Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

[Norellicus]

3-4-5-5-5 imo

[SamanosukeShiva]

HOLY SHIT @ Lv5 OVERWHELM

[Katlan]

Lol you people act like the game isn't getting to the point where they want everyone to be overpowered because theyre running out of ideas.

Where are my WHM melee buffs? WHM's need en-light (divine skill based)!

[Raen Ryong]

I missed the section of the update where any part of it only applied to SAM? I suppose they should've said "all jobs get group 2 merits expanded, except SAM"? This isn't specifically a SAM buff, just like this isn't specifically a RDM buff or a DRG or DRK buff. All of the merit categories were expanded and while this is better for some than others, that has nothing to do with what this update was trying to accomplish. And you're being retarded if you think that 2 years ago SE could predict which job should get which category 2 merits to make them more balanced 2+ years later when they decide to expand category 2 merits. Hell if you even remember, SAM wasn't all that hot back before Overwhelm was thrown in.

And seriously if you under-appreciate how good the DRK merits are any further I think you'd be better off playing a different job. Or another game. 25% haste will almost always be in full use, unless you have relic and/or walk around with Ace's/Dusk+1/Speed Belt/HomamLeg/HomamFeet, haste song, hasso, and more than one march 100% of the time. In which case you're pretty damn spoiled, and do not by any stretch of the imagination represent your average DRK.

Same thing applies for essentially giving DRK ~5-7% higher accuracy for 3/5ths of the time, or basically improving the hit-rate by ~4% overall. Which is enough to make meat look all the more attractive... And if you think the HP is a problem then you need to put some common sense in action, play smart, and hey maybe even use that 'cancel JA' function. You know, like a WAR or /WAR might do if they get a lot of hate with Berserk on? This isn't a scientific breakthrough here, its common sense. Almost all jobs make sacrifices for more offensive JAs, and work around them. Whining about it is proven NOT to be a method of doing this.

While this isn't specifically a SAM buff, they benefit hugely. I'm sure if DRK or RNG or another job got +10% WS potency people would find it quite overpowered. Let alone on the job with the highest WS output.

I don't under-appreciate them. 15% Desperate Blows is enough to cap me to 80% Haste in a supported situation as it is (even merit parties). An extra 10% will rarely benefit me. Muted Soul is nice, but it's nowhere near Overwhelm which is effective every time you WS, not 1 minute every 5~6 minutes. Diabolic Eye, yes you can turn it off, but you are still left with reduced HP, and strong TP moves will still oneshot you or come close to.

[Yutuyu]

First of all, this isn't a flat 10% WS increase for a fully merited SAM. It's less. Right now our WS damage is Base*1.15 if you have overwhelm fully merited. If that is boosted to Base*1.25 by full overwhelm merits that is actually at 1 - 1.25/1.15 damage increase or 8.6%.

My Experience with SAM WS has been:
First update, Gekko average: 1800
Second adjustment, Gekko average: 1200
Third adjustment, Gekko average: 800

Right now that 800 is on a fairly squishy mob (colibri) and with the lower ones cancelling out the DA'd ones; making 800 a fairly high normal Gekko (as if I had to ignore DA proc it'd probably be 700 average). If we take the 800 number and calculate in the 8.6% increase that's only 8.6*8 extra damages, or ~69. Oh noes, my Gekkos will go from 800 to 869!

The world is ENDING.

(by the way that's nothing compared to how much damage we lost on the third adjustment -- not that I think SAM needs more love, but we deserve something new to play with if all of the other jobs are getting it simply to keep us interested in the fucking game)

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

Lol you people act like the game isn't getting to the point where they want everyone to be overpowered because theyre running out of ideas.

Where are my WHM melee buffs? WHM's need en-light (divine skill based)!

whm and pld! pld is the new sam

[ronin sparthos]

Lol you people act like the game isn't getting to the point where they want everyone to be overpowered because theyre running out of ideas.

Where are my WHM melee buffs? PLD need en-light (divine skill based)!

D: Just so they can annoy the fuck outta everyone with the light-proc sfx.

