Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots *contains spoilers*

[arus2001]

Haven't quite finished yet, but I've been wondering...

[spoiler:279392wi]Wasn't Shadow Moses supposed to have been bombed by the end of MGS1? I mean, aside from chasing Liquid out so he wouldn't escape, that was partly why Snake and Meryl were in a rush, no?[/spoiler:279392wi]

They called it off, remember?

Apparently not.

[Exoduso]

Haven't quite finished yet, but I've been wondering...

[spoiler:7gzldlud]Wasn't Shadow Moses supposed to have been bombed by the end of MGS1? I mean, aside from chasing Liquid out so he wouldn't escape, that was partly why Snake and Meryl were in a rush, no?[/spoiler:7gzldlud]

They called it off, remember?

Apparently not.

[spoiler:7gzldlud]They call it off just after Liquid dies from FOXDIE I believe. They arrest the vice president or whoever the hell it was that called the airstrike, and the colonel cancels it.

Or something like that at least, it's been a while since I played MGS1.[/spoiler:7gzldlud]


Oh, and and the Patriots:


[spoiler:7gzldlud]So La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo is the Patriots' way of ensuring nobody talks about them, right?

It seems that whoever has nanomachines in them hears and says that instead of "patriots", even though they're not aware of it. Going back to MGS2, there were a lot of scenes where people (Ames, for example) were saying stuff like "you can't escape the la-li-lu-le-lo!" to Ocelot... In Act1 Snake asks Meryl something about the Patriots and she responds with a "the la-li-lu-le-lo? what are you talking about?"[/spoiler:7gzldlud]

That's the gist of it, right?

[Alina]

Yeah, I believe that's correct.

[Exoduso]

[spoiler:10gu0dew]But then, when Snake asks Drebin if he's with the Patriots, he says "nah, I ain't no la-li-lu-le.... i mean, patriots"... that kind of contradicts what happened with Meryl, so wth? =/[/spoiler:10gu0dew]

[Poopfacekilla]

Definitely, one of the best games I've ever played on console. It had cinematics that were better than most Hollywood flicks. The voice acting was great too.

[spoiler:2xz6jtrc]Just wondering though. How does Eva know that Big Boss was alive if she threw herself onto the fire?

I liked the game but I felt that towards the end it had "ended" 3 or 4 times already. It felt a little drawn out. Especially, the inclusion of Zero. We only see him at the end and he's essentially dead already. People are talking him up so much throughout the game and there's no confrontation or anything w/ him personally.

So the villain is mainly Liquid who himself was going for the same ultimate outcome? Perhaps Solidus was too and yet they both were the villains.

Yet, we fight a bunch of AI robots and never confront the Patriots entity in conversation or anything. We simply upload a virus and voila it's done.

The story was certainly riveting up to the chapel scene where Eva reveals the creation of the Patriots.

I felt like it would have been more interesting if the Patriots could not be stopped because they were simple the way things had naturally become. The most interesting thing about this game is how some aspects of the "war economy" parallel real life. However, there isn't a secret AI controlling the world behind the scenes IRL.

The theme of the military industrial complex and the advent of the PMCs has already manifested IRL so I felt Kojima could have made the story more dreary by revealing it's just how things are and the Patriots (the human counterparts) merely accellerated(sp) that reality.[/spoiler:2xz6jtrc]

[Alina]

[spoiler:umj3e0jn]But then, when Snake asks Drebin if he's with the Patriots, he says "nah, I ain't no la-li-lu-le.... i mean, patriots"... that kind of contradicts what happened with Meryl, so wth? =/[/spoiler:umj3e0jn]

[spoiler:umj3e0jn]Well don't forget, Drebin was working for the Patriots, so I'm sure he knew about their "codename" as well. I don't remember which part of the game that he said that, but didn't he kinda give himself away by showing he could say their real name?[/spoiler:umj3e0jn]

[Exoduso]

[spoiler:3qwaxoqh]Just wondering though. How does Eva know that Big Boss was alive if she threw herself onto the fire?

