Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots *contains spoilers*

[Belkin]

To Exoduso

[spoiler:22kjfzfz]So I had a hard time understanding this part through all the other stuff that was going on...

So...the Patriots made Ocelot that way in order for Liquid's personality to eventually destroy them? I thought EVA/Ocelot were on Big Boss's side and wanted to be free from all control. Whereas the Patriots wanted complete control. If Liquid couldn't be free from all control, he wanted to be in command of it (Destroying JD and redirecting all power to GW would have gave him complete control). But in the end, the virus destroys all parts and Liquid's original goal was accomplished (To be free from it). I never thought that the Patriots WANTED that to happen. By this time, Sigit was dead, Para-Medic was dead and Zero is in a vegetative state and "the Patriots" was a completely self regulating AI...So who would have ordered Ocelot to destroy the system?...Definitely not the Patriots. Maybe Ocelot just thought he would be honoring Big Boss by letting Liquid take over and finish the work Big Boss started.

You know what I'm saying? It's kind of hard to explain what I mean.[/spoiler:22kjfzfz]

[Krandor]

To Exoduso

[spoiler:3dmn36rq]So I had a hard time understanding this part through all the other stuff that was going on...

So...the Patriots made Ocelot that way in order for Liquid's personality to eventually destroy them? I thought EVA/Ocelot were on Big Boss's side and wanted to be free from all control. Whereas the Patriots wanted complete control. If Liquid couldn't be free from all control, he wanted to be in command of it (Destroying JD and redirecting all power to GW would have gave him complete control). But in the end, the virus destroys all parts and Liquid's original goal was accomplished (To be free from it). I never thought that the Patriots WANTED that to happen. By this time, Sigit was dead, Para-Medic was dead and Zero is in a vegetative state and "the Patriots" was a completely self regulating AI...So who would have ordered Ocelot to destroy the system?...Definitely not the Patriots. Maybe Ocelot just thought he would be honoring Big Boss by letting Liquid take over and finish the work Big Boss started.

You know what I'm saying? It's kind of hard to explain what I mean.[/spoiler:3dmn36rq]

[spoiler:3dmn36rq]"Liquid" wanted control, Ocelot wanted to destroy the System and free the world. Ocelot, EVA, Naomi, and Big Boss were all working together to end the Patriot's (or more specifically Zero's) reign. The thing you have to realize is that no one (I think except Big Boss, It was like 3 AM when I was watching the final cutscene last night) knew that Ocelot was still technically in control, Liquid was never really there. He wanted to destroy the System, but he had to literally trick the entire world into thinking that he was Liquid, so that the Patriot's didn't suspect his true intentions.[/spoiler:3dmn36rq]

[Exoduso]

To Exoduso

[spoiler:39c86fbm]So I had a hard time understanding this part through all the other stuff that was going on...

So...the Patriots made Ocelot that way in order for Liquid's personality to eventually destroy them? I thought EVA/Ocelot were on Big Boss's side and wanted to be free from all control. Whereas the Patriots wanted complete control. If Liquid couldn't be free from all control, he wanted to be in command of it (Destroying JD and redirecting all power to GW would have gave him complete control). But in the end, the virus destroys all parts and Liquid's original goal was accomplished (To be free from it). I never thought that the Patriots WANTED that to happen. By this time, Sigit was dead, Para-Medic was dead and Zero is in a vegetative state and "the Patriots" was a completely self regulating AI...So who would have ordered Ocelot to destroy the system?...Definitely not the Patriots. Maybe Ocelot just thought he would be honoring Big Boss by letting Liquid take over and finish the work Big Boss started.

You know what I'm saying? It's kind of hard to explain what I mean.[/spoiler:39c86fbm]

edit: after finishing it, I realized it ended up coming a bit long lol... but it's worth it, it'll explain everything pretty much.

