immunizations and autism?

[Toth]

I work with many autistic individuals and as a behavioral specialist, I have been able to examine many of their backgrounds. Very few of these individuals were given the same immunizations at the same times. Granted, there may indeed be a slight link, but as for now, there is nothing substantial to support it.

[Yensho]

Actually, when a baby is first born, it carries the antibodies that it was provided in the placenta. Those stay with it for awhile, but wear off soon, since it is no longer receiving nutrients from it. However, the mother's breastmilk continues to transfer antibodies, protecting the baby for up to 6 months. So, giving a baby a vaccine at 4 months still isn't dangerous, because while the majority of the infection is fought off by the mother's immune system, the babies developing immune system still develops the protection against whatever virus it is.

The argument against thimerosal is completely devoid of true facts. Most of it's already been said (only correlation, increasing rates after thimerosal was removed), but what's worse is that, these parents who think it was mercury that caused their child's autism, are putting them through chelation therapy (an alternative medicine therapy used to remove heavy metals, although no support has been found that it actually works), and a kid died from it.

Anyway, I will simply repeat what others have said, the risks for not getting vaccinated are MUCH greater than those getting vaccinated. There really shouldn't be children who die from diphtheria, polio, pertussis, or whatever else there is a vaccine for.

[Meilyn]

Short answer: completely false.

Long answer: similar to what has been said above. We looked at this in my Epidemiology class, reading 15 papers on it and synthesizing a response. Essentially, there have been one or two low-power, low-sample size, questionable-method studies which have shown an association (which is NOT causation). However, much larger and more robust cohort studies have shown a lack of association. Overall, no case can be made for any causal relationship.

In the public health field, the public reaction to this is a joke. People do not understand epidemiological or statistical methods (understandably) and are more easily swayed by a vocal minority. I can't blame the parents too much, its much easier to blame something as unfortunate as Autism on outside forces. Realistically, it could just as easily be the mother eating too much mercury in her diet (such as fish/seafood) or living in an urban environment. It could just be bad luck with genetic makeup, and increasing medical care has allowed an otherwise selected-against genotype to become more prevalent. Furthermore, the amounts of mercury in the vaccines was very small, and even if many vaccines were given simultaneously would be negligent. Seriously the toddler probably picks up as much of it just being outside, with air and ground pollution being what it is in most urban settings.

All the hooplah about this so-called link is doing kids a disservice in multiple ways. First, it is lowering vaccination rates, which allows for diseases to spread. Secondly, it throws the eye of the public away from funding research that matters--we don't know what is causing rising Autism rates, but we KNOW it isn't vaccinations, research needs to be better supported to look at other potential causes. Thirdly, it villifies governmental health authorities and undermines its authority to make health recommendations. Everyone in the public health field knows this is bubkis, but some people just refuse to listen.

tl;dr = don't believe the hype

[Nystul]

So in a nutshell, this is basically being propagated on the "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?" mentality? Awesome.

[Correction]

So in a nutshell, this is basically being propagated on the "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?" mentality? Awesome.

And by corrolary the 'stupid, loud people outnumber the relatively quiet, smart people on the news' Law of Media.

[Nystul]

squeaky wheel gets ya greasin

[archibaldcrane]

You have to understand that parents of autistic children understandably feel extreme strain in their lives and helplessness as they watch an otherwise healthy child regress mentally into a permanent child-like state for no apparent reason.

Something, somehow, causes this to happen to children, whether it is an internal brain fuckup or caused by some external force, and no one knows. These parents are looking for something, anything, to help make sense of what happened to their kid.

They're wrong here about immunizations, but I still feel sympathy for their desperation.

[Edgie]

I cant say that I know anything to be factual, however I work with someone whos son was "perfectly fine" and responsive until a doctor visit for shots and next thing you know the kids a step up from a veggitable...

I was/am a little scared of what might happen to my daughter whenever we go for shots, its just not something I really want to deal with.

[Alleya]

I cant say that I know anything to be factual, however I work with someone whos son was "perfectly fine" and responsive until a doctor visit for shots and next thing you know the kids a step up from a veggitable...

I was/am a little scared of what might happen to my daughter whenever we go for shots, its just not something I really want to deal with.