[Ryko]

First of all, this isn't a flat 10% WS increase for a fully merited SAM. It's less. Right now our WS damage is Base*1.15 if you have overwhelm fully merited. If that is boosted to Base*1.25 by full overwhelm merits that is actually at 1 - 1.25/1.15 damage increase or 8.6%.

My Experience with SAM WS has been:
First update, Gekko average: 1800
Second adjustment, Gekko average: 1200
Third adjustment, Gekko average: 800

Right now that 800 is on a fairly squishy mob (colibri) and with the lower ones cancelling out the DA'd ones; making 800 a fairly high normal Gekko (as if I had to ignore DA proc it'd probably be 700 average). If we take the 800 number and calculate in the 8.6% increase that's only 8.6*8 extra damages, or ~69. Oh noes, my Gekkos will go from 800 to 869!

The world is ENDING.

(by the way that's nothing compared to how much damage we lost on the third adjustment -- not that I think SAM needs more love, but we deserve something new to play with if all of the other jobs are getting it simply to keep us interested in the fucking game)

~70 Damage is not a "keep interest" sort of thing <_<

[Amastacia]

Sweet, lower Sange recast!

Update made of win, etc. etc. etc.

Oh wait...

Man, am I glad I'm leveling SAM. Not that NIN is getting any worse, but it sure as hell isn't getting any better, and everyone else is. I already have millions and millions of gear that mostly sits in my mog house, at least now I'll have a job to use it on.

...Except that I'll probably still be on RDM all the time, just like now. Oh well, at least Phalanx II will suck less and Slow II will be even more badass.

[kayn]

idk why ppl piss and moan about mele buffs so much.
the reality is that sams, wars, drks, and rngs, when well geared and meritted will all parse really close to each other.
even after this update, sam will not be the only mele job.
if you're set up right and being out parsed by 10%, you probably need to quit the game.

drg and mnk need some <3 though. i'd even go so far as to say they should buff nins mele side.

and if you want to complain when you're a top teir DD, go xp w/ a pup or a bst.

[Xanthe]

I don't know why people think differently but a DRK equivalent of Aggressor is pretty amazing for non-relic (and even those with relic), as in most situations you're not going to be capped on acc. And well it's just a fact that if you're not capped, then adding accuracy helps a lot. It doesn't matter if you're normally at 80% or 90% before it.

5:00 Deep Breathing will be pretty goddamn awesome.

Fixed. And that's if you forgo any merits in Strafe and Empathy.

Personally I'll recap Angon and put the remaining points in Strafe, so:
Angon 5/5
Strafe 3/3
Empathy 2/2

Any reason for capping Angon?

Honestly I can't think of a single situation for me where anything I Angon will live for almost 2 minutes, much less even like 30 seconds. I left it at 2/3 for that reason (which is probably where it will stay). At best I might throw in one more for just the full 1 minute, but past that seems silly. Might be good on like Cerb or Khim, but yeah I'm not usually DRG there so I guess it just applies for me.

Not that the other options are all too good though anyway... But I'll probably end up going like 3/5 Angon, 5/5 Empathy, and I guess 2/5 Deep Breathing.

The extra duration from going 5/5 Angon is more useful for a career DRG like myself instead of a part-timer. While the extra 30s duration is mostly wasted on zerg fights, it still comes in very handy for any fight that lasts greater than, well, 1 minute. Cerb, Khim, JoL, soloing, etc. are all good examples of getting full use of going 5/5 with it. Plus, it allows you to have fulltime defense down with just 2 DRGs instead of 3.

I'll likely be going 5/5 Deep Breathing as well, though I'd be interested to learn what would produce better damage over time - unresisted 360+ breaths every 5 minutes, or added damage from lower resist rates on Strafe. I tend to use /mage more than /melee, so Strafe is mainly wasted for me as is, but I'll get great use out of the 5:00 recast on Deep Breathing. Empathy has always seemed like nothing more than a toy to me, so I never bothered with it and probably won't now.

