time I'll ever outright insult someone on these forums who isn't TheShadyMan. If you feel the need to insult me back, fine, I don't care. If you want to be the "bigger man" and not say anything back, that's fine too. But if you still feel the need to let idiocy permeate half the posts you make on these forums, then just don't respond to my posts anymore. End of discussion.

I think you misunderstood where he was going with that, or perhaps I did. I think he was saying that people can take things you say out of context, and people will cling to those things, much like they do with Einstein. Quote mining if you will. The discovery institute does this ALOT with biologist, and other scientist. That's all I think he was saying.

Secondly, Meteora, you're a fucking moron.

edit: Here is an example of this Woozie, this was done by the discovery institute, listed 100 "scientist"* that doubt evolution, after some research was done (IE: Contacting every single biologist on this list..) only two of the names listed here actually did not accept evolution.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6934/lolthemej2.jpg

You will notice how absolutely misleading this title is, any biologist would say they are skeptical of evolution, and rightfully so, but they are wording it (ie; taking what any biologist would say, and twisting it) so it appears that they are saying "we don't accept it"

*= only about 30 of the people here are actually biologist and should have any say in this matter.

[Neosutra]

Sen posted the response I was going for before I could.

1. Woozie, not going to insult you, though I am suprised you are the first one in our convo to turn that way, I assume I struck a nerve. But I am trying to prepare you for a responsibility that I dont think you fully appreciate.

As sensoka stated, "those idiots that misinterpret" your statements are everywhere and your friends/colleagues/students will look at everything you say as validity to a that beleif system.

2. If you think that a statement of "my faith has grown as my knowledge of physics has grown" wouldnt be construed as asserting a link between the two, then your incredibily naive or in denial.

3. I laughed a little bit at all the insults you tossed in, as you see most of my/others opinions as "stupid trash", that you "tolerate and bite your tongue", biased much? You yourself seem to have alot of pent up aggression and bitterness, and let me tell you its only going to get worse as you progress through your physics career, if you dont learn to be a bit open minded.

If you wonder why there was a bit of underlined animosity on my direct questions to you about scientific responsibility, its because there are so many scientist that proclaim their religious beliefs to their friends(which is perfectly fine), but do so with the backing of all the education/research they have achieved. You dont even have to say "this equation proves that god exists, or this principle helps me develop my faith", its simply making generalized statements like you did in the previous posts that do such an overwhelming disservice to all of the scientist out there that ensure they apply the same high standard of reason and application to everything they say to the public.

Einstien was misquoted a few times, and theist have held onto those quotes as reassurances that "even the brilliant physicists believe". You may not want to hear it, and it keeps pushing your buttons to say it, but you DO have a responsibility as an up and coming physicist to filter what you say to the public, end of story.


As for meteora, just lol.

[Woozie]

2. If you think that a statement of "my faith has grown as my knowledge of physics has grown" wouldnt be construed as asserting a link between the two, then your incredibily naive or in denial.

In the context of the fact that I was speaking in response to a previous post and (especially) the fact that I've already discussed my views on this forum before, there's no reason you should have misinterpreted my post. If people aren't smart enough to figure out what I'm saying in this context, then there's just no hope for said people. I word my sentences in a way that people with a half decent level of common sense will understand. If you don't have that much common sense, then that's your problem.

3. I laughed a little bit at all the insults you tossed in, as you see most of my/others opinions as "stupid trash", that you "tolerate and bite your tongue", biased much? You yourself seem to have alot of pent up aggression and bitterness, and let me tell you its only going to get worse as you progress through your physics career, if you dont learn to be a bit open minded.

I never said your opinions are stupid. I said YOU are. There's a huge difference. And I never said others are stupid. I said YOU are. Again, huge difference. And the "pent up aggression and bitterness" is against people who consistently say really stupid things. I'm assuming that's going to lessen the deeper I get into physics, but I guess you're living proof that I'm wrong about that.

And of all people, you're the person who's least able to talk about being "open minded".

Einstien was misquoted a few times, and theist have held onto those quotes as reassurances that "even the brilliant physicists believe". You may not want to hear it, and it keeps pushing your buttons to say it, but you DO have a responsibility as an up and coming physicist to filter what you say to the public, end of story.

