LBC nerfing hypothesis.

[Dankster]

I didnt believe the charoit weakening either at first. But if you ever have tryd to SE club LBC you would see that you do gimped dmg while taking dmg equal to the missing dmg between what your hit should be and what it is. Now when we took some new ppl with us on one of our runs they told us about the chariot weaking defense by killing, we had tons of time so i said go for it. When we engaged LBC we really didnt notice a huge difference cause we 6 man'd that nite, and only had a mnk and blm DDing. I then 2hr'd SEBW to see if it allowed me do full dmg and not take dmg, and it did. Pretty much told me 100% that killling that charoit works, we havent killed it since because we have absolutely no issues with him the way he is.

[Kaisho]

I believe that the individual Archaic Gear or some combination of Gear rooms or wings may have specific effects on Homing Missile. Different people have reported different effects from Homing Missile when they have killed 9/10 or fewer of the Gear. Most recently, we killed one Gear in the first room, then we had one Gear warp out, then killed the other 8. This caused Homing Missile to have it's normal effect (full damage and hate reset) on one person but no AoE except for a small amount of normal nerfed splash damage.

This same exact thing happened for my group during our last Bhaflau run.

I've been looking into killing the 4th floor archaic chariot. Every time my group runs past that room the triples are always close to the chariot. What's the most safe and fast way you guys pull the chariot? Does this involve killing some of the triples first?

[Kaylia]

I believe that the individual Archaic Gear or some combination of Gear rooms or wings may have specific effects on Homing Missile. Different people have reported different effects from Homing Missile when they have killed 9/10 or fewer of the Gear. Most recently, we killed one Gear in the first room, then we had one Gear warp out, then killed the other 8. This caused Homing Missile to have it's normal effect (full damage and hate reset) on one person but no AoE except for a small amount of normal nerfed splash damage.

This same exact thing happened for my group during our last Bhaflau run.

I've been looking into killing the 4th floor archaic chariot. Every time my group runs past that room the triples are always close to the chariot. What's the most safe and fast way you guys pull the chariot? Does this involve killing some of the triples first?

Have your thief aggro everything and flee to portal. Gears will usually deaggro. If there is gears ahead you don't want to warp, you can probably do the opposite and have your thief pull them to entrance

[aurik]

I didnt believe the charoit weakening either at first. But if you ever have tryd to SE club LBC you would see that you do gimped dmg while taking dmg equal to the missing dmg between what your hit should be and what it is. Now when we took some new ppl with us on one of our runs they told us about the chariot weaking defense by killing, we had tons of time so i said go for it. When we engaged LBC we really didnt notice a huge difference cause we 6 man'd that nite, and only had a mnk and blm DDing. I then 2hr'd SEBW to see if it allowed me do full dmg and not take dmg, and it did. Pretty much told me 100% that killling that charoit works, we havent killed it since because we have absolutely no issues with him the way he is.

have any screenshots of before/after?

[ringthree]

[quote=aurik]

Chariot on West side decreases defense, magic defense and evasion. East is supposed to decrease accuracy, attack and damage.

Still no proof of this as far as I know.

Proof of which? Of East Chariot? Or of both? If you kill West Chariot, it's pretty obvious of the change, my group usually kills LBC in about 8 minutes, the two times we have killed West Chariot it has been under 5 minutes, with the most recent time being right about 4 minutes.

I can't really think of a good way to prove it outside of it just being really obvious when you do it. I could try to parse it after killing the West Chariot, but I don't know how helpful that is going to be because I wouldn't have a baseline to compare it to, and after my group has seen how weak it is after killing the West Chariot it is going to be hard to convince them not to kill it to get a new baseline.

If you just mean East Chariot, I suppose that I could get my group to try to do east side, but again it might be tough to convince them to do that. I literally haven't done the east side of Bhaflau since the day Salvage was released.

It's not proof until you've provided a parse. "Obvious" is how directional/moonphase/elemental-resistance theories get started.

I think that standard is a bit ridiculous, because even a parse won't prove anything without a doubt. A parse can only be interpreted like anything else, its just another tool for examining evidence, it does not provide absolute proof.

If you still doubt it, I would suggest trying it, because the difference is clear. I am not saying that it is without a doubt. Obviously it is not. If you want to say that it still hasn't been "proven" thats fine, but to suggest that it is "unproven" without at least some kind of evidence to the opposite is just as bad. There are no real burdens of proof for one side or the other. I mean if you don't want to kill the Archaic Chariot then by all means, skip it. I just think it is at least beneficial to bring it up here for people that want to try it.