[spoiler:39c86fbm]I think you got it all wrong. Liquid DIED, in all aspects of the word, in Shadow Moses. He never posessed Ocelot, he never "came back". Ocelot and EVA's goal was to revive Big Boss, for obvious reasons (Ocelot idolized the guy and EVA loved him.) However, Big Boss was trapped in time by the Patriot AI's (Zero made them do this if i'm not mistaken, because he claimed the world needs a hero and if BB never dies, then he'll always be around, even if he is trapped in time.) In order to resurrect Big Boss and release him from that grip, the Patriot AI's would have to be destroyed. However even if that was done, BB's body was basically only bones (after Snake burns him alive with a match or w/e retarded thing that was in MG2/Zanzibar Land).. So even if they were to get rid of the AI's, BB would have no body. So they took Solidus's (recent) corpse and Liquid's corpse (which was buried and thought of as "Solid Snake's" body if you recall from MGS2, when Otacon and Snake buried it in order to make Snake disappear and work from the shadows after the oil tanker incident) and they used both bodies' flesh and muscle tissues to reconstruct Big Boss into what you see at the end of the game when he visits the graveyard.

The decoy EVA had in posession (and she knew it was a decoy) was actually Solidus's body, since he is an identical copy his corpse's information would be enough to take over the AI's and surface Outer Haven, which is what Ocelot did. Which brings me back to Ocelot, who was never "posessed" by Liquid. He took his arm and had it surgically added to his body, and then underwent self hypnosis in order to convince himself that HE IS LIQUID. In MGS2 you see him struggling with both personalities back and forth, and that's why it only triggered while Solid Snake was nearly.. it was probably something he self-taught himself in order to ensure that he would have a strong reason to turn himself into Liquid. Now why would he do this? Simple. By being Liquid, he could do whatever he wanted without being constantly monitored by the Patriots. He didn't 'pretend' to be Liquid either, he actually believed that he was truly Liquid Snake via the hypnosis he underwent. HOWEVER, he still maintained his true intentions in mind, she basically he DID "put a mask on" if you will and pretended to be Liquid, while still following his ultimate goal.. but this way, the Patriots couldn't stop him because he wasn't acting under "Ocelot". This way, he could ensure that JD would be destroyed by having Solid Snake help (Snake was there to assassinate Liquid to begin with... that's all he cared about, and if he knew that it was actually Ocelot using a self-induced hypnosis to pretend to be Liquid, he wouldn't even be there..) as a result, he got what he wanted. JD and the other AI's were destroyed, therefore releasing their grip on BB's corpse and releasing it. At that point, his body had already been reconstructed with Solidus/Liquid's bodies, and we see him shortly after that.

Solid Snake was basically worked by the Patriots throughout his whole life. Back in MGS1 Liquid already wanted to obtain BB's body in order to take over JD and use that to release the world from their grip. You can kind of say that both Liquid and Ocelot were protagonists of the series to some effect, Ocelot is probably my main "hidden" protagonist, actually.
Drebin is sent by the Patriots to meet Snake, and injects him with the new FOXDIE. That, in turn, kills EVA, Ocelot, and Big Boss. Everything was going according to the Patriots' (AI's, that is) plan, except for Snake actually destroying them. They just wanted him to get rid of all the original Patriots so that they could rule supreme without anyone interfering. That last part wasn't a part of their plan, and that's why they got screwed. But Snake had been used throughout his entire life.

When you fight Ocelot in the end, the HP bar goes from "Liquid", to "Liquid Ocelot", to "Ocelot"... as the fight progresses, he realizes who he really is, and sheds off his Liquid personality completely by the time he dies.[/spoiler:39c86fbm]


I think that sums it up pretty much.

[Belkin]

Exoduso:

[spoiler:34mpda5a]While most of your explanation seems pretty accurate, I still think it is possible that Liquid semi possessed Ocelot for two reasons:

1. Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow, meaning he has some "Medium" properties about him. (I believe this is said in MGS3 and was a dead give away at the time as to why Liquid could take over Ocelot.)

2. The nanomachines in Liquid's arm could have had imprinted memories, emotions, whatever on them and then they started to circulate throughout Ocelot's entire body when the arm was grafted on.

