Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots *contains spoilers*

[Wintermute]

Then why did Snake say all the patriots have been dead for 100 years at the very end of MGS2. and if zero had been alive all this time till we finally see him, where was he all of this time prior.

The list they get at the end of MGS2 are the Philosophers iirc, not the Patriots.

you are correct, sir. They got the list of the original founders of the Philosophers... later dubbed "Patriots" by the MGS3 gang when they got hold of the legacy.

Do they ever specifically mention that or is it just conjecture? At the end of MGS2 I always thought the list was of famous American Patriots(like who they named the AIs after) and whatnot.

I believe that it's assumed (by fans) that the list is actually the US branch of the Philosphers which gets mistaken for the Patriots.

The PSN database probably has the cold hard facts on that though.

[Exoduso]

Then why did Snake say all the patriots have been dead for 100 years at the very end of MGS2. and if zero had been alive all this time till we finally see him, where was he all of this time prior.

The list they get at the end of MGS2 are the Philosophers iirc, not the Patriots.

you are correct, sir. They got the list of the original founders of the Philosophers... later dubbed "Patriots" by the MGS3 gang when they got hold of the legacy.

Do they ever specifically mention that or is it just conjecture? At the end of MGS2 I always thought the list was of famous American Patriots(like who they named the AIs after) and whatnot.

I believe that it's assumed (by fans) that the list is actually the US branch of the Philosphers which gets mistaken for the Patriots.

The PSN database probably has the cold hard facts on that though.

They do mention that they got a list of 12... I believe it was said in MGS3(or mgs2, either way) that the original philosopher's wiseman's committee consisted of 12 members. That is the list that they obtained from GW.

[Nuriko]

I looked through the PSN Database for about an hour earlier and could not find any information about the "Wiseman's Committee" thought to be the original members of the Philosophers (just bits and pieces about specific members such as Volgin and The Boss' fathers), nor what Otacon found on the disc at the end of MGS2. I don't recall where specifically, but I also got the impression from either MGS3 or MGS4 that what Otacon found was the names of Wiseman's Committee. Otacon also definitely said that one of the members was one of Philanthropy's biggest benefactors, but for the life of me I can't find any more specific information from the PSN database to clarify who he was referring to. If I had to guess, I think the obvious answer would be it's Ocelot working behind the scenes, but I can't find any proof to support that from either the PSN Database, Metal Gear Wiki, or elsewhere

[Merovingian]

I have one complain to make about MGS4. I understand their explanation with Ocelot, but the way they played it in MGS2 made it look differently. I have the feeling Kojima intended to have liquid controls Ocelot for real at first, but changed it when he tried to remove paranormal stuff from the series.

Also, didnt Otacon say something like "and one of them is one of our main benefactor" at the end of MGS2? What did he mean by that, and was it ever covered?

My guess on this is that Philanthropy was controlled by the patriots w/o Otacon and Snake knowing about it, since everyone on that list were the original philosophers who died way before the mgs3 story.

[Darus Grey]

And Darus Grey, you're full of shit. No one saw that coming (MGS3 cast being the founders of the Patriots)... maybe Ocelot and Big Boss, but the rest? Give me a break. (And even in Ocelot's case, the games made you think that he WORKS for the Patriots, not that he's one of the founders..)

Sorry, it was obvious.

Last installment of series. Series based on byzantium relations of existing characters.

The MGS series follows many standard conventions. By the last installment you don't introduce new major characters(because you have no attachment to them, people don't like to be blind-sided). Most of the characters have fairly well documented histories except the characters of MGS3 who have a large hole in their history coinciding with the time-frame of the modern patriots. Since the series has established most of the twists to involve existing characters...WHO ELSE WOULD IT OF BEEN???

It's introduction level literary analysis, Not magic.

[Torn]

Metal Gear Solid Portable Ops, at the end of the game, Ocelot proposes the idea of the patriots to Major zero and suggests Big boss to join them.

[Exoduso]

And Darus Grey, you're full of shit. No one saw that coming (MGS3 cast being the founders of the Patriots)... maybe Ocelot and Big Boss, but the rest? Give me a break. (And even in Ocelot's case, the games made you think that he WORKS for the Patriots, not that he's one of the founders..)

Sorry, it was obvious.

Last installment of series. Series based on byzantium relations of existing characters.

The MGS series follows many standard conventions. By the last installment you don't introduce new major characters(because you have no attachment to them, people don't like to be blind-sided). Most of the characters have fairly well documented histories except the characters of MGS3 who have a large hole in their history coinciding with the time-frame of the modern patriots. Since the series has established most of the twists to involve existing characters...WHO ELSE WOULD IT OF BEEN???

It's introduction level literary analysis, Not magic.