If you show a parse with like, 80% accuracy vs 95% accuracy for the melees with the same jobs/songs/food/gear, that's pretty conclusive.

It's unproven precisely because people have been saying it for ages, but never posted any evidence. Just like crafting compasses. Eventually people accept them as true, but nobody can really say why it's true.

As for trying it myself, we did like 40 bhaflau runs last year and I can say I've never really noticed that effect. We're capped on boss drops, have been for a long time, so we generally don't kill them.[/quote:1t66ir4t]

You never noticed an effect after killing the Archaic Chariot on the west side? Maybe it's because you have a relic, don't know. For everyone that I have talked to the difference in, at very least, damage and kill time is pretty radical.

Though observational and anecdotal evidence is obviously not as strong as parsing evidence, neither will "prove" anything or disprove anything either. Looking for absolute "proof" for something like this is kind of irrelevant, but unlike your comparison to crafting, the observational data is much stronger. Kill time is an obvious indicator, as is damage per hit. I am in no way suggesting that I know how much its defense or evasion or anything is decreased, but there is at least enough evidence currently to suggest that it could be helpful.

Like I said, I doubt I will be able to parse another LBC without killing the Archaic Chariot, but we can all make our own decisions on how we do Salvage. If you don't think it helps then skip it. I can try to parse a LBC with the Archaic Chariot killed and see the higher damage per hit, etc. Probably will do another Bhaflau tonight or tomorrow.

[ringthree]

I believe that the individual Archaic Gear or some combination of Gear rooms or wings may have specific effects on Homing Missile. Different people have reported different effects from Homing Missile when they have killed 9/10 or fewer of the Gear. Most recently, we killed one Gear in the first room, then we had one Gear warp out, then killed the other 8. This caused Homing Missile to have it's normal effect (full damage and hate reset) on one person but no AoE except for a small amount of normal nerfed splash damage.

This same exact thing happened for my group during our last Bhaflau run.

I've been looking into killing the 4th floor archaic chariot. Every time my group runs past that room the triples are always close to the chariot. What's the most safe and fast way you guys pull the chariot? Does this involve killing some of the triples first?

We just pull the Archaic Chariot and sleep any links, killing them after. You can clean pull the Archaic Chariot though.

[BlackMoomba]

If the pull doesn't go clean, our Thf just ends up sac pulling.

[Dankster]

I didnt believe the charoit weakening either at first. But if you ever have tryd to SE club LBC you would see that you do gimped dmg while taking dmg equal to the missing dmg between what your hit should be and what it is. Now when we took some new ppl with us on one of our runs they told us about the chariot weaking defense by killing, we had tons of time so i said go for it. When we engaged LBC we really didnt notice a huge difference cause we 6 man'd that nite, and only had a mnk and blm DDing. I then 2hr'd SEBW to see if it allowed me do full dmg and not take dmg, and it did. Pretty much told me 100% that killling that charoit works, we havent killed it since because we have absolutely no issues with him the way he is.

have any screenshots of before/after?

Didnt take any at the time, didnt think/care much about it. I will try and remember to take some the next 2 times we go. One with and without the chariot killed. But! if our next kill drops ares and morrigan 25 bodies..... we wont be fighting LBC again for a long long time.

[aurik]

You never noticed an effect after killing the Archaic Chariot on the west side? Maybe it's because you have a relic, don't know. For everyone that I have talked to the difference in, at very least, damage and kill time is pretty radical.

Though observational and anecdotal evidence is obviously not as strong as parsing evidence, neither will "prove" anything or disprove anything either. Looking for absolute "proof" for something like this is kind of irrelevant, but unlike your comparison to crafting, the observational data is much stronger. Kill time is an obvious indicator, as is damage per hit. I am in no way suggesting that I know how much its defense or evasion or anything is decreased, but there is at least enough evidence currently to suggest that it could be helpful.

Like I said, I doubt I will be able to parse another LBC without killing the Archaic Chariot, but we can all make our own decisions on how we do Salvage. If you don't think it helps then skip it. I can try to parse a LBC with the Archaic Chariot killed and see the higher damage per hit, etc. Probably will do another Bhaflau tonight or tomorrow.