So what about when I'm speaking to a person with a PhD in physics and is already fully aware of my views? You do realize that I would have reacted way differently if it had been anyone else who responded the way you did, right? From now on I should be aware of the fact that they may not have much common sense? Of all the PhDs I've met before, you're the first one who doesn't seem to use common sense, so this is sort of new to me. I've discussed religion/science with Senoska plenty of times on AIM, and every single time, he's always shown himself to be very intelligent, and he doesn't even have a degree yet. Of course, as you already know, he strongly disagrees with me, but at least the things he says are always logical. When I see you debating things on this forum, it reminds me of all the times I've tried to explain the importance of provoke to my dunes parties and watching the white mage get owned immediately afterwards.

And lol at you trying to speak as if the intention of your post was to "teach me a lesson". It was clearly an example of lack of reading comprehension mixed with your natural animosity against people who have a different belief system than you.

[Blarg]

So a physicist, the pope, and Shrek walk into a bar....

[Woozie]

So a physicist, the pope, and Shrek walk into a bar....

That's no Shrek, that's my WIFE!

[Neosutra]

Wow woozie, have to say im really dissapointed in you. Your entire response was "your stupid".

What a joke. I always thought of you as an up and coming physicist that was open minded and could take other's opinions. But now i see you as a sad child, barely into his degree, that quivers at the first sign of any assault on his personal beliefs.

Really kinda shocked at the moment. Good luck with your career, I hope you stick with it, because you havent even started yet. Im finishing up moving right now, so ill check back later to read whatever insult riddin rediculous excuse for a response you come up with.

[Woozie]

What a joke. I always thought of you as an up and coming physicist that was open minded and could take other's opinions. But now i see you as a sad child, barely into his degree, that quivers at the first sign of any assault on his personal beliefs.

Do you really think I have a problem with people disagreeing with my beliefs? Seriously, is that what you think? Why would I even discuss this with Senoska at all if that was the issue? Why would I even go into theoretical physics if that was the problem? Why would I discuss this at work (and I've told you before that I do discuss this at work) if that was the issue? Why would I ask for yotur AIM/MSN if that was the issue? Why don't I have a problem with ANY other poster in this topic if that's the issue? Why would I read books and articles by authors such as Michael Sherman if that was the issue?

[Neosutra]

What a joke. I always thought of you as an up and coming physicist that was open minded and could take other's opinions. But now i see you as a sad child, barely into his degree, that quivers at the first sign of any assault on his personal beliefs.

Do you really think I have a problem with people disagreeing with my beliefs? Seriously, is that what you think? Why would I even discuss this with Senoska at all if that was the issue? Why would I even go into theoretical physics if that was the problem? Why would I discuss this at work (and I've told you before that I do discuss this at work) if that was the issue? Why would I ask for yotur AIM/MSN if that was the issue? Why don't I have a problem with ANY other poster in this topic if that's the issue? Why would I read books and articles by authors such as Michael Sherman if that was the issue?

As long as they say what you want to hear right?

Edit:

Also, I didnt say anything in the previous posts that werent said already in our previous more civil debate.

All I was trying to point out is that as a future scientist, your words carry weight. You can flail your arms as wildly as you want and scream "out of context", but thats the way it works. People will look to you and your opinion/beliefs with respect, and thus it is your responsibility to respect those people and the principles to which you adhere.

If stating that education and intelligence carry responsibility is really that offensive to you (offensive enough to send you on such a wild insult rant), then you need to take some time and reflect a bit on just what exactly is biting your ass.

[Beckwin]

I don't think woozie said anywhere that his growing scientific knowledge and understanding is causing his faith to grow; rather it's more or less in spite of or coincidentally. You're flying off the handle and insulting his intelligence and credibility without considering for a moment that there's more to someone's conscious and being than their chosen field of study.

I could talk about why I'd guess his faith has become more important to him based on what I know and can infer about his personal life, but bottom line is that woozie has made it clear that he can separate his work from his religion, doesn't go around proselytizing, so just because he doesn't choose to deal with nihility in the way you or I might doesn't mean he can't do good work as a scientist.

and for ffs, this is BG, not a public scientific community.

tl;dr is that you're going after the wrong guy for the wrong reasons.

