MLB '08 Season Discussion

[Viq]

ESPN guys are reporting that Manny deal is dead. Rumor has it that the Sox may be trying to make a deal for Kemp from the Dodgers.

[Akiyama]

Rumor has it that the deal is back on now. =P We have plenty of time.

[Viq]

With the deadline recently passed, it appears Manny will remain a member of the Red Sox.

As for Jason Bay, he apparently will be heading to Tampa Bay for a couple of prospects.

EDIT: Now Ken Rosenthal is reporting that Bay didn't go to the Rays.

EDIT2: Aaaaaaannnnnddd Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe/NESN is reporting that a deal went down with Manny, but he didn't specify who is really going where. I hate the trade deadline.

[Cephius]

With the deadline recently passed, it appears Manny will remain a member of the Red Sox.

As for Jason Bay, he apparently will be heading to Tampa Bay for a couple of prospects.

EDIT: Now Ken Rosenthal is reporting that Bay didn't go to the Rays.

EDIT2: Aaaaaaannnnnddd Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe/NESN is reporting that a deal went down with Manny, but he didn't specify who is really going where. I hate the trade deadline.

Heard on WFAN here in New York that he's on his way to the Dodgers. Players in return not named yet..

[Viq]

Manny to LA, Jason bay to Boston, 4 prospects to Pittsburgh. Not sure who the prospects are. Sox are still paying out the rest of Manny's contract. I'm pretty upset that the Sox willfully made themselves a worse team while in the middle of a pennant race.

[Cephius]

Hearing that Brandon Moss and Craig Hansen are headed to Pittsburgh along with 2 prospects from the Dodgers. Manny to LA. Pretty crazy, the Red Sox basically just gave up Moss+Hansen+Manny for a 29 year old left fielder who hits .209 with RISP and has been a career National Leaguer. Terrible trade if you ask me, I guess the Sox FO really couldn't take Manny anymore. Pretty nuts.

[Akiyama]

Dunno. Other than the two prospects, the Red Sox didn't lose THAT much. They got about the same quality offensively (Bay, while struggling with RISP is bound to get better I'm sure), a better outfielder (He's a shit ton than Manny in the field), less of a contract/money issue, and he's signed through 2009. I think it was best for the team.

Also, with Andy LaRoche heading to Pittsburgh, that'll put both LaRoches on the Pirates. o.o; Pirates got some great prospects. If this was like 5 years ago, the Dodgers would have one hell of an OF with Manny and Andruw. Now though, rofl. Not so much >.>

[Cephius]

Dunno. Other than the two prospects, the Red Sox didn't lose THAT much. They got about the same quality offensively (Bay, while struggling with RISP is bound to get better I'm sure), a better outfielder (He's a shit ton than Manny in the field), less of a contract/money issue, and he's signed through 2009. I think it was best for the team.

Have to disagree here. First of all, Bay has never been in a pressure situation or a pennant race, and he's getting thrown right into the fire here, combined with that he will naturally be looked as a replacement for Manny instead of just an addition to the team. Anyone can see those are huge shoes to fill.

Secondly, his fielding is not a big issue in Fenway. The only hard part about playing that outfield is learning to play the ball off the Green Monster, an art that Manny had mastered. Any fielding advantage that Bay has is nullified here, I think.

Also, as part of the deal the Red Sox had to pay the remaining 7 million on Manny's salary as well as the rest of Bay's salary for 2008. So they really didn't gain a money advantage either since they weren't going to pick up Manny's option in the off season anyway.

As far as it being best for the team, sure, but team chemistry only gets you so far. The Red Sox put up with a lot of garbage from Manny in the past, the only reason they let it go was because few people rival his ability to hit a baseball. Nady is a fine player, but he is no Manny and I think it won't take long for the Sox to miss his presence in the lineup.

[Viq]

Don't forget that by trading Manny, the Sox also won't be getting the 2 first round picks that they would've gotten for playing out this season, not picking up his option, and offering him arbitration. So they made an even value trade at best for Manny -> Bay. Then they gave up $7mil that they're paying to LA, Hansen (meh), Moss (I've loved this kid in Pawtucket), AND 2 first round picks. With Theo's history in the draft, first round picks are a huge deal.