Kill time is not a good indicator. Gear unlocks, medicine loads, and whether or not you have fully neutered homing missiles drastically affects kill speed. A group with 4+ fully dressed heavy DDs toting revitalizers will kill a ton faster than those runs where drops are shit and half the group is fighting with locked hp, missing gear, using only 2 tank-DDs for damage.

A parse should very easily prove that there is a difference: at the very least the accuracy score should be significantly different with no other explanation, since we know how to adjust expected accuracy for variations in gear/songs. I'm just skeptical because 12 months after the "archaic chariot = nerf" was initially suggested, nobody has posted any proof whatsoever.

[Darkhelmet]

Parsing for proof is not ridiculous. Parsing and screenshots are really the only options we have to make a rumor a fact.

It's not that I don't believe anything that anyone says, but how many times have we all been burned by "this guy says it, so it must be true"?

I've been pretty damn sure of myself in this game, IRL, etc, only to find out later that I was wrong. It happens.. not saying this rumor is totally false at all, but a parse would be easy to look at average damage per hit, average ws damage, melee accuracy, etc. Now, just convincing your group to do one thing or another is a different story.

[ringthree]

Parsing for proof is not ridiculous. Parsing and screenshots are really the only options we have to make a rumor a fact.

It's not that I don't believe anything that anyone says, but how many times have we all been burned by "this guy says it, so it must be true"?

I've been pretty damn sure of myself in this game, IRL, etc, only to find out later that I was wrong. It happens.. not saying this rumor is totally false at all, but a parse would be easy to look at average damage per hit, average ws damage, melee accuracy, etc. Now, just convincing your group to do one thing or another is a different story.

I didn't say that parsing for proof was ridiculous, I said that Aurik's standard of "proof" isn't really absolute proof either because parses are always up for interpretation.

Like I said, if you don't want to do it, then don't. I am not saying its some kind of iron law of FFXI, but I have seen enough personal evidence to justify killing Archaic Chariot every time that we go.

[ringthree]

You never noticed an effect after killing the Archaic Chariot on the west side? Maybe it's because you have a relic, don't know. For everyone that I have talked to the difference in, at very least, damage and kill time is pretty radical.

Though observational and anecdotal evidence is obviously not as strong as parsing evidence, neither will "prove" anything or disprove anything either. Looking for absolute "proof" for something like this is kind of irrelevant, but unlike your comparison to crafting, the observational data is much stronger. Kill time is an obvious indicator, as is damage per hit. I am in no way suggesting that I know how much its defense or evasion or anything is decreased, but there is at least enough evidence currently to suggest that it could be helpful.

Like I said, I doubt I will be able to parse another LBC without killing the Archaic Chariot, but we can all make our own decisions on how we do Salvage. If you don't think it helps then skip it. I can try to parse a LBC with the Archaic Chariot killed and see the higher damage per hit, etc. Probably will do another Bhaflau tonight or tomorrow.

Kill time is not a good indicator. Gear unlocks, medicine loads, and whether or not you have fully neutered homing missiles drastically affects kill speed. A group with 4+ fully dressed heavy DDs toting revitalizers will kill a ton faster than those runs where drops are shit and half the group is fighting with locked hp, missing gear, using only 2 tank-DDs for damage.

I don't know about you, but to me this statement is so obvious as to be irrelevant. I wouldn't even mention it if I didn't already know that the scenarios were similar. Besides, these conditions apply to any kill and would be evidence that parser results would not provide the definitive "proof" you are looking for either.

A parse should very easily prove that there is a difference: at the very least the accuracy score should be significantly different with no other explanation, since we know how to adjust expected accuracy for variations in gear/songs. I'm just skeptical because 12 months after the "archaic chariot = nerf" was initially suggested, nobody has posted any proof whatsoever.

Again, you have a very restrictive view of "proof". The variations you mentioned above will definitely undercut the reliability of any parse of LBC. I am not so adamant in demanding that people do it, just that it may save people some time if they want to do it. You seem kind of obsessed with dispelling any notion of its existence and yet have provided just the same level of anecdotal evidence that I have. /shrug

[aurik]

You never noticed an effect after killing the Archaic Chariot on the west side? Maybe it's because you have a relic, don't know. For everyone that I have talked to the difference in, at very least, damage and kill time is pretty radical.