Faking it for the patriots would be my guess, she knew it was Solidus and not Big Boss because she helped Ocelot reconstruct BB's body with Liquid and Solidus' skin and limbs.

I liked the game but I felt that towards the end it had "ended" 3 or 4 times already. It felt a little drawn out. Especially, the inclusion of Zero. We only see him at the end and he's essentially dead already. People are talking him up so much throughout the game and there's no confrontation or anything w/ him personally.

There was no need, it was just to show what he had done. All the AI's were his fault, and he had to pay for his sins. There was no point in actually talking to him face to face.

So the villain is mainly Liquid who himself was going for the same ultimate outcome? Perhaps Solidus was too and yet they both were the villains.

Liquid died in MGS1 basically. Basically, Solid Snake was worked throughout the entire series. Liquid, Ocelot, Solidus, Big Boss, they all had the same intention in mind, which was to rid the world of the grip the Patriots (aka the AI's Zero had created and had started growing and working on their own), so they had the same cause as Solid Snake. The only difference is that they all knew what they wanted to accomplish, while Snake was being sent around like a doll by the Patriots to do their dirty work. If it was in MGS1 with the original FOXDIE, or in MGS4 to destroy Liquid Ocelot so that the Patriots can still rule. The only flaw in their plan was that they never expected Snake to destroy JD and release the world from the Patriots' grip.

Yet, we fight a bunch of AI robots and never confront the Patriots entity in conversation or anything. We simply upload a virus and voila it's done.

Why would you talk to an AI lol.

The story was certainly riveting up to the chapel scene where Eva reveals the creation of the Patriots.

Revealing that the MGS3 cast are basically the Patriots was awesome. Para-Medic (Dr. Clark) was killed by Frank Jaeger (Gray Fox, MGS1 Ninja) before MGS1 even took place, and Ocelot/Octopus killed the DARPA Chief (Sigint) right before MGS1 starts, so the only living members at the time were Zero, BB, EVA and Ocelot. Ocelot was in Shadow Moses, BB's body was being kept alive by the Patriots, Zero was god knows where and EVA was in hiding trying to revive BB along with Ocelot.
If you remember, in MGS1 Liquid threatens to nuke the US if they don't give him Big Boss's body. Back in MGS1 was when he had already wanted to free the world of the Patriots. Just think back at how many times Liquid and Ocelot had the chance to kill Snake both in MGS1 and in MGS4, but didn't. They needed him to keep fighting because they knew it wouldn't be possible without him. They both knew what they were doing. However, Snake didn't know what they were doing and we now found out that he didn't know what HE was doing, either.[/spoiler:3qwaxoqh]

Hope that cleared it up for you a little bit.

And Alina..:

[spoiler:3qwaxoqh]But then, when Snake asks Drebin if he's with the Patriots, he says "nah, I ain't no la-li-lu-le.... i mean, patriots"... that kind of contradicts what happened with Meryl, so wth? =/[/spoiler:3qwaxoqh]

[spoiler:3qwaxoqh]Well don't forget, Drebin was working for the Patriots, so I'm sure he knew about their "codename" as well. I don't remember which part of the game that he said that, but didn't he kinda give himself away by showing he could say their real name?[/spoiler:3qwaxoqh]

[spoiler:3qwaxoqh]But if he was doing that whole "i mean...." bit, wouldn't he say "patriots" first and THEN lalilulelo, so snake doesn't think it's odd? he says lalilule....then stops, and says 'patriots'. Only reason I found that to be weird. It was in South America, his car was camo'd and when you walk by it he shows up.[/spoiler:3qwaxoqh]

[elison]

I want the Big Boss camo, but beating the game in 5 hours or less along with not alerting once or killing anyone including bosses, just seems way to harsh. How the fuck do you beat MGS4 in 5 hours or less?