But everything else is believable. The only REAL antagonist is the AI version of the Patriots.[/spoiler:34mpda5a]

[Exoduso]

Exoduso:

[spoiler:3jz13kjw]While most of your explanation seems pretty accurate, I still think it is possible that Liquid semi possessed Ocelot for two reasons:

1. Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow, meaning he has some "Medium" properties about him. (I believe this is said in MGS3 and was a dead give away at the time as to why Liquid could take over Ocelot.)

2. The nanomachines in Liquid's arm could have had imprinted memories, emotions, whatever on them and then they started to circulate throughout Ocelot's entire body when the arm was grafted on.

But everything else is believable. The only REAL antagonist is the AI version of the Patriots.[/spoiler:3jz13kjw]

[spoiler:3jz13kjw]No, he didn't. He didn't even possess him a little bit. Go watch the cutscene with Big Boss again, he explains it perfectly. Ocelot used the nanomachines inside Liquid's arm for basic things, and then taught himself how to act and talk like Liquid. For all acts and purposes, he was pretending to be Liquid, stealing his personality if you will. Only he took it a step further and hypnotized himself into believing he was Liquid.

Liquid was never there, and actually died on Shadow Moses.. it is also the last time we have seen the actual Liquid, which is sorta sad. Ever since then it was just Ocelot pretending (throughout MGS2 it was all pretend... after, like I said, he took it a step further and hynotized himself to fully become Liquid and fool the Patriots. However, he maintained some sort of coherent understanding of his surroundings as Ocelot apparently, because that "Liquid" worked towards Ocelot/EVA's goal.[/spoiler:3jz13kjw]

[Belkin]

[spoiler:1q7qybwa]I'm not exactly sure how PRETENDING to be Liquid made him uncontrollable by the Patriots. He was still the same person -.-[/spoiler:1q7qybwa]

[Exoduso]

[spoiler:1a7jaxhy]I'm not exactly sure how PRETENDING to be Liquid made him uncontrollable by the Patriots. He was still the same person -.-[/spoiler:1a7jaxhy]

[spoiler:1a7jaxhy]He doesn't have nanomachines, they can't track him. The only way is to see the actions he's taking. Remember, Ocelot pretended to work for them, so by being Liquid he wasn't under their jurisdiction anymore and could do whatever he wanted.

They tricked them into thinking he was possessed by Liquid, and at that point he could do whatever he wanted.

Think of how Rose had to pretend to be married to the Colonel until Raiden finished his mission, so it won't interfere with getting those AI's taken care of. It's the same thing, only Ocelot didn't want to go in hiding... he wanted to take action, and that was the only way he knew how.

Are these drastic measures? Sure lol. But that's Ocelot for you.[/spoiler:1a7jaxhy]

[Wintermute]

[spoiler:1ucxi9xr]Are these drastic, convoluted, confusing, and ridicoulously complicated measures? Sure lol. But that's Ocelot for you.[/spoiler:1ucxi9xr]

Fixed it a bit

[wintersquall]

bought the game and a dualshock, that's what credit cards are for amirite?

edit: nvm, i'm an idiot.

[Exoduso]

bought the game and a dualshock, that's what credit cards are for amirite?

edit: nvm, i'm an idiot.

What happened, you bought a sixaxis instead?

[Krandor]

Something else confusing me (Spoiler related to the ending)

[spoiler:1j9kszjx]Big Boss contracts FOXDIE and dies within 20ish minutes (I can't remember exactly how long that scene was), and EVA didn't really last more then an hour. So what's up with Ocelot surviving for days after being in direct contact with Snake in Europe? I could maybe just say that it hadn't manifested at that point, but Big Boss told Snake that EVA died because of the FOXDIE.[/spoiler:1j9kszjx]

[Exoduso]

Something else confusing me (Spoiler related to the ending)

