Battle Adjustments (05/28/2008)

[Yutuyu]

So wait, you are telling me that it only gives you a 0.1 second advantage over not using windower stuff? Oh ho ho ho, i'll tell you something instead. I think you don't know how to use the tools Windower provides correctly Maybe you haven't realized the power that exact numbers have over aproximates. Want an example?

Ultima. I've seen Ultima's AoE move being stuned easily because everyone knows when it's gonna hit. The second you see the HP% at 80, you know what you'll be doing the next second. If you couldn't see the total HP%, you wouldn't be able to distinguish between 80% and 85% by just looking at a tiny health bar. That means that you either start randomly stunning or become slopier in the rest of the things you need to do.
More? I leveled BST (and i loved it) as solo before the exp reduction fix, so we had to release pets before kills. With the % HP thing i could easily see exactly how a badly landed rampage would take from a mob after a couple fights, meaning i could precisely know when to release without having a single chance of messing my kills and still being optimal instead of risking to either: a) Release and Rampage too early so i would depend on crits to kill or b) release to late and risk my pet landing a double attack crit and killing the prey for a 30% penalty.

And this is only for the little nifty thing that seeing the %HP is. There's so much more.

Is your argument that these are just "small little details?" You kidding me, right? If small details aren't important, why do RDMs or WARs push so much to get the most optimun gear? Are you gonna tell me that +4 extra MND or STR is "a little detail"? Use the same ruler for everything you do, else you are just having a two faced moral.

I honestly don't care if you want to kid yourself, windower does provide an advantage and the whole point of the argument was that the devs cannot and will not design mobs that consider such advantages.

I also don't care if everyone here and out wants to use all the windower bells, they are great, some are really stress saver, but at least have the bravery of accepting you do have an edge. "Nah, i could do without it" sounds like an addict talking about it's addiction before accepting it. Keep at it.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on windower quite well. I have no problem with people who use it. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that all of the benefits it offers don't provide a serious boost to your performance based on installing an illegal program; i.e. cheating. Accept that and state that you think that's okay, and I have nothing left to argue. People just don't want to look at the blatantly obvious truth because it's a detriment to their epeen and philosophy of personal superiority.

[Ryko]

I'm not reading your long ass fucking bible of a post if you can't bother to take 1 sentence of yours, 1 sentence of mine, connect them and not respond about something completely irrelevant. No one stated windower wasnt an advantage, so you can either put your dukes down since you clearly lost this or you can go back to crutching a point I never contested. Your sentence reeked of egregious error and I pointed out as much, beyond that no one cares about your soap box.

[Zoot]

While working within the parameters given to you the most effective way to maximize efficiency is to cut out any unnecessary action by eliminating ignorance of any aspect of the task. Fire resist sets make the game easier, haste calculations make the game easier, knowledge of fSTR makes the game easier, a collective data pool of a collaborative effort of many end game players about the parameters within the task makes the game a little easier.

[Ryko]

Bingo, the game got easier because the player base finally sought out the answers SE wouldn't give them, not because I can edit my flash macro in wordpad. The line between convenience and distinct advantage is rather blatant.

[Shassira]

While working within the parameters given to you the most effective way to maximize efficiency is to cut out any unnecessary action by eliminating ignorance of any aspect of the task. Fire resist sets make the game easier, haste calculations make the game easier, knowledge of fSTR makes the game easier, a collective data pool of a collaborative effort of many end game players about the parameters within the task makes the game a little easier.

Yup, this is correct in all ways possible. Basicly knowledge is what makes things easier, obviously. There is a different between knowing how the game works and seeing in game real time information that isn't intended by the game. Ofcourse, i would pretty damn WISH they added TP view, MP view for alliances and HP% view at least to the interface, because those should've been there from the start. Sadly, they are not and sadly the designers have to account for that when dealing with difficulty.

Also, if they were more in touch with the comunity, they could keep up with what people know about the ways their system works (like all these nifty hate information that has been going around) and play with that when designing bosses. They can, legaly under their own TOS, assume that some players know how the interns work, but they cannot legaly assume some players use tools to see real time information, sadly.

(Oh, before i forget, arguments are not a competition, they are an exchange of views not to see who is right but to expose different opinions that may or may not lead to consensus. If anyone thinks i'm competing, you are reading me wrong D= )

[Ryko]

Oh, before i forget, arguments are not a competition, they are an exchange of views not to see who is right but to expose different opinions that may or may not lead to consensus

That's nice, you were still blatantly incorrect.