[Akiyama]

Have to disagree here. First of all, Bay has never been in a pressure situation or a pennant race, and he's getting thrown right into the fire here, combined with that he will naturally be looked as a replacement for Manny instead of just an addition to the team. Anyone can see those are huge shoes to fill.

Secondly, his fielding is not a big issue in Fenway. The only hard part about playing that outfield is learning to play the ball off the Green Monster, an art that Manny had mastered. Any fielding advantage that Bay has is nullified here, I think.

Also, as part of the deal the Red Sox had to pay the remaining 7 million on Manny's salary as well as the rest of Bay's salary for 2008. So they really didn't gain a money advantage either since they weren't going to pick up Manny's option in the off season anyway.

As far as it being best for the team, sure, but team chemistry only gets you so far. The Red Sox put up with a lot of garbage from Manny in the past, the only reason they let it go was because few people rival his ability to hit a baseball. Nady is a fine player, but he is no Manny and I think it won't take long for the Sox to miss his presence in the lineup.

Bay*

Now to get to disecting your disagreement as usual. Jason Bay may not be used to the pressure situations, but no one is ever truly used to pressure situations. While Manny was pretty damn good under pressure, he was too much of a negative presence all and all. Jason Bay, being in Boston I think, will get used to the pressure he has to deal with. It's a business. He knows what he'll have to do. There will be growing pains I'm sure, just like with Tex's 0-4 night last night against Boston, but I think he'll be alright.

Secondly... what? His fielding IS that big of an issue. Just because he has a giant wall to play the ball off of, it'll be completely different when he can actually stop a ground ball without falling on his ass, and without him lollygagging around the outfield and leaving it up to the CF to get to the ball. How can you say it doesn't really matter? Gimme a break. The only reason Manny has the wall mastered is because he spends a ton of his time between innings in there doing stupid shit and "being Manny".

Also, not to mention, I'm sure Jason Bay will actually run out a ground ball. Have you seen the way he's been playing lately? He's probably giving like.. 30%. He doesn't try to run out a ground ball to First Base during a no hitter, doesn't run out a double play ball hardly ever, been poppin' off at the mouth to the media... so many problems. I think it's a mixture of the head office being sick and tired of dealing with him, and want someone to come in and actually play.

As far as the contract issues, I don't really know that much about that stuff. D: But you're probably thinking "Why not ride the wave of Manny, Ortiz, and Beckett" until the end? Well, I don't think so. I think it was getting to the point where you'd think he'd just dog it the rest of the year, and that would be horrible. Losing the two 1st Rounders they could've gotten next year though (I think) does suck.

Finally, I do think team chemistry can take you so far. The Red Sox team chemistry has always been fun to see, whether you hate them or not. People are starting to hate them more and more (not just Yankee fans) because they are winning. That's what happens when teams start winning; you start hating them. Yeah, I agree that they put up with him since he is such a great hitter, but enough is enough. He acts like a child. Bay is a good hitter, but he's not a great hitter. I don't think they will miss him as much as you think though with the line-up they'll still put out there. Bay will get a lot of chances to hit with RISP, and I think he'll like it in Fenway.

[Cephius]

Bay*

Freudian slip Was thinking that Nady is in NY as a supplemental player, while Bay is going to always be compared to Manny.

Now to get to disecting your disagreement as usual. Jason Bay may not be used to the pressure situations, but no one is ever truly used to pressure situations. While Manny was pretty damn good under pressure, he was too much of a negative presence all and all. Jason Bay, being in Boston I think, will get used to the pressure he has to deal with. It's a business. He knows what he'll have to do. There will be growing pains I'm sure, just like with Tex's 0-4 night last night against Boston, but I think he'll be alright.

Bay is going from a town that couldn't care less about baseball to a town that thrives on it. All large-market teams have had players come over and just not get it done under the bright lights. You can't just discount this possibility.

Also, how was Manny a negative presence outside of the last 2 months? He couldn't have been that bad.. there's no way the Red Sox win either of their recent world series without him. This isn't the first time they tried to trade him, just the first time they didn't back out of it. It doesn't change how much Manny means to the team.