[spoiler:1wf3uaml]Big Boss contracts FOXDIE and dies within 20ish minutes (I can't remember exactly how long that scene was), and EVA didn't really last more then an hour. So what's up with Ocelot surviving for days after being in direct contact with Snake in Europe? I could maybe just say that it hadn't manifested at that point, but Big Boss told Snake that EVA died because of the FOXDIE.[/spoiler:1wf3uaml]

[spoiler:1wf3uaml]FOXDIE targets specific genes... I suppose you COULD say that while he was under his Liquid persona, the Liquid nanomachines were the superior ones at the time, keeping the Ocelot genes at bay? I mean, this game is scifi enough, it could make sense. And honestly it's the only explanation. Once you start fighting him and he becomes Ocelot (around the time when Snake Eater starts playing in the background), maybe 5 mins pass before he dies? I doubt a fist fight with Snake is what killed him.[/spoiler:1wf3uaml]

[Headspace]

Something else confusing me (Spoiler related to the ending)

[spoiler:3ob0gqc1]Big Boss contracts FOXDIE and dies within 20ish minutes (I can't remember exactly how long that scene was), and EVA didn't really last more then an hour. So what's up with Ocelot surviving for days after being in direct contact with Snake in Europe? I could maybe just say that it hadn't manifested at that point, but Big Boss told Snake that EVA died because of the FOXDIE.[/spoiler:3ob0gqc1]

[spoiler:3ob0gqc1]FOXDIE targets specific genes... I suppose you COULD say that while he was under his Liquid persona, the Liquid nanomachines were the superior ones at the time, keeping the Ocelot genes at bay? I mean, this game is scifi enough, it could make sense. And honestly it's the only explanation. Once you start fighting him and he becomes Ocelot (around the time when Snake Eater starts playing in the background), maybe 5 mins pass before he dies? I doubt a fist fight with Snake is what killed him.[/spoiler:3ob0gqc1]

[spoiler:3ob0gqc1]They explained this, there was barely any part of Liquid in Ocelot. His persona was self induced through psychological training.[/spoiler:3ob0gqc1]

[Wintermute]

Something else confusing me (Spoiler related to the ending)

[spoiler:bxgv5i89]Big Boss contracts FOXDIE and dies within 20ish minutes (I can't remember exactly how long that scene was), and EVA didn't really last more then an hour. So what's up with Ocelot surviving for days after being in direct contact with Snake in Europe? I could maybe just say that it hadn't manifested at that point, but Big Boss told Snake that EVA died because of the FOXDIE.[/spoiler:bxgv5i89]

[spoiler:bxgv5i89]FOXDIE targets specific genes... I suppose you COULD say that while he was under his Liquid persona, the Liquid nanomachines were the superior ones at the time, keeping the Ocelot genes at bay? I mean, this game is scifi enough, it could make sense. And honestly it's the only explanation. Once you start fighting him and he becomes Ocelot (around the time when Snake Eater starts playing in the background), maybe 5 mins pass before he dies? I doubt a fist fight with Snake is what killed him.[/spoiler:bxgv5i89]

[spoiler:bxgv5i89]They explained this, there was barely any part of Liquid in Ocelot. His persona was self induced through psychological training.[/spoiler:bxgv5i89]

[spoiler:bxgv5i89]Original question is why Ocelot was not affected as drastically as others.
The Patriot's AI would have included Ocelot in FOXDIE, as it was what killed him eventually, since the AI was trying to take out the Patriots themselves.

The only discrepancy is why it took so long.

Arguably FOXDIE doesn't have a standard infection time. In the original MGS1 Liquid is exposed to it pretty early on, at least 1/2 way through the game, and if memory serves the game takes place within a 24 Hour period, but it takes quite a long time to affect him, whereas others die pretty quick, i.e. Baker and Octopus.

It's possible that Ocelots physiology meant that it took longer to take effect.

FOXDIE was a nanomachine too wasn't it? It's probable that Ocelot was using some stuff to supress them.
I doubt he would have overlooked the fact that another attempt on his life would be made using FOXDIE given it's what killed Liquid. Chances are he took measures to protect himself, even in a limited manner.
Having Naomi around for the ride wouldn't hurt either since she designed the original FOXDIE.