Think about what's more likely to happen if you don't. Endless weeks in agony and pain, possibly ending in death, all of it wholly preventable.

[Elesirdur]

Short answer: completely false.

Long answer: similar to what has been said above. We looked at this in my Epidemiology class, reading 15 papers on it and synthesizing a response. Essentially, there have been one or two low-power, low-sample size, questionable-method studies which have shown an association (which is NOT causation). However, much larger and more robust cohort studies have shown a lack of association. Overall, no case can be made for any causal relationship.

In the public health field, the public reaction to this is a joke. People do not understand epidemiological or statistical methods (understandably) and are more easily swayed by a vocal minority. I can't blame the parents too much, its much easier to blame something as unfortunate as Autism on outside forces. Realistically, it could just as easily be the mother eating too much mercury in her diet (such as fish/seafood) or living in an urban environment. It could just be bad luck with genetic makeup, and increasing medical care has allowed an otherwise selected-against genotype to become more prevalent. Furthermore, the amounts of mercury in the vaccines was very small, and even if many vaccines were given simultaneously would be negligent. Seriously the toddler probably picks up as much of it just being outside, with air and ground pollution being what it is in most urban settings.

All the hooplah about this so-called link is doing kids a disservice in multiple ways. First, it is lowering vaccination rates, which allows for diseases to spread. Secondly, it throws the eye of the public away from funding research that matters--we don't know what is causing rising Autism rates, but we KNOW it isn't vaccinations, research needs to be better supported to look at other potential causes. Thirdly, it villifies governmental health authorities and undermines its authority to make health recommendations. Everyone in the public health field knows this is bubkis, but some people just refuse to listen.

tl;dr = don't believe the hype

Wanted to quote for a nice post; I take it you're in a pre-Med/Medical/Nursing program? I also very much agree with the political effect and the optics of this kind of situation. Being a public policy wonk myself I understand your frustration of how total bullshit can be picked up by the media or special interest groups to create unwarranted backlash against public organizations that really do have the best interests of a jurisdiction's citizens in mind.

The thing that always bugs me about contentious issues like this one, where data is being dug up from 50 years in the past, is that I'm betting diagnosis rates for autism have increased dramatically because more doctors and pediatritians actually know what autism is and how to diagnose it. That along could account for skewing the statistics, and that's the kind of information that's often left out of mass-media discussions of scientific studies; even if the author(s) admit to that being a contributing factor.

A similar example, from personal family experience, is celiac disorder (or disease depending on what you read). Fifty years ago, hardly any doctors outside of gastrointestinal specialists had even heard of celiac disorder. Now it's a pretty common thing that just about any primary care GP would know about when doing diagnosis for referrals as a possibility. Rates of diagnosis are probably going up each year not necessairly because of a genetic or mass dietary shift, but that doctors can now determine a possible cause for the, quite unpleasant, symptoms of celiac disorder, and then confirm it with diagnostic testing.

[Weeks]

Fun fact: the US has the highest infant immunization rate, it also has the highest autism rate.

Hannah Montana causes autism. Do I need to show my work?

[Blarg]

Autism is not caused by immunizations at all and that is just rediculous, everyone knows its caused by having too many bad body Thetans in your body.

[Yensho]

Autism is not caused by immunizations at all and that is just rediculous, everyone knows its caused by having too many bad body Thetans in your body.

Of course! It so obvious now! I mean, do you ever see autistic Scientologists? Nope, because they've all been through the very expensive whatever-it's-called therapy. Truly, sir, you are a genius.

[Meilyn]

Wanted to quote for a nice post; I take it you're in a pre-Med/Medical/Nursing program? I also very much agree with the political effect and the optics of this kind of situation. Being a public policy wonk myself I understand your frustration of how total bullshit can be picked up by the media or special interest groups to create unwarranted backlash against public organizations that really do have the best interests of a jurisdiction's citizens in mind.

Thanks. I graduate next week with my Master of Public Health, focus in Biostatistics & Epidemiology. This fall I'll be starting work on a PhD in Public Health Genetics. It's fascinating stuff, you get to play around with all sorts of different fields and influences, I love the big picture approach to medicine. And you are correct to bring up detection bias, that is certainly something that must be assessed when evaluating for causation.