What i'm saying is that after MGS3, you didn't flat out say "oh, mgs3 cast must be the Patriots then!"... when it came up in mgs4, it probably wasn't as shocking as it could've been if it was something else (even though you ARE correct in that there wasn't really any other group in the game's plotline that could contribute to that part, unless they were going for something random that probably wouldn't have that big of an impact after building the Patriots/Philosophers for 2-3 canon titles..)

But my point is that no one KNEW they would turn out to the Patriots... and Torn, did it actually specify that he was talking to Major Zero? I'm pretty sure it didn't specify any names (other than Big Boss, obviously.)

[Krandor]

It was never specified in Portable Ops who Ocelot was talking to.

[Torn]

Well they said "The man with the same codename as Null" which everyone thought was Zero I guess.

[Krandor]

Well, it's obviously heavily implied, just never directly stated.

[Darus Grey]

But my point is that no one KNEW they would turn out to the Patriots...

Of course no one *knew* as in an absolute, 100% fact...because the fact was never explicitly stated before MGS4. Because only the creators actually *know* what they're really doing. We could've been blind-sided and it turned out to be the flying spaghetti monster who formed the patriots.

I'm sure many people (rightfully) assumed it though.

[Epical]

Sorry to interrupt all this intelligent lore-talk, but yeah, MGS4 has shot straight to the top of my Favorite Game of All Time list. Well done.

[Hitoshura]

You know I was really hoping and pushing the theory that Ocelot had been faking being Liquid the entire time and at the end they revealed this entire new plot/motive.

[Arachna]

I was hoping that Ocelot still existed in some form, that Liquid hadn't completely taken him over. I'm glad with the end result but I'm still a little disappointed that they didn't make any use of Ocelot's dormant medium powers he could have inherited from his father. I would have liked the idea of Liquid's spirit actually trying to control Ocelot's mind but Ocelot being the resourceful person he is, finds a way to neutralize this. This would be what initially gave him the idea to fool everyone into thinking Liquid is still alive and gained control of Ocelot's mind to bring the world into ruin and crush the patriots.

I actually can't get access to the database because they haven't put it in PSN stores for PAL areas (US version doesn't recognise PAL save games), but from what I've seen on other forums, it seems that they didn't go into detail about Solidus. How he was created, who carried him in their womb, how he ended up in the pyx. Sure, he was no humanitarian but he was also trying to destroy the patriots. No, I did not want him to be "alive" in MGS4 like Big Boss, he played his role in MGS2 and there wasn't a great deal more they could have done with him but if anyone has stumbled across any information in the database about him. Who gave birth to him, how did he end up in the pyx etc. I'd appreciate it.

Well they said "The man with the same codename as Null" which everyone thought was Zero I guess.

Some people did argue that it was Roy Campbell (Chicken Fox) but at the time Frank Jaeger's codename was Null, he became Gray Fox 20-25 years after the events of Portable Ops. Obviously at the time, you couldn't prove with absolute certainty that Ocelot was talking to Zero, but it certainly did look that way. Just in the same way that you couldn't prove Sigint was the DARPA chief despite founding ARPA and the code to unlock him in PO+ being DARPA-5 or something similar.

Prior to MGS4 I suspected Big Boss, Ocelot and Zero being members. I thought Sigint was just working for them, not actually a member. I didn't bother to factor in Para-Medic, her being Dr. Clark caught me completely off-guard. EVA I was certain vanished and tried to start a new life in Hanoi until I saw her as Big Mama.

[Stiker]

Finished this amazing game yesterday and I can't wait to do future playthroughs for fun.

One thing I didn't get at the end of the game was the condition of Raiden. Unless I completely misunderstood what happened to him, I assumed that, much like Grey Fox, he was fashioned as a cyborg to keep him alive, artificial blood and all. However, at the end, he looks as if he's completely human again.

My guess was that he's still cyborg-like (still having artificial blood and such), but this time he got fashioned with human limbs.

Was late when I finished the game last night, so I could have missed something. And I didn't know about the database until I read this thread (stayed away from this until I beat the game) so it may have been answered there.

Any thoughts?

[Exoduso]

Finished this amazing game yesterday and I can't wait to do future playthroughs for fun.

One thing I didn't get at the end of the game was the condition of Raiden. Unless I completely misunderstood what happened to him, I assumed that, much like Grey Fox, he was fashioned as a cyborg to keep him alive, artificial blood and all. However, at the end, he looks as if he's completely human again.

My guess was that he's still cyborg-like (still having artificial blood and such), but this time he got fashioned with human limbs.

Was late when I finished the game last night, so I could have missed something. And I didn't know about the database until I read this thread (stayed away from this until I beat the game) so it may have been answered there.

Any thoughts?

If you're playing on an HD set play that scene again, you can clearly see that he has stitches all over his body, especially around his shoulders/arms... I guess they put the hands back together heh. Anyways, I believe the cyborg "body" is just a suit.