EVA was impaled, shot at, and set on fire. I don't think it was the FOXDIE that did her in, but the Blood-Loss.
Big Boss had an old body that had been in quarantine for years and later pieced togather from clone parts.
He'd been on life-support/stasis for years, most likely a lot of his body (Organs, immune system, etc) were atrophied and probably weren't in any shape to put up any sort of fight against FOXDIE.

Or maybe, we forget about entertainments chief accomplice: Suspension of Disbelief.[/spoiler:bxgv5i89]

[Exoduso]

Something else confusing me (Spoiler related to the ending)

[spoiler:zn404lad]Big Boss contracts FOXDIE and dies within 20ish minutes (I can't remember exactly how long that scene was), and EVA didn't really last more then an hour. So what's up with Ocelot surviving for days after being in direct contact with Snake in Europe? I could maybe just say that it hadn't manifested at that point, but Big Boss told Snake that EVA died because of the FOXDIE.[/spoiler:zn404lad]

[spoiler:zn404lad]FOXDIE targets specific genes... I suppose you COULD say that while he was under his Liquid persona, the Liquid nanomachines were the superior ones at the time, keeping the Ocelot genes at bay? I mean, this game is scifi enough, it could make sense. And honestly it's the only explanation. Once you start fighting him and he becomes Ocelot (around the time when Snake Eater starts playing in the background), maybe 5 mins pass before he dies? I doubt a fist fight with Snake is what killed him.[/spoiler:zn404lad]

[spoiler:zn404lad]They explained this, there was barely any part of Liquid in Ocelot. His persona was self induced through psychological training.[/spoiler:zn404lad]

[spoiler:zn404lad]Original question is why Ocelot was not affected as drastically as others.
The Patriot's AI would have included Ocelot in FOXDIE, as it was what killed him eventually, since the AI was trying to take out the Patriots themselves.

The only discrepancy is why it took so long.

Arguably FOXDIE doesn't have a standard infection time. In the original MGS1 Liquid is exposed to it pretty early on, at least 1/2 way through the game, and if memory serves the game takes place within a 24 Hour period, but it takes quite a long time to affect him, whereas others die pretty quick, i.e. Baker and Octopus.

It's possible that Ocelots physiology meant that it took longer to take effect.

FOXDIE was a nanomachine too wasn't it? It's probable that Ocelot was using some stuff to supress them.
I doubt he would have overlooked the fact that another attempt on his life would be made using FOXDIE given it's what killed Liquid. Chances are he took measures to protect himself, even in a limited manner.
Having Naomi around for the ride wouldn't hurt either since she designed the original FOXDIE.

EVA was impaled, shot at, and set on fire. I don't think it was the FOXDIE that did her in, but the Blood-Loss.
Big Boss had an old body that had been in quarantine for years and later pieced togather from clone parts.
He'd been on life-support/stasis for years, most likely a lot of his body (Organs, immune system, etc) were atrophied and probably weren't in any shape to put up any sort of fight against FOXDIE.

Or maybe, we forget about entertainments chief accomplice: Suspension of Disbelief.[/spoiler:zn404lad]

[spoiler:zn404lad]What you said seems to be the most plausible explanation. FOXDIE might take longer to affect different people. Liquid took forever to die in MGS1, while Octopus (pretending to be Sigint) died in just a couple of minutes.[/spoiler:zn404lad]

[arus2001]

Something else confusing me (Spoiler related to the ending)

[spoiler:29ndig3m]Big Boss contracts FOXDIE and dies within 20ish minutes (I can't remember exactly how long that scene was), and EVA didn't really last more then an hour. So what's up with Ocelot surviving for days after being in direct contact with Snake in Europe? I could maybe just say that it hadn't manifested at that point, but Big Boss told Snake that EVA died because of the FOXDIE.[/spoiler:29ndig3m]