I cant say that I know anything to be factual, however I work with someone whos son was "perfectly fine" and responsive until a doctor visit for shots and next thing you know the kids a step up from a veggitable...

I was/am a little scared of what might happen to my daughter whenever we go for shots, its just not something I really want to deal with.

One thing to think about (and I don't know the case you're talking about, so speaking generally), is that people tend to remember breaks in the routine, rather than normal everyday events. They also tend to think of something in the short term rather than the long. For example, in my outbreaks investigation course, we've had people be certain that the restaurant they ate at a couple hours earlier was what made them sick. Problem is, the bug they ate had a 24 hour incubation period, and it was actually another place they had eaten at the day before (this is often the case, we like to ask where someone ate 24-48 hours before because its usually not so immediate of a reaction). The same is likely the case with people attributing the shots to Autism--its an uncommon event that you remember (especially since it is recorded), so is more likely to be noticed. This gets further exacerbated due to the media attention this link gets, as parents will now have a preconceived notion of what happened and why (thus ignoring long-term exposures in favor of a single episode). The timing of the development of Autism and vaccinations is also an interesting potential source of bias here, since they both would likely occur independently in the early years of life, irregardless of the timing of the other. Thus while they are not linked, they could appear to be if you were only looking at what was happening at a certain time. Both for the development and treatment of disease, we tend to think of the acute rather than the chronic. Its an unfortunate error in thinking that needs to be addressed, especially if we are to move towards a wellness and prevention model of health rather than the current reactionary disease model.

Ultimately, you will have to make your own decision regarding vaccinating your child, but my recommendation would be to do so. The proven benefits far outweigh the unproven risks, both individually and societally.

[Septimus]

Fun fact: the US has the highest infant immunization rate, it also has the highest autism rate.

Hannah Montana causes autism. Do I need to show my work?

Nice try, but wrong. Hannah Montana only causes massive brain atrophy and tone-deafness leading to an inability to distinguish prepackaged corporate crap from real music.

Autism is not caused by immunizations at all and that is just rediculous, everyone knows its caused by having too many bad body Thetans in your body.

Of course! It so obvious now! I mean, do you ever see autistic Scientologists?* Nope, because they've all been through the very expensive whatever-it's-called therapy. Truly, sir, you are a genius.

* Ignore John Travolta's one kid.

[Kiyuan98]

Fun fact: the US has the highest infant immunization rate, it also has the highest autism rate.

Hannah Montana causes autism. Do I need to show my work?

rofl'd hard

[Missykitty]

Ok.. gotta add my 2 cents here. I am the mom of two boys with Autism Spectrum Disorder. My other two boys do not have any symptoms of it. There are multiple components of this disorder which don't add up if you are going to blame it on vaccinations. Go to a meeting of parents of Autisic children and you will quickly notice that there are striking simularities in physical attibutes of their children. The majority of these children have large eyes, small noses, small ear canals (recurrent ear infections), small sinuses (recurrent sinus infections), oversized tongues (adds to difficulties in talking and eatting) and oversized tonsils (leading to choking and sleep apnea). My kids are in genetic testing research at St. Vincent's Children's Hospital.

When my 13 yr old was diagnosed at age 3, there was little information, support or therapys available. The doctor told me he was autistic, handed me a pamplet and said "Good Luck". I'm happy to say that now he's a 7th grader, going to a regular middle school taking some advanced classes and for the most part is just a regular pain in the butt early teenage boy teeming with testosterone. When my youngest was 1, a screening at his pediatrician flagged some possible problems. He began speech therapy at 15 months, and shortly after eatting and occupational therapy. He's now 4 and is still behind but doing well. There is so much more support out there now and I'm very grateful for it.

I agree that all the news coverage over the whole vaccinations=autism thing is taking away from placing money into researchers hands who might find a true cause or possible treatments. There might indeed be some trigger for a few of these children who suddenly start to regress after shots. Or it might be they suffered a seizure or other reaction. But, most likely..parents are just mislead when they are just searching for some reason as to why. It is a difficult diagonsis to live with. Most mothers of autistic children are divorced. My first husband couldn't handle it.