[FailureMidgard]

I also don't care if everyone here and out wants to use all the windower bells, they are great, some are really stress saver, but at least have the bravery of accepting you do have an edge. "Nah, i could do without it" sounds like an addict talking about it's addiction before accepting it. Keep at it.

Sure, there are things windower does that are amazing. There are also some things people are saying they could live without.

You talk about HP% for some specific cases, yet, not every player stuns Ultima (I've never had to do anything at one specific exact %), and furthermore, if you are diligent and have a decent attention span, you can be ready at any second. Windower lets you relax, it let's you go ahead and chat in party or LS while you know that you're still 5% away from needing to stun. And let's be honest, it's quite possible someone relaxes a bit too much, damage goes faster than expected, and they miss the stun because they were relying on windower. Which way would have been easier then?

But sure, there are things windower can do that are near impossible, or at least nowhere near worth the effort without it. I love the distance plugin for bard songs, personally. Managing to get perfectly center on 2 idiot BLMs in dynamis (9.8 distance to one, and 9.9 to the other) would be a giant pain without windower (esp with random odd terrain/etc on eyeballing it). I don't think you can argue however, that dynamis suddenly becomes even remotely challenging without windower (furthermore, the "challenge" of ballading those 2 BLMs only exists because most people are so unaware of bards that it's painful).

Anyone who says there is 0 advantage to windower, I agree is delusional. But anyone who thinks that windower suddenly makes a terrible player into a good one is just as delusional. It gives small advantages, usually in the form of convenience (then again, some things like wireframe just seem wrong, and some of us don't use it because of this...don't assume every plugin is used by every player). And finally I am not addicted to calculators because I use them to do large # multiplication, and then say I could do it on paper if I wanted to.

[RKenshin]

Yes this is what I'm talking about! I don't understand why people can't use their brains to organize macros, but no too many people are lazy and want to run scripts on everything. People are running macros even on keyboards!!! wtf

Man that reminds me, why do people buy cars? I don't get why people are so lazy, they could just walk to wherever they want to go. It'll take a little longer but damn it's so lazy to get one just so you save yourself a few hours.

Or hell why even use calculators? Everything can be done by hand... Better yet, why do people even waist money on food when it's just a slight benefit, that costs so much over time? People need to stop being lazy and depending on food for their improvements, and just get really good gear/merits.

In all seriousness, this game's macro interface is absolutely horrible. It's pretty much a fact that I can't play this game to the level I want to using SE's macro interface, and the same applies for many other people... There isn't really any debating it. For example I have over a 140 scripts for changing gear, and even if I condensed them I would say the majority of them would still fill up 3-4 FF macros. Making it necessary for a max of 420-560 extra FF macros to do what I do with about 60 (I use // to block out situational macros, can't do that without scripts... not enough room). Not even counting the macros I don't use scripts for, like JAs/WSs/etc.

[Omniyoji]

Yes this is what I'm talking about! I don't understand why people can't use their brains to organize macros, but no too many people are lazy and want to run scripts on everything. People are running macros even on keyboards!!! wtf

Man that reminds me, why do people buy cars? I don't get why people are so lazy, they could just walk to wherever they want to go. It'll take a little longer but damn it's so lazy to get one just so you save yourself a few hours.

>_> come now, are you trying to say you're really saving hours of time with windower macros ?_?

Choosing to walk across the street for work is one thing, but walking for 3 hours to downtown L.A. is just stupid...

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

i think its about that time for this thread

[thestalkmore]

Yes this is what I'm talking about! I don't understand why people can't use their brains to organize macros, but no too many people are lazy and want to run scripts on everything. People are running macros even on keyboards!!! wtf

Man that reminds me, why do people buy cars? I don't get why people are so lazy, they could just walk to wherever they want to go. It'll take a little longer but damn it's so lazy to get one just so you save yourself a few hours.

>_> come now, are you trying to say you're really saving hours of time with windower macros ?_?

Choosing to walk across the street for work is one thing, but walking for 3 hours to downtown L.A. is just stupid...

I don't think that's what he's saying, no.

[terranova]

I don't understand why RDMs/BLMs use them. If I can f'ing do w/o them everyone should be able to. Especially on other jobs that don't even require them as much as those 2 jobs do. Another thing, there's also this "/recast plugin"........ /facepalm are you serious people? I don't know what to say....

Oh, and about the more intelligent AI...
I can see it now, all the melees running after the mob b/c the mob's after the WHMs first

You don't need Windower plug-ins to do this, you just need a brain.