[spoiler:29ndig3m]FOXDIE targets specific genes... I suppose you COULD say that while he was under his Liquid persona, the Liquid nanomachines were the superior ones at the time, keeping the Ocelot genes at bay? I mean, this game is scifi enough, it could make sense. And honestly it's the only explanation. Once you start fighting him and he becomes Ocelot (around the time when Snake Eater starts playing in the background), maybe 5 mins pass before he dies? I doubt a fist fight with Snake is what killed him.[/spoiler:29ndig3m]

[spoiler:29ndig3m]They explained this, there was barely any part of Liquid in Ocelot. His persona was self induced through psychological training.[/spoiler:29ndig3m]

[spoiler:29ndig3m]Original question is why Ocelot was not affected as drastically as others.
The Patriot's AI would have included Ocelot in FOXDIE, as it was what killed him eventually, since the AI was trying to take out the Patriots themselves.

The only discrepancy is why it took so long.

Arguably FOXDIE doesn't have a standard infection time. In the original MGS1 Liquid is exposed to it pretty early on, at least 1/2 way through the game, and if memory serves the game takes place within a 24 Hour period, but it takes quite a long time to affect him, whereas others die pretty quick, i.e. Baker and Octopus.

It's possible that Ocelots physiology meant that it took longer to take effect.

FOXDIE was a nanomachine too wasn't it? It's probable that Ocelot was using some stuff to supress them.
I doubt he would have overlooked the fact that another attempt on his life would be made using FOXDIE given it's what killed Liquid. Chances are he took measures to protect himself, even in a limited manner.
Having Naomi around for the ride wouldn't hurt either since she designed the original FOXDIE.

EVA was impaled, shot at, and set on fire. I don't think it was the FOXDIE that did her in, but the Blood-Loss.
Big Boss had an old body that had been in quarantine for years and later pieced togather from clone parts.
He'd been on life-support/stasis for years, most likely a lot of his body (Organs, immune system, etc) were atrophied and probably weren't in any shape to put up any sort of fight against FOXDIE.

Or maybe, we forget about entertainments chief accomplice: Suspension of Disbelief.[/spoiler:29ndig3m]

[spoiler:29ndig3m]What you said seems to be the most plausible explanation. FOXDIE might take longer to affect different people. Liquid took forever to die in MGS1, while Octopus (pretending to be Sigint) died in just a couple of minutes.[/spoiler:29ndig3m]

[spoiler:29ndig3m]Possible maybe that Liquid's hand remnants would've offered a form of vaccination that ultimately failed to a new strain of FOXDIE? I mean, we try to do it with the flu, after all.[/spoiler:29ndig3m]

[Exoduso]

[quote=arus2001]

Something else confusing me (Spoiler related to the ending)

[spoiler:4ej99qod]Big Boss contracts FOXDIE and dies within 20ish minutes (I can't remember exactly how long that scene was), and EVA didn't really last more then an hour. So what's up with Ocelot surviving for days after being in direct contact with Snake in Europe? I could maybe just say that it hadn't manifested at that point, but Big Boss told Snake that EVA died because of the FOXDIE.[/spoiler:4ej99qod]

[spoiler:4ej99qod]FOXDIE targets specific genes... I suppose you COULD say that while he was under his Liquid persona, the Liquid nanomachines were the superior ones at the time, keeping the Ocelot genes at bay? I mean, this game is scifi enough, it could make sense. And honestly it's the only explanation. Once you start fighting him and he becomes Ocelot (around the time when Snake Eater starts playing in the background), maybe 5 mins pass before he dies? I doubt a fist fight with Snake is what killed him.[/spoiler:4ej99qod]

[spoiler:4ej99qod]They explained this, there was barely any part of Liquid in Ocelot. His persona was self induced through psychological training.[/spoiler:4ej99qod]

[spoiler:4ej99qod]Original question is why Ocelot was not affected as drastically as others.
The Patriot's AI would have included Ocelot in FOXDIE, as it was what killed him eventually, since the AI was trying to take out the Patriots themselves.