Well.. there are my two cents.. take it for whatcha will.

[Nystul]

I think a lot of it has to do with how the diagnosis period and the time when you get the shots are basically the same time. Kids are fine until 1-2, they get shots, they go to the doc who's looking for odd things after the shots just in case and "oh, he might be autistic."

I appreciate your perspective- the physical traits isn't something I'd seen discussed before, an interesting part of the puzzle. Also, I think it's hard for people in the general public to deal with autistics- we forget that mentally autistic people are actually frequently above average in intelligence, they just struggle with communication.

This kind of knee jerk reactionism is common in science and popular culture. Years ago, a small study with low confidence showed that DDT might have some carcinogenic properties. An environmentalist, of course, took the notion and ran with it. Rather than considering the reality of the situation, how it was used, where in the world it was used, what would be used instead, and whether or not it really causes cancer (protip- to this day there isn't any good evidence to that fact). Instead, rabble rousing by a minority got the government to ban the production and use of the stuff and prevented the import of foods from countries that used it. Funny thing about DDT- it was as far as pesticides go - cheap, easy to use, environmentally sound (it degraded fast), and safe to handle with little to no protection. Now, the impact here in the US wasn't significant because we could afford safe, more expensive alternatives. But since we wouldn't buy produce from places that used DDT, that meant places in central/south America and Southeast Asia had to change (especially those that widely used DDT to control mosquitos that carried malaria)...and they couldn't afford better products. These places were relegated to using cheap and VERY dangerous pesticides, or nothing at all. End result: Thousands of workers died from poisoning from exposure because they were used to handling DDT and tried to handle the new stuff in the same way. Thousands of people died from poisoning from tainted water because of increased toxic runoff. Thousands more suffered from malaria.

I worry about a similar knee-jerk reaction possible here that has even worse consequences. There has been around a 3% drop in immunizations in America, and that doesn't seem like a lot but already we're seeing significant increases and outbreaks of diseases that haven't been seen here for 50 years. People are irrationally fearing a possible risk to their own health and instead opting to go with a known risk to their children and everyone around them! It is just irresponsible. I understand that parents can be frustrated and they want to find a blame for this aside from chance or their own actions, but we can't form public policy and health policy on these kinds of emotions.

[Darus Grey]

I think when discussing autism it's really important to differentiate between them. There are dozens of disorders lumped into autism, your regressions tend to be high functioning autistics(which essentially means they're the smartest ones).

I guess on an emotional level is bothers me when people suggest "Treatments" or "Cures" for it. Well logically I know most people mean well and mean that kinda thing specifically towards regression symptoms, the general resentment that autism is something that needs curing is disrespectful to the huge numbers of people who have positive experiences with it.

I'm somewhat fortunate that every male in my close family is autistic(coincidently? every single one of us is an engineer or scientist, we even have our own http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haag%27s_theorem family named quantum theory!).
Because easily the most jarring aspect of it is your alien mindset...you simply cannot connect in a meaningful way with "normal" people. You don't think like them, you don't have the same goals, same needs, you think about everything in a different way. I was a problem child when I was raised primarily by my mother...and then settled right down when I went to live with my father. Having that support network of people who *really* understand what is going on with you is a tremendous help.

It feels a lot like having schizophrenia. In order to act "normal" you have to be able to project a personality onto yourself that acts in a way you've formulated analytically to be "normal", you learn to express and read emotions based on the mindset you've pre-determined. It's a lot like playing an RPG for your entire life, you can get really good at it, but at the end of the day you feel this disconnect, since you've been living your life from a third-person perspective just to make it functional.

I always found it strange parents would be glad when their autistic children are acting "normal"...they're probably incredibly unhappy having to be doing that.

[archibaldcrane]

Funny thing about DDT- it was as far as pesticides go - cheap, easy to use, environmentally sound (it degraded fast), and safe to handle with little to no protection.

DDT is a toxicant across a certain range of phyla. In particular, DDT is a major reason for the decline of the bald eagle in the 1950s and 1960s as well as the brown pelican and the peregrine falcon. DDT and its breakdown products are toxic to embryos and can disrupt calcium absorption, thereby impairing eggshell quality.

Tell it to the birds.