New JA animations:MNK BRD PLD JAs and Enspell II,Wyv breaths

[shirak]

It's a pretty big trade off just for a stronger phalanx
the point of rdm having phalanx II isn't that it's the strongest it's that they get it with their total package of tricks

actually, this is the reason rdm should consider not getting phalanxII, because it limits their "total package".

and comparing MP you save vs damage taken isn't proper in phalanx context. Preventing damage is always better then curing damage, and the MP saved isn't the rdm's alone it's all the healer's MP saved

Some beautiful sentiments here, have you figured in max paraII or max slowII damage "prevented" yet? How about all of "everyone's" mp you wasted while casting phalanxII on a utsusemi tank.

It's a rdm's primary job to keep others MP up (through refresh and through covering other jobs roles) if people have to worry about keeping the RDM's MP up, you've failed as a rdm. Period.

there is no other way to think about it

How does this compare phalanxII to the rest of their cat2 spells.

a spell that most regard as random, barely (if any) better then Paralyze I, for x6 the MP, good game. A spell that unlike slow does not have a set duration and can wear off at any moment and require repeated casting.

A spell that is about to have x10 macc, and x5 increased effect. You can't argue that Phalanx maxed is somehow god's gift to rdm then ignore what a max paraII could be.

Won't argue against slow II, but you don't cast it on everything

Ahh, what don't you cast it on except earth-based mobs. PhalanxII you cast only at the start of salvage predominately, or if theres no utsu being used, which is almost never.

[Ohemgee]

So you're saying, just because they're blink tanking, means that Phalanx II is worth casting on a tank?

Edit: Nvm. I see you're comparing a SCH using Phalanxga full time vs Phalanx II. Yeah its nice to have when its available, and it makes everything up to the boss hella easy. But thats just the extent of that. SCH's phalanx is just convenience.

[Kenji]

a spell that most regard as random, barely (if any) better then Paralyze I, for x6 the MP, good game. A spell that unlike slow does not have a set duration and can wear off at any moment and require repeated casting.

6x the mp cost? That's a stupid way of putting it, considering it's 36mp. Phalanx II is 42. OMG! Phalanx II is 7x the mp cost of paralyze! That must mean that Phalanx II is a *really* bad spell!

Won't argue against slow II, but you don't cast it on everything, Slow I is still potent and 1/3rd the cost. Bosses in salvage yeah by all means use Slow II

K, we agree on Slow II. Good spell. Not sure what you wouldn't cast it on, except for mobs like earth-based ones that will resist it a ton. And things that die really fast.

use Dia in salvage, if you think Bio III's dot and lowered enemy attack (lol, that's like thinking player defense does anything). Bio III is a rdm soloist spell for 100% land rate dot, nothing more.

...
Yes, lowering a mob's attack for a set amount of time. I don't see how that could ever be useful.

Damn, dude, just stop playing. On one hand, you argue Phalanx II is good because the tanks take less damage. Then argue against Bio III because... the tanks take less damage? On top of a nice DOT?

Dia III? read above, atleast it'llhelp more then bio III in salvage. Only other "etc" spell would be... Blind II (no comment)

Alright, so at the least, we merit Slow II and Dia III.

And curious question, but has there been any testing on Blind II?

It's cool that you wanna feel useful because you spent so many merit points on the spell, but at least be honest about how useful it is. I mean, sure, your LS is lacking in a highly useful job like SCH. That's a problem. If you wanna gimp yourselves like that, that's your choice.

And this one time, we tanked Tiamat with a WAR/WHM! Let me tell you how awesome a tank it is... and just ignore the fact that we don't have any paladins or ninja, so we make the best use out of the hand we're dealt.

[Havok]

I have to lol at the comparison of Bio 3 attack down to the damage reduction of phalanx 2.

Comparing the mp cost of phalanx 2 to the mp cost of paralyze is retarded as well. You aren't restricted to using one over the other like you are with paralyze against paralyze 2.

Not really paying attention to this argument at all, but those two things did stick out as incredibly retarded.

Unless you never have more than one RDM at any kind of event, it's pretty stupid to have every RDM in your LS merit the same shit anyway. All of the spells are usefull depending on what you actually use RDM for.

[Vail]

I have to lol at the comparison of Bio 3 attack down to the damage reduction of phalanx 2.

when bio III reduces magic damage, I'll think about it. Besides we like Dia II and Phalanx II so we can deal more damage and take less damage, something Bio III doesn't do.