[Neosutra]

I don't think woozie said anywhere that his growing scientific knowledge and understanding is causing his faith to grow; rather it's more or less in spite of or coincidentally. You're flying off the handle and insulting his intelligence and credibility without considering for a moment that there's more to someone's conscious and being than their chosen field of study.

I could talk about why I'd guess his faith has become more important to him based on what I know and can infer about his personal life, but bottom line is that woozie has made it clear that he can separate his work from his religion, doesn't go around proselytizing, so just because he doesn't choose to deal with nihility in the way you or I might doesn't mean he can't do good work as a scientist.

and for ffs, this is BG, not a public scientific community.

tl;dr is that you're going after the wrong guy for the wrong reasons.

I would say woozie was the first one to "fly off the handle". And as stated before, you dont have to go around proselytizing to do damage, making statements like the one he made before is just as bad. As for the "he can seperate his work and religion", that has been covered in another topic and has no relation to this debate. THIS debate is about taking to heart the responsibility of education and how easily words can be construed to fit what someone wants them to be. And you cant deny that its not a stretch to infer a connection in his statement between increasing education and his faith.

And this is BG, in general discussion, in a topic on religion/science.. how is that not an appropriate avenue to discuss the topics?

Im not "going after the wrong guy for the wrong reasons", I simply again pointed out the damage careless statements like the one he made can cause, and resulted in a backlash of juvenile name calling. Not sure what got into him to upset him so badly, perhaps he had an extra pep shot in his sermon this morning, or perhaps he was just in a bad mood. Regardless, my point isnt an offensive stretch or far reaching insult, it was a simple clarity on the responsibility of education and intelligence.

[Woozie]

If your goal was truly nothing more than explaining to me how the words of a scientist can be taken out of context or misinterpreted or whatever, why didn't you just do what Senoska did? There's a billion different ways you could make such a point that would all be a billion times more clear.

Stop pretending that teaching me a lesson about how my words can be misused is the reason for your post. We both know it isn't.

Edit:

What a joke. I always thought of you as an up and coming physicist that was open minded and could take other's opinions. But now i see you as a sad child, barely into his degree, that quivers at the first sign of any assault on his personal beliefs.

Do you really think I have a problem with people disagreeing with my beliefs? Seriously, is that what you think? Why would I even discuss this with Senoska at all if that was the issue? Why would I even go into theoretical physics if that was the problem? Why would I discuss this at work (and I've told you before that I do discuss this at work) if that was the issue? Why would I ask for yotur AIM/MSN if that was the issue? Why don't I have a problem with ANY other poster in this topic if that's the issue? Why would I read books and articles by authors such as Michael Sherman if that was the issue?

As long as they say what you want to hear right?

Since when do ANY of these people say what I want to hear? If my goal was to listen to people say what I want to hear, why would I even go near these people?

[Neosutra]

If your goal was truly nothing more than explaining to me how the words of a scientist can be taken out of context or misinterpreted or whatever, why didn't you just do what Senoska did? There's a billion different ways you could make such a point that would all be a billion times more clear.

Stop pretending that teaching me a lesson about how my words can be misused is the reason for your post. We both know it isn't.

I never tried to hide the fact that it irks me to see it happen, so you can be sure that Ill be annoyed when a future physicist makes such an easily missinterpreted statement. But that doesnt change the fact that it happened, and it doesnt change your reaction to my statement, which was juvenile and just plain silly.

[Kuya]

All I was trying to point out is that as a future scientist, your words carry weight. You can flail your arms as wildly as you want and scream "out of context", but thats the way it works. People will look to you and your opinion/beliefs with respect, and thus it is your responsibility to respect those people and the principles to which you adhere.

His words will carry weight only in the context of physics, religion has nothing to do with it and anyone who tries to extrapolate his personal beliefs to his science is mearly just fishing for excuses. It's not Woozie's problem if they want to play dirty.