Though observational and anecdotal evidence is obviously not as strong as parsing evidence, neither will "prove" anything or disprove anything either. Looking for absolute "proof" for something like this is kind of irrelevant, but unlike your comparison to crafting, the observational data is much stronger. Kill time is an obvious indicator, as is damage per hit. I am in no way suggesting that I know how much its defense or evasion or anything is decreased, but there is at least enough evidence currently to suggest that it could be helpful.

Like I said, I doubt I will be able to parse another LBC without killing the Archaic Chariot, but we can all make our own decisions on how we do Salvage. If you don't think it helps then skip it. I can try to parse a LBC with the Archaic Chariot killed and see the higher damage per hit, etc. Probably will do another Bhaflau tonight or tomorrow.

Kill time is not a good indicator. Gear unlocks, medicine loads, and whether or not you have fully neutered homing missiles drastically affects kill speed. A group with 4+ fully dressed heavy DDs toting revitalizers will kill a ton faster than those runs where drops are shit and half the group is fighting with locked hp, missing gear, using only 2 tank-DDs for damage.

I don't know about you, but to me this statement is so obvious as to be irrelevant. I wouldn't even mention it if I didn't already know that the scenarios were similar. Besides, these conditions apply to any kill and would be evidence that parser results would not provide the definitive "proof" you are looking for either.

Except that, at a minimum, parsed accuracy would be definitive proof of an evasion change in LBC: simply because we can enumerate all sources of accuracy and quantify, with respect to statistics, whether the parsed hit rate in the two situations is similar or different.

Kill times are heavily influenced by a whole lot more things that aren't easily quantified. Chariot double-attacking/zanshin more often, or spams discharge instead of nerfed HM / diffusion ray will change kill times drastically, medicines used, how much attention people are paying... It's very hard to enumerate that.

A parse should very easily prove that there is a difference: at the very least the accuracy score should be significantly different with no other explanation, since we know how to adjust expected accuracy for variations in gear/songs. I'm just skeptical because 12 months after the "archaic chariot = nerf" was initially suggested, nobody has posted any proof whatsoever.

Again, you have a very restrictive view of "proof". The variations you mentioned above will definitely undercut the reliability of any parse of LBC. I am not so adamant in demanding that people do it, just that it may save people some time if they want to do it. You seem kind of obsessed with dispelling any notion of its existence and yet have provided just the same level of anecdotal evidence that I have. /shrug

I'm not obsessed with dispelling any notion of it's existence. What I am obsessed with is dispelling voodoo knowledge that is based on ancient speculation rather than solid facts. And that's exactly what this is: back in Feb 07, Air's Salvage page had a bunch of wonky shit that supposedly affected the boss chariot, and so far 90% of it has panned out to be bullshit.

Again, we can enumerate exactly what affects hit rate%. So, we should be able to parse accuracy with/without killing the correct 4f chariot and this should prove whether killing the 4f chariot affects LBC's evasion.

[Yutuyu]

He's got a point. There are altogether too many ideas (in game and out) which float around and are taken as truth completely without substantiation. A parse is merely a scientific study of the relationship between killing the Archaic Chariot and LBC. Yes, how unlocked people are and how many people are beating on the mob will affect killspeed, but as long as all factors are recorded some control-element can be derived so that testing can occur.

I agree with you that killing the Chariot probably DOES have an effect, but what's the harm in actually knowing this from mathematical evidence instead of basing it on personal experience and opinion?

[Neosutra]

I heard if you Mijin Gakure Animated weapons, it will keep them from warping.

[ringthree]

He's got a point. There are altogether too many ideas (in game and out) which float around and are taken as truth completely without substantiation. A parse is merely a scientific study of the relationship between killing the Archaic Chariot and LBC. Yes, how unlocked people are and how many people are beating on the mob will affect killspeed, but as long as all factors are recorded some control-element can be derived so that testing can occur.

I agree with you that killing the Chariot probably DOES have an effect, but what's the harm in actually knowing this from mathematical evidence instead of basing it on personal experience and opinion?

There is no harm, of course. But there is equally no harm in just doing it and seeing for yourself either. ^.^/

[Lordwafik]

edit : Nvm.

retards will always be retards.

[Neosutra]

edit : Nvm.

retards will always be retards.

Was this at the animated weapon stab?

[Valyana]

The Souleater test sounds pretty definitive to me; it would indicate that LBC has -physical damage that was removed somehow.

[Veli]

Who cares about all this stuff anyway..The time it takes to kill the other mob vs the time saved doesn't add up..