Slow II: I don't cast this on every mob pulled considering the speed my group goes at in every salvage I'd deplet my MP within minutes using slow II on top of everything else I have to do. I stick to slow I for normal mobs. Slow II is reserved for bosses, NMs and mini-chariots

I'm glad I un-learned Paralyze II (just like I un-learned Blind II, though I learned blind II just to experiment with it) spending 36mp so often (since it's often likes to wear off equally as random as paralyze I)

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Blind II is nice in theory, but the formula appear to reduce the mob's Acc by 30 +/- a few depending on INT difference. Blind 1 is roughly -20 ACC again +/- a few acc. The formula is on a JP wiki page and is referenced in Blind II's discussion page on ffxi.wiki. Interestingly enough it appears that adding more merits into Blind II doesn't increase the -acc cap but rather decrease the amount of INT it takes to get a better effect, similar to putting further merits into slow II. Perhaps the same could be said for Paralyze II also...

Now if Blind status effect affected hit rate directly instead of r.acc/acc values, it might be useful to cast when there's anything except a NIN or a THF tanking. But even with Blind II and it's -30ish acc, a 225 evasion skill'd PLD is still gonna get hit more or less with the same frequency.

[Ahlah]

Can't believe the discussion still hasn't ended.

Preventing damage is always better then curing damage, and the MP saved isn't the rdm's alone it's all the healer's MP saved: That's a pretty big deal because it's other jobs that can't keep up to rdm's MP. If you're worried about keeping your MP up on rdm you're doing something very wrong cause unless you're bombing cure IV(you're tanks are getting hit more then you think they are) or nuking all over the place(wtf rdm nuking? GTFO), most of rdm's main spells are under 45mp. It's a rdm's primary job to keep others MP up (through refresh and through covering other jobs roles) if people have to worry about keeping the RDM's MP up, you've failed as a rdm. Period.

I guess by now a lot of ppl should realise normal rules don't apply to salvage - party setup/strategies that work in usual ffxi events may not work in salvage, the same reason why most groups bring MNK tanks instead of NIN or PLD, and PUP actually shine in salvage.

Unless you have a SCH, RDM is going to be mainhealing all the way from the moment party enter salvage until WHM has mp unlocked. This is not your typical endgame HNM fight when your WHM is capable of doing their job and RDM only throw in cure when necessary. Most experienced salvage groups only have 3 backline jobs (RDM, WHM and BRD), RDM is probably doing the same amount curing (if not more) as WHM, on top of that they have to keep refresh/haste up and debuffs enemies. Multi-tasking is the key to success in low man salvage, the same reason why ppl use DD tanks and bring RDM/SCH as mainhealer.

PhalanxII is a waste if both your tanks are competent and have magic/SJ unlocked. If your tanks can't keep shadow up because they suck at blink tanking then I suggest you replace them instead of burning your mp on PhalanxII when damage could have been prevented with skilled use of Utsusemi.

[Talint]

As a tank:
Do I need Phalanx II? Nope.
Am I glad to get Phalanx II when someone has it? Yep.

So, it's cool if you don't want to blow your merits on Phalanx II, because you think you're a cool, awesome, super selfish solo RDM that can kite Genbu for three hours and Bio III it to death so you can finally get those crimson feet you've always wanted. And it's nice that SCH/RDM can give a better version of Phalanx to everyone in the party (Magic, SJ, and Abilities - 3 cells, btw, as opposed to just Magic for RDM - 1 cell).

But any RDM who feels the need to help out a tank by meriting Phalanx II is a-ok in my book. =D>

[Virtuous Saint]

It is not better, don't know how many times i have to say this to morons.

[Sunrider]

Phalanx 2. 120-200,000(post update) exp upgrade requirement, at double the cost of Phalanx, for reduced potency. Equal to the cost of SCH/RDM's Accession/Phalanx, same potency, but single-target only.

I don't think of an unwillingness to merit this spell as selfishness, but rather, being economical. Argue what you like, it's reward simply does not equal the effort, and everything argued for this spell thus far is largely situational--about as situational as RDM meleé. Every instance argued in favor of Phalanx 2 can easily be replaced with a SCH/RDM, for less effort and greater gain.

But hey, you go ahead and put in work for that spell, whatever makes you feel special.

[Vail]

It is not better, don't know how many times i have to say this to morons.

in that case, you shouldn't even use DD jobs that do less damage either, cause others can do it better right?

[Virtuous Saint]

my statement was actually about phalanx II > sch phalanx
post-update kk?

[Vail]

my statement was actually about phalanx II > sch phalanx
post-update kk?

oh ok ok~
my statement still stands if they think if someone can do something better the others shouldn't even do the same effect

[Kyreth]

Yes, yes, we get it. SCH/RDM can do the same thing for less.