[wintersquall]

just beat this last night myself, starting over on extreme mode.


raiden didn't look completely human to me at the end... you can see all the lines on his skin from his biotech/implants, i.e. going from his mouth, shoulders, neck area. he just wasn't all dressed up in his ass-kicking suit +1 anymore.

speaking of raiden, holy omgwtf at him becoming such a badass....

[Stiker]

Finished this amazing game yesterday and I can't wait to do future playthroughs for fun.

One thing I didn't get at the end of the game was the condition of Raiden. Unless I completely misunderstood what happened to him, I assumed that, much like Grey Fox, he was fashioned as a cyborg to keep him alive, artificial blood and all. However, at the end, he looks as if he's completely human again.

My guess was that he's still cyborg-like (still having artificial blood and such), but this time he got fashioned with human limbs.

Was late when I finished the game last night, so I could have missed something. And I didn't know about the database until I read this thread (stayed away from this until I beat the game) so it may have been answered there.

Any thoughts?

If you're playing on an HD set play that scene again, you can clearly see that he has stitches all over his body, especially around his shoulders/arms... I guess they put the hands back together heh. Anyways, I believe the cyborg "body" is just a suit.

I'm not on HD set, but I did see the scar lines. Just wasn't sure if they were putting him back together as a machine or human. Some parts of the "ninja suit" looked pretty damn grafted to his entire body so that's where I got a little thrown I guess.

Anyways, guess my intuition of him still being somewhat cyborg was right -- was really going to call BS if they were trying to sell that his whole body/blood got completely transplanted back to normal lol

[Wintermute]

Finished this amazing game yesterday and I can't wait to do future playthroughs for fun.

One thing I didn't get at the end of the game was the condition of Raiden. Unless I completely misunderstood what happened to him, I assumed that, much like Grey Fox, he was fashioned as a cyborg to keep him alive, artificial blood and all. However, at the end, he looks as if he's completely human again.

My guess was that he's still cyborg-like (still having artificial blood and such), but this time he got fashioned with human limbs.

Was late when I finished the game last night, so I could have missed something. And I didn't know about the database until I read this thread (stayed away from this until I beat the game) so it may have been answered there.

Any thoughts?

If you're playing on an HD set play that scene again, you can clearly see that he has stitches all over his body, especially around his shoulders/arms... I guess they put the hands back together heh. Anyways, I believe the cyborg "body" is just a suit.

I'm not on HD set, but I did see the scar lines. Just wasn't sure if they were putting him back together as a machine or human. Some parts of the "ninja suit" looked pretty damn grafted to his entire body so that's where I got a little thrown I guess.

Anyways, guess my intuition of him still being somewhat cyborg was right -- was really going to call BS if they were trying to sell that his whole body/blood got completely transplanted back to normal lol

Does Raiden even have his jaw when in the Ninja Suit? I know he's got the mask, but I don't recall seeing a lower Gum at all when the camera focuses on him, just his teeth which the gums would usually hide.

Scars on his cheeks also match the contours of his mask.

Might just have been my Monitor or VGA Box cocking things up though.

[Koyuki]

Finished this amazing game yesterday and I can't wait to do future playthroughs for fun.

One thing I didn't get at the end of the game was the condition of Raiden. Unless I completely misunderstood what happened to him, I assumed that, much like Grey Fox, he was fashioned as a cyborg to keep him alive, artificial blood and all. However, at the end, he looks as if he's completely human again.

My guess was that he's still cyborg-like (still having artificial blood and such), but this time he got fashioned with human limbs.

Was late when I finished the game last night, so I could have missed something. And I didn't know about the database until I read this thread (stayed away from this until I beat the game) so it may have been answered there.

Any thoughts?

If you're playing on an HD set play that scene again, you can clearly see that he has stitches all over his body, especially around his shoulders/arms... I guess they put the hands back together heh. Anyways, I believe the cyborg "body" is just a suit.

I'm not on HD set, but I did see the scar lines. Just wasn't sure if they were putting him back together as a machine or human. Some parts of the "ninja suit" looked pretty damn grafted to his entire body so that's where I got a little thrown I guess.

Anyways, guess my intuition of him still being somewhat cyborg was right -- was really going to call BS if they were trying to sell that his whole body/blood got completely transplanted back to normal lol

Does Raiden even have his jaw when in the Ninja Suit? I know he's got the mask, but I don't recall seeing a lower Gum at all when the camera focuses on him, just his teeth which the gums would usually hide.

Scars on his cheeks also match the contours of his mask.

Might just have been my Monitor or VGA Box cocking things up though.

I never really saw lower gums either. Although his mask could be covering it up and only showing the teeth which is fucking awesome.