Mabubeezareel got it right on Angon. While any duration over a minute is usually wasted on zerg fights like Dynamis Lord or King Vinegarroon or in merits, the benefit shines through on the more drawn out fights that were stated. Solo fights, Gods, Jailers, ToAU HNMs, Salvage NMs all last at the very least 1:30 so you will definitely see some utility with taking Angon to 5/5. As also was stated, two coordinated DRGs can now maintain a rotation instead of three.

As for allocating the remaining merits, I've always had trouble justifying Deep Breathing over the other choices available. Even with a 5:00 timer I think an Empathy/Strafe combination would prove more useful since DB will only give you spike damage once every 5 minutes where Strafe will keep up your bottom line for every single WS in those 5 minutes. Being able to give your wyvern Protect and Shell (especially Shell V) in one action is also extremely useful and helps more in the long run for wyvern survivability than most people give credit for, not to mention the other buffs you can stick on it.

[Dantrag]

don't bring war up no one needs to know about war shhh

[RKenshin]

Granted there is a lot more to the game than that, but the issue is thus; on mobs you need the extra accuracy on, they're presumably very strong. Hence, taking hate with the HP reduction is very dangerous (Firespit?).

DRKs get so pissed off about SAMs cause every update SAM receives a boost and DRK a nerf (this time it's a comparative one).

This is extreme exaggeration. <.<

The only DRK adjustment that even comes to mind was the haste nerf, which was abso-fucking-lutely fucked up before it was fixed anyway. I invested a shitload in my zerg gear, my DRK's merits, and perfecting it... And in the end I'll still realize it was a viable choice for them to nerf it. And really nothing changed, I still go DRK to every zerg just as before. So does everyone else.

DRK has also obtained a lot of spells over updates, and criticize them all you want they're still something and they're still useful. Additionally Guillotine was also boosted way more than YGK.

The only thing that has changed recently for SAM is Sekkanoki, which is turning into the most over-rated 'damage ability' ever. It's fun and I love it, but you're kidding yourself if you think it offers a 'boost.' It offers no additional offensive capability at all for almost all SAMs, and in fact using it is weaker since it doesn't take Hagun's TP bonus into mind. Unless you really think that yet another chance of making a level 2 SC by yourself on SAM is really something worthwhile? In a game full of magic bursting strategies with DDs that wait for you to do this and don't interrupt you, right?! It's a toy JA with very little practical advantage outside of making SCs that no one in the game needs or wants anymore. With Amano it's different, but until every SAM has an Amano it doesn't really matter.

And, comparing Overwhelm with DRK merits is just silly. Yeah it's clear which is better, but does that give me a right to complain over how much cooler Souleater is than the measly Focus I get on MNK? Or Last Resort on DRK vs Berserk on WAR? Not really, all the jobs are different and this is just a fact. You make it sound like you'll only be happy until you have every good JA/trait on every job.

[sleekmotorwurkz]

Omg i completely forgot about aura steal
If they dont scale down the effect, yes aura steal will be 100%
gonna make JoL lots more fun

But I semi-agree with sath about the pld bitching. At first I read the update and thought it was friggin amazing, now i realize that any half assed tank with half assed support can probably keep shadows up at a decent rate. The question I have is will it be a dread spikes "mirror"? If so, the cast time is too long and the duration is too short and mp cost is too high to make it extremely useful. Though all in all I would equate it to those of us who worked hard for their merits in lufaise meadows or kuftal tunnel, just for ToAU to come around and let any half brained melee get to 75 and merited in a matter of weeks after account creation. I can just see myself saying "you know in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow, barefoot, to get to cerberus, and try to keep shadows up, before people realized how good brd/blm was, and before holy spikes made casting ichi a joke!" Though I suppose spellcast takes care of ichi casting anyway (One day ill figure out that damn plugin )

[Yutuyu]

I couldn't agree more about Sekkanoki. One thing a lot of people don't understand is that the more abilities SAM gets to dish out more damage in 1 shot, the less use we get out of having Hasso. More damage in spikes means hate more often and more time using Seigan...

[Ryko]

The only DRK adjustment that even comes to mind was the haste nerf, which was abso-fucking-lutely fucked up before it was fixed anyway. I invested a shitload in my zerg gear, my DRK's merits, and perfecting it... And in the end I'll still realize it was a viable choice for them to nerf it. And really nothing changed, I still go DRK to every zerg just as before. So does everyone else.