Secondly... what? His fielding IS that big of an issue. Just because he has a giant wall to play the ball off of, it'll be completely different when he can actually stop a ground ball without falling on his ass, and without him lollygagging around the outfield and leaving it up to the CF to get to the ball. How can you say it doesn't really matter? Gimme a break. The only reason Manny has the wall mastered is because he spends a ton of his time between innings in there doing stupid shit and "being Manny".

You're basing your opinion of Manny's defense on one play you saw on SportsCenter. I see Manny several times a year and I'm telling you, no one played the Green Monster better than he did. It's not easy to learn how balls bounce off that thing.

Also, not to mention, I'm sure Jason Bay will actually run out a ground ball. Have you seen the way he's been playing lately? He's probably giving like.. 30%. He doesn't try to run out a ground ball to First Base during a no hitter, doesn't run out a double play ball hardly ever, been poppin' off at the mouth to the media... so many problems. I think it's a mixture of the head office being sick and tired of dealing with him, and want someone to come in and actually play.

No argument here, Manny never hustled. But again, he never did, and for all Manny's stupid shit, the Red Sox never traded him because he could hit the piss out of a baseball and do it when they needed it the most.

Finally, I do think team chemistry can take you so far. The Red Sox team chemistry has always been fun to see, whether you hate them or not. People are starting to hate them more and more (not just Yankee fans) because they are winning. That's what happens when teams start winning; you start hating them. Yeah, I agree that they put up with him since he is such a great hitter, but enough is enough. He acts like a child. Bay is a good hitter, but he's not a great hitter. I don't think they will miss him as much as you think though with the line-up they'll still put out there. Bay will get a lot of chances to hit with RISP, and I think he'll like it in Fenway.

I never denied that the Sox had team chemistry. I think Terry Francona is probably one of the best manager in baseball because of how he handles things in that clubhouse. But chemistry is no substitution for god-given ability. I don't expect Bay to be a bust or anything, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Sox are much weaker offensively now than they were 3 hours ago.

[fren.]

No one's gonna put up the numbers Manny has at Yankee stadium as a visitor; Bay's good, but I don't consider him a threat at all right now. They did get a bit weaker this year and improved upon something that was already a strength, but good trade for the future.

The Green Monster might help his numbers, but I wouldn't pencil him as a sure thing yet. I'm hoping it's Edgar Renteria part dos.

and small small small sample size, but Bay look like complete shit when the Pirates visited the Stadium last year. Both on the field and offensively.

[Headspace]

Junior :'(

[Reality]

Junior :'(

i hope we can get him and thome their well deserved rings

[Kurp]

That was a pretty crazy 7th and on in the White Sox/Twins game last night. I love it when Gardenhire gets all riled up, and last night's tirade was great. It was even better when Ozzie Guillen flipped out a bit later. They're definitely my favorite two managers.

The Twins are just a half game out now, yo.

edit: Also, Griffey playing for the White Sox sucks. He's one of my favorite players and now he's playing on a team I'm obligated to hate.

[Reality]

That was a pretty crazy 7th and on in the White Sox/Twins game last night. I love it when Gardenhire gets all riled up, and last night's tirade was great. It was even better when Ozzie Guillen flipped out a bit later. They're definitely my favorite two managers.

The Twins are just a half game out now, yo.

edit: Also, Griffey playing for the White Sox sucks. He's one of my favorite players and now he's playing on a team I'm obligated to hate.

2-3, 2 Singles, BB, 2 RBI

[Akiyama]

Good night for Jr. Bay didn't have a bad night either. 1-3 3B, 2 walks, 2 runs scored, and a good catch in the OF. Pretty sure Manny doesn't make that play.

[Viq]

Manny would've made that play. There were two things he was great at in LF at Fenway: playing balls of the wall to throw them in quickly, and sliding in for balls by the line. Factor in that Manny would've started off a solid 4-5 feet shallower than Bay did, and he'd have had that.

[Akiyama]

The last time I remember him making a sliding play at the ball, he completely missed it, went back for the ball, and promptly fell on his ass on top of the ball. I suppose that taints my image of him.

[Viq]

That was in Anaheim, and it got replayed about a thousand times. Manny's sliding catches at Fenway rarely ever got replayed outside of the game broadcast.