[Wintermute]

I want the Big Boss camo, but beating the game in 5 hours or less along with not alerting once or killing anyone including bosses, just seems way to harsh. How the fuck do you beat MGS4 in 5 hours or less?

Skip all cutscnes.

I'm on my second play at 2 Hours or just under almost up to the Act 3 Boss fight.
Plus on subsequent plays you know where you're going, what to do, and where stuff is, so it speeds up the process a bit.

[elison]

I want the Big Boss camo, but beating the game in 5 hours or less along with not alerting once or killing anyone including bosses, just seems way to harsh. How the fuck do you beat MGS4 in 5 hours or less?

Skip all cutscnes.

I'm on my second play at 2 Hours or just under almost up to the Act 3 Boss fight.
Plus on subsequent plays you know where you're going, what to do, and where stuff is, so it speeds up the process a bit.

What difficulty are you playing? It says that you need to beat it on the hardest difficulty (The Boss Xtreme). My first playthrough was on Big Boss Hard. I decided to fire up Solid Normal and see the difference; enemies are much more aggressive in Big Boss Hard and very quick to spot you on the field. I'll be firing it up on Xtreme soon, just need to get over my 34 hour MGS4 binge I had last week.

[Wintermute]

I want the Big Boss camo, but beating the game in 5 hours or less along with not alerting once or killing anyone including bosses, just seems way to harsh. How the fuck do you beat MGS4 in 5 hours or less?

Skip all cutscnes.

I'm on my second play at 2 Hours or just under almost up to the Act 3 Boss fight.
Plus on subsequent plays you know where you're going, what to do, and where stuff is, so it speeds up the process a bit.

What difficulty are you playing? It says that you need to beat it on the hardest difficulty (The Boss Xtreme). My first playthrough was on Big Boss Hard. I decided to fire up Solid Normal and see the difference; enemies are much more aggressive in Big Boss Hard and very quick to spot you on the field. I'll be firing it up on Xtreme soon, just need to get over my 34 hour MGS4 binge I had last week.

One of the normal ones, forget which.

Actually finished Act 3 just now at 4 hours.

I did get a spat of alert phases and stop to help militia along the way early on though, so I'm sure that adds some time.
Also watching the briefings to collect the Batteries, so finishing in 5 Hours should be doable, but no-alert, no kill on Extreme with no special items...don't think I can manage it.

[Torn]

Beat the game yesterday, the game was perfect. Completely exceeded my expectations.
[spoiler:1d1sdc9w]I love what they did with the credits XD "Bigboss?? wtf he didnt even say anything!" following with a cutscene 2 seconds later. Also you can see "Hideo Kojima-God in the first parts of the credits.[/spoiler:1d1sdc9w]

[wintersquall]

i still haven't heard whether or not the Dual Shock controller is necessary for this game, and i might go grab it today.

is it totally mandatory, or can i save myself 60 bucks for now and just get the game w/o a DS?

[Koyuki]

i still haven't heard whether or not the Dual Shock controller is necessary for this game, and i might go grab it today.

is it totally mandatory, or can i save myself 60 bucks for now and just get the game w/o a DS?

It's not mandatory.

[Kaisho]

I have a stupid question about the end of act 4

[spoiler:1nxtkkol]Why did Naomi kill herself? o.o;[/spoiler:1nxtkkol]

[Krandor]

Act 5 Spoiler

[spoiler:28c8iwsq]Can anyone who owns a Dual Shock 3 tell me if Psycho Mantis does actually rumble the controller? I haven't bought one yet, and he just screams about not being able to shake it then disappears.[/spoiler:28c8iwsq]

[Krandor]

I have a stupid question about the end of act 4

[spoiler:nbzuwvel]Why did Naomi kill herself? o.o;[/spoiler:nbzuwvel]

[spoiler:nbzuwvel]She was already going to die, the nanomachines only slowed the growth of the cancer. She also felt the need to pay for her sins for FOXDIE, the "creation" of Vamp, and others. Once she had the worm for GW in the hands of Sunny, she finally had no more reason to keep living. Once you finish the game and have everything explained to you'll also understand that she never really betrayed you, but that's for you to see.[/spoiler:nbzuwvel]