You see, the problem is Neosutra has this idea that a scientist's job is also to tell people how to think, or become their role model as a human being, it really goes hand in hand with the fact that he was a misionary, except now he's a misionary for science. Neo has never hidden the fact that people believing in things that require faith bothers him, but not in the same way as someone who's just annoyed by it, rather he actually thinks that it's his duty to change the minds of these people.

[Sagacious Sundi]

ITT: Aliens and the Vatican, plus atheists spewing crap out of their mouths.

South Park has never seemed more relevant.

[Neosutra]

All I was trying to point out is that as a future scientist, your words carry weight. You can flail your arms as wildly as you want and scream "out of context", but thats the way it works. People will look to you and your opinion/beliefs with respect, and thus it is your responsibility to respect those people and the principles to which you adhere.

His words will carry weight only in the context of physics, religion has nothing to do with it and anyone who tries to extrapolate his personal beliefs to his science is mearly just fishing for excuses. It's not Woozie's problem if they want to play dirty.

You see, the problem is Neosutra has this idea that a scientist's job is also to tell people how to think, or become their role model as a human being, it really goes hand in hand with the fact that he was a misionary, except now he's a misionary for science. Neo has never hidden the fact that people believing in things that require faith bothers him, but not in the same way as someone who's just annoyed by it, rather he actually thinks that it's his duty to change the minds of these people.

Your correct on the first part that anyone that construes physicist's statements for their own gain is fishing for excuses, but that was my entire point.. dont give them the excuses.

As for the bolded part, you have continually played the "neo is a zealotous atheist" card in every religion thread regardless of the fact that we continually establish that I never -ever- give my many religious friends/coworkers a hard time in RL. As stated before (and dear god I hope its the last time), in a thread on religion, on the internet, there is a valid and great opportunity to debate on the global views/ramifications of theism and atheism. Your assertations on my beliefs are narrow minded and biased, but that follows the standard of your previous posts.

[Kuya]

Your assertations on my beliefs are narrow minded and biased, but that follows the standard of your previous posts.

I must be your mirror.

Honestly, why do you persist on denying this anymore? This is what most people who get into these debates think of you, there's no denying it, so why don't you play along since it's inevitable? You even managed to push away Woozie; your convinctions only annoy those you seek to "enlighten".

[Neosutra]

Your assertations on my beliefs are narrow minded and biased, but that follows the standard of your previous posts.

I must be your mirror.

Honestly, why do you persist on denying this anymore? This is what most people who get into these debates think of you, there's no denying it, so why don't you play along since it's inevitable? You even managed to push away Woozie; your convinctions only annoy those you seek to "enlighten".

Your mirror indeed, if you dont think half your posts reveal the same disdain from readers your dilluding yourself. The difference comes from what side of the fence your sitting on. Woozie just happens to unfortunately be another theist, angry that he has no ammo in his perverbial arsenal beyond insult anymore. My goal was never to "enlighten" woozie, I was sincerly just hoping he wasnt that naive, and was thus proding his beliefs to see what was really there, but so much for that. Its pretty much why every post of yours is a joke, a juvenile insult at best. You have nothing intelligent to add beyond the same tired rhetoric and insults.

[Kuya]

Woozie just happens to unfortunately be another theist, angry that he has no ammo in his perverbial arsenal beyond insult anymore. My goal was never to "enlighten" woozie, I was sincerly just hoping he wasnt that naive, but so much for that

When in the world was he defending the details of his religious views to you? You're the one who jumps on his ass about his views, not the other way around. He never looks for you to justify his religion, however you consistently pursue him. He has insulted you because he's tired of your constant intruding into his afairs.

Its pretty much why every post of yours is a joke, a juvenile insult at best. You have nothing intelligent to add beyond the same tired rhetoric and insults.

Sure, every single one of my posts is a joke, even though you haven't seen every single one of my posts or have analised a single one to see if they are unintelligent or juvenile, yes, exactly, and i'm the one using tired rhetoric. Perhaps there is nothing intelligent or relevant to add to this debate because it's a debate with no point to it, a debate where your only purpose in it seems to be to just annoy theists.

[Takeno]

Umm, no one has answered my question/statement

"If god is almighty then why did he give us the brains and capabilities to do stem cell research, etc..? I believe that if it's humanly possible then I think it should be explored"

Please destroy me