... with a single handed multihitter.

[RKenshin]

I don't own a KC anymore, I sold it within weeks before the nerf. Which in reality, should make me more pissed off than most seeing as I 100% regret it and wish I could get it back. But not like complaining about it will change anything.

I occasionally borrow one, but I rely on using Ridill otherwise (yeahyeah it's still a one-hand multihitter). Whether or not I have KC doesn't change that I go DRK for zerging.

But point is I don't see what's wrong in DRK needing a rare or more expensive weapon to double/triple+ most other decked melee's damage, with the only exception being a decked RNG. Which DRK will still beat. Even without the single hand multi-hitter, DRK will do more damage in 30s even using a RC than most decked melees.

[SamanosukeShiva]

well if u got amano, sekkanoki IS a big boost

[XanthePandy]

I couldn't agree more about Sekkanoki. One thing a lot of people don't understand is that the more abilities SAM gets to dish out more damage in 1 shot, the less use we get out of having Hasso. More damage in spikes means hate more often and more time Tanking and using Seigan...

[LD]

Honestly, I was hoping the total max would be 12 instead of 10 while leaving the individual max at 5. The mages with 6 G2s could upgrade everything twice and the rest of us could max out the best things and fool around with the other toys.

I am hoping the SCH merits (or merit 2) will have the haste spell. I'm thinking SCH will have something like,

Modus Veritas recast
Penury/Parsimony recast
Alacrity Celerity recast

etc etc. Boring ones.

I'm betting/hoping SCH get's 'Enhance Dark Arts' and 'Enhance Light Arts' as a G1 to give us 4 skill levels each upgrade. Probably also 'Charge recast'. They could do so much with G2s, I can't even speculate.

You get an extra minute duration, but at double the cost. Not to mention that you can get to 320 Enhancing skill (256 base, 16 from 8 merits, Warlock's Tights(+1) +15, Duelist's Gloves(+1) +15, Enhancing Torque +7, Merciful Cape +5, Augmenting Earring +3, Glamor Jupon +3) for 30 damage reduction.

Um...(320/25) + 1 + 15 = 28.8 :x

5 penance 3 invigorate 1 formless 1 mantra :roll:

What's even the point of Mantra? If people want a 4% boost that badly, you'd probably want to go all the way. It's all or nothing, imo.

Maxing penance is the best plan of action since there is never a time when it WONT be useful, especially now that it takes up more than half of its own recast. Soloing, low-man, large group, everything.



The KAJA (Kick Attacks Job Ability) is sounding like I imagined for the most part, but I wonder how much of a delay penalty we're getting and if the DMG bonus is worth it. Also, will the TP gained for Kicks be like Store TP or will it really act like a 2H and give an ungodly amount? -_-

PLD's new spell thing seems to be mostly a play at better PT invites after it starts to slack off in the 50's-60's, though it obviously also has applications in HNM. Increasing the Block Rate of an Aegis while reflecting all the damage absorbed back to your attacker...If this will ignore defense and resistances like I think it will and has even a decent recast, /NIN may not be in trouble, but /WAR will definitely come back stronger.

lolBRD.


BLU G2s are odd in that besides Assimilation, how much you think we will get out of this update depends on how you play the job. As invaluable as it is, people are currently overstating the importance of this Assimilation 'upgrade' in the BLU thread. Another 2 set points still doesn't get us anywhre near the 20 spell cap. As it is, lvl 5 Diffusion's recast is still twice as long as the longest duration spell it utilizes. As I predicted, lvl 5 Enchainment is much more appealing than lvl 3, but it requires at least 50TP to actually make use of it, so its application is questionable for things where you aren't meleeing. Convergence is impressive as a ES/Ebullience hybrid, but with the general weakness of magic nukes, it'll be seen as generally useless (or at least used primarily with debuffs.)


MNK may be fixed and SCH sure as hell doesn't NEED anything right now, but I'm worried about BLU and how it's still generally used as a SAM that needs to be refreshed.