[wintersquall]

cool, so there's no psycho-mantis shit or anything? i saw that one of the bosses had a mantis name, and given how hard they were pushing the dual shock controller with this game i figured it'd have a significant effect on gameplay.

gonna run out and grab the game in a few here :D

[Wintermute]

Act 5 Spoiler

[spoiler:2ugszdvg]Can anyone who owns a Dual Shock 3 tell me if Psycho Mantis does actually rumble the controller? I haven't bought one yet, and he just screams about not being able to shake it then disappears.[/spoiler:2ugszdvg]

[spoiler:2ugszdvg]Yes.
He says "Vibration is back!" then laughs like the loony he is.
You also get a Flash-Back "X" button prompt of a White DS3, not sure if you get the same one with a Vanilla controller.[/spoiler:2ugszdvg]

The Dualshock adds a bit more immersion to the game, it's not necessary but it is nice.

End of Act 5:
[spoiler:2ugszdvg]Did anyone else feel sympathy for Ocelot?
He's quite the bastard throughout the series, but finding out that the Patriots themselves are trying to stop the system they helped create and the lengths that he went to to achieve said goals are extreme by anyones standards. Especially in the context of all the games together.

When all the pieces fall into place he seems like a Tragic Hero, going that far to stop the system and free Big Boss just out of admiration for him.

And am I the only one who think you beat Liquid out of Ocelot?
When he goes on about Dopplegangers and during the fight itself there's a few Ocelot moments thrown in which would suggest the conditioning is breaking down.[/spoiler:2ugszdvg]

EDIT:
Unlocked the Solar Gun which you get from collecting all 5 Dolls
[spoiler:2ugszdvg]Funky looking thing, you charge it (has 2 levels) and it's non-lethal.
You can also rapid-fire, after enough wee hits the target gets KO'd.
When you run out of ammo you re-charge it. Snake holds it up and yells "Sunlight!" and it recharges slowly, pretty funny to see the first time.
Nice alternative to the Tranq Pistol for subsequent playthroughs I think.[/spoiler:2ugszdvg]

[Exoduso]

[spoiler:25sah5i5]You do beat Liquid out of Ocelot. Ocelot put himself under complete hypnosis in order to actually BELIEVE he is Liquid, while still having his ultimate goal in mind. He basically turned himself into a Liquid that serves the original Patriots' goals. While you fight him, the hp bar starts off with "Liquid", after a couple of beating it turns into "Liquid Ocelot", and at the end it's just "Ocelot" because at that point he's out of his self-induced hypnosis and is back being Ocelot again.

I wouldn't say he's the tragic hero, or that you need to feel bad for him. He's the "hidden" protagonist of the series, if you will. To be honest, Liquid was a good guy too. If you go back to MGS1 where he was last a part of anything, BACK THEN he already wanted to get Big Boss's body in order to stop the Patriot AI's. Were his measures extreme? Sure, but his ultimate thought in mind was good.

If you think about it, Solid Snake is the only one that doesn't know WTF is going on, and keeps getting used by the Patriot AI's over and over again, until the very end. If anyone's a tragic hero here it's Snake.[/spoiler:25sah5i5]

[spoiler:25sah5i5]One thing I don't get is whose grave is he visiting damn it? It's not The Boss because at the end you see flowers placed next to The Boss's grave, which Snake finds weird (was Big Boss, but yeah) and then you start seeing the engraving of the grave that Snake is visiting, and it's right next to Joy's. The second BB shows up he pulls his gun at him, so I doubt it's his grave he's visiting. So who can it be? Can't be EVA cus he also visits that grave prior to the events of the game. Only other option that comes to mind is either Solidus or the obvious one Frank Jaeger/Gray Fox, which is what I would go with... but the game never seems to explain it.[/spoiler:25sah5i5]