The only discrepancy is why it took so long.

Arguably FOXDIE doesn't have a standard infection time. In the original MGS1 Liquid is exposed to it pretty early on, at least 1/2 way through the game, and if memory serves the game takes place within a 24 Hour period, but it takes quite a long time to affect him, whereas others die pretty quick, i.e. Baker and Octopus.

It's possible that Ocelots physiology meant that it took longer to take effect.

FOXDIE was a nanomachine too wasn't it? It's probable that Ocelot was using some stuff to supress them.
I doubt he would have overlooked the fact that another attempt on his life would be made using FOXDIE given it's what killed Liquid. Chances are he took measures to protect himself, even in a limited manner.
Having Naomi around for the ride wouldn't hurt either since she designed the original FOXDIE.

EVA was impaled, shot at, and set on fire. I don't think it was the FOXDIE that did her in, but the Blood-Loss.
Big Boss had an old body that had been in quarantine for years and later pieced togather from clone parts.
He'd been on life-support/stasis for years, most likely a lot of his body (Organs, immune system, etc) were atrophied and probably weren't in any shape to put up any sort of fight against FOXDIE.

Or maybe, we forget about entertainments chief accomplice: Suspension of Disbelief.[/spoiler:4ej99qod]

[spoiler:4ej99qod]What you said seems to be the most plausible explanation. FOXDIE might take longer to affect different people. Liquid took forever to die in MGS1, while Octopus (pretending to be Sigint) died in just a couple of minutes.[/spoiler:4ej99qod]

[spoiler:4ej99qod]Possible maybe that Liquid's hand remnants would've offered a form of vaccination that ultimately failed to a new strain of FOXDIE? I mean, we try to do it with the flu, after all.[/spoiler:4ej99qod][/quote:4ej99qod]

[spoiler:4ej99qod]Regardless, they didn't know that new FOXDIE existed until it was too late. And again, I don't think the fist fight with Snake was what killed Ocelot. It had to be FOXDIE.[/spoiler:4ej99qod]

[Poopfacekilla]

as we're figuring out story further...

[spoiler:3g5mqys5]how do you guys think it stacks up to previous MGSs? personally, I think that because Kojima is tying up all the lose ends in one game it can appear confusing or at least taxing to put all the pieces together.

There are a lot of wtf moments tho, sort of like in Lost. ie, Big Boss being alive/etc etc.

the one thing i dont get about foxdie is that wouldnt it mutate with the others as it had w/ snake or since they died sooner, it didnt have a chance to?

imo snake eater had a better story simply because it was the beginning and there wasnt a barrage of twists and wtf-moments that seemed like a stretch.[/spoiler:3g5mqys5]

[Exoduso]

as we're figuring out story further...

[spoiler:38lk0mht]how do you guys think it stacks up to previous MGSs? personally, I think that because Kojima is tying up all the lose ends in one game it can appear confusing or at least taxing to put all the pieces together.

There are a lot of wtf moments tho, sort of like in Lost. ie, Big Boss being alive/etc etc.

the one thing i dont get about foxdie is that wouldnt it mutate with the others as it had w/ snake or since they died sooner, it didnt have a chance to?

imo snake eater had a better story simply because it was the beginning and there wasnt a barrage of twists and wtf-moments that seemed like a stretch.[/spoiler:38lk0mht]

[spoiler:38lk0mht]wtf moments? everything was explained extremely well if you ask me.

The new foxdie stopped the old foxdie.. yes, this one will mutate eventually as well, but Snake will die way before that happens.

Big Boss being back isn't that out there, it actually made a lot of sense. I think he talked way too much, they should've spread the explanations around better. But overall, everything he said needed to be said, and i'm glad Kojima used Big Boss to tie all the final loose ends together.[/spoiler:38lk0mht]

[Poopfacekilla]

[spoiler:2iiqe2a2]it seemed way to contrived (even for a video game story) imo. im not saying it wasn't explained thoroughly - it definitely was.[/spoiler:2iiqe2a2]