Thank you Therin!!!

I don't use it myself. It's tempting? Yes it is. Mine is very organized but when I get more INT/MND, I have to add a new macro to add that in. Which means redoing the entire page D:.

But you have to admit. . some extra lines to the macros would be very helpful.

[Yutuyu]

Yes this is what I'm talking about! I don't understand why people can't use their brains to organize macros, but no too many people are lazy and want to run scripts on everything. People are running macros even on keyboards!!! wtf

Man that reminds me, why do people buy cars? I don't get why people are so lazy, they could just walk to wherever they want to go. It'll take a little longer but damn it's so lazy to get one just so you save yourself a few hours.

Or hell why even use calculators? Everything can be done by hand... Better yet, why do people even waist money on food when it's just a slight benefit, that costs so much over time? People need to stop being lazy and depending on food for their improvements, and just get really good gear/merits.

In all seriousness, this game's macro interface is absolutely horrible. It's pretty much a fact that I can't play this game to the level I want to using SE's macro interface, and the same applies for many other people... There isn't really any debating it. For example I have over a 140 scripts for changing gear, and even if I condensed them I would say the majority of them would still fill up 3-4 FF macros. Making it necessary for a max of 420-560 extra FF macros to do what I do with about 60 (I use // to block out situational macros, can't do that without scripts... not enough room). Not even counting the macros I don't use scripts for, like JAs/WSs/etc.

Just because you can't do what you want to with the interface given doesn't mean that there's a problem that needs to be fixed. Maybe you should simply accept the limitations imposed on you instead of cheating to have them lifted?

[Zoot]

It's progress without crossing boundaries, improving without breaking holes into the webbing the game is made of. Stronger padding in a football players uniform, an improved face guard for a hockey player, more comfortable ballet shoes - not steroids or sabotage.

[Shassira]

I'd like to see a full interface revamp, that's something that has been needed for long, but this will likely not come since the game is somewhat looking to be past the maturing phase. Ofcourse, you never know, if people keep playing long enough it might. I do hope i'm not here to see it if it's gonna take long though xD

[buttson]

Hell back when Sky was the 'shit' you still had Moon, Bibiki, Ugly Range, Lufaise, Kuftal to fall back on.

What is Moon supposed to be? I remember hearing about it years ago, but I haven't heard about it since. Was it a zone nickname that didn't catch on, or what?

[Ramses]

Hell back when Sky was the 'shit' you still had Moon, Bibiki, Ugly Range, Lufaise, Kuftal to fall back on.

What is Moon supposed to be? I remember hearing about it years ago, but I haven't heard about it since. Was it a zone nickname that didn't catch on, or what?

Moon is an area of Ro Maeve. The area behind the moongate was called moon and we used to exp there.

[evilpaul]

Moon was the Mire of Zilart/COP merit areas. >.>

[Dreampainter]

The fact that a once prime exp spot has been so left behind that it is not even remembered by players makes me feel i have been playing this game far too long. I used to love exp in moon >.>

[BerenTebogo]

Yes this is what I'm talking about! I don't understand why people can't use their brains to organize macros, but no too many people are lazy and want to run scripts on everything. People are running macros even on keyboards!!! wtf

Man that reminds me, why do people buy cars? I don't get why people are so lazy, they could just walk to wherever they want to go. It'll take a little longer but damn it's so lazy to get one just so you save yourself a few hours.

Or hell why even use calculators? Everything can be done by hand... Better yet, why do people even waist money on food when it's just a slight benefit, that costs so much over time? People need to stop being lazy and depending on food for their improvements, and just get really good gear/merits.

In all seriousness, this game's macro interface is absolutely horrible. It's pretty much a fact that I can't play this game to the level I want to using SE's macro interface, and the same applies for many other people... There isn't really any debating it. For example I have over a 140 scripts for changing gear, and even if I condensed them I would say the majority of them would still fill up 3-4 FF macros. Making it necessary for a max of 420-560 extra FF macros to do what I do with about 60 (I use // to block out situational macros, can't do that without scripts... not enough room). Not even counting the macros I don't use scripts for, like JAs/WSs/etc.

Just because you can't do what you want to with the interface given doesn't mean that there's a problem that needs to be fixed. Maybe you should simply accept the limitations imposed on you instead of cheating to have them lifted?

Ok, I wasn't going to get involved, but really?

Maybe we should just accept the limitations of the human body? Why bother with medicine? Got the flu? Plan your funeral! Immunizations are cheating.