Once they have their cells. The second an RDM has access to magic, out comes the Phalanx II. There are places (and plenty of LS'es) that just plain don't have a Scholar on call to pull a Phalanxga off. That's because Scholars can't cast either Haste and Refresh. Even one of those would probably get them slotted in...even if they should be anyway, thanks to their group buff tricks...but Scholars are lower on most LS priority lists to get into a run.

When they don't, that's where Phalanx II is a handy spell. I've got Slow II 3/3, Phalanx II 3/3 (and I'll likely push it up to 5/5 and merit another spell 2/5). Is it the most versatile spell in the book for us? No. But it's handy and it's effects are most certainly non-random.

[Therin]

I've argued about some really stupid shit on these forums, but this just takes the cake.

[Tanthalass]

Why are we limiting this discussion solely to Salvage? Phalanx II definetly has its merits (no pun intended) in almost every aspect of endgame. I realize not every linkshell functions this way (it kinda depends on your number of SCHs, BRDs, RDMs, and WHMs I guess), but our standard tank party ends up being:
PLD
PLD
BRD
BRD
WHM
RDM

Theres no SCH in this situation (and we have 2 75 SCHs in the shell, we just put them to other, in our opinion better, usage). Ballads and Marches are overall more useful to our tanks then AoE SS/Phalanx, as are the WHMs abilities (Cure V, Regen III, Protectra/Shellra V, Devotion, Etc. I really don't need to explain the benefits of having certain jobs in the tank party). SCH could, in theory, replace a BRD or RDM or WHM, but they can't Haste or Refresh. On top of that, our BLMs really like Klimaform + Storm spells (which are a really nice increase in damage).

Sure, a SCH/RDM coul Phalanxga that tank party with a stronger Phalanx then my RDM with 3 Phalanx II merits can. Sure, he can do it for less MP. But RDM also has a much larger MP pool to spare then SCH, so it cuts down to whether or not you want 6 more points on your Phalanx and AoE Stoneskin, or Refresh and Haste. Its really not a difficult choice for most people. That, and Phalanx II will become slightly stronger then Phalanxga post-tomorrow, and the MP cost of Phalanxga vs Phalanx II is pretty much moot, meaning there is only 1 argument left against using it over Phalanxga: there are other spells to put merits into.

Slow II is an awesome spell, and I think we may start to see a lot of 5/5 Slow II 5/5 Phalanx II RDMs popping up. But meriting Slow II is the most obvious choice, and the spell that I think just about every RDM has merits in, so putting points in Phalanx II isn't interfering with Slow II.

Paralyze II is just a bad spell, the only reason to put extra merits into it is to increas accuracy. Maybe this will change, but atm I don't plan on putting any more then my current 1 merit into it (3 Phalanx II, 2 Slow II, 1 Paralyze II atm). Even with one merit, it really doesn't seem to do anything different then Paralyze I (I cast II just because it makes me feel good, but this really is just a waste of MP).

Bio III and Dia III are both a waste of MP at anything less then 3 merits, and even after that they're still unnecessary. Capped Bio III is a fun toy to use when soloing and will let you DoT Kite things to death faster, although not any more effectively. Dia III's 5% extra defense isn't going to save your chain or help you zerg faster. If you need it for any of those, get better melee's and/or better/more CORs and BRDs.

Blind II is an utter joke, with NIN's and THFs the only jobs that really evade when tanking endgame anyway. PLDs dont ever seriously evade anything, and I'd be extremely surprised if Blind II caused more then 1 extra hit on the tanks over Blind I at the least.

[tymora]

My group no longer uses WHM in salvage ~ Mainly because no one wants to go as one and also because WHM is redundant.

[shirak]

Paralyze II is just a bad spell, the only reason to put extra merits into it is to increas accuracy

and increase effect x1 per upgrade

Even with one merit, it really doesn't seem to do anything different then Paralyze I

this is defintely true, kinda like how phalanxII at less than 2merits is pretty lackluster

Blind II is an utter joke, with NIN's and THFs the only jobs that really evade when tanking endgame anyway

I'm not sure blindII is about the acc down, giving 640 VE seems pretty good for a spike. realistically though, we have blind and sleep and dispel and cures/convert which can hold hate plenty well enough.

[seiji]

yeah! no phalanxII for salvage firsts floors, and go bioIII/slowII/paraII every single mob that die before para have time to proc (you can cast only one you'll still spend a lot more MP than castin 1or2PxII every 3min)

SCH prio on JA? what your DD doing? switch for crappy high DPS weapon and go AFK?

[shukuffxi]

yeah! no phalanxII for salvage firsts floors, and go bioIII/slowII/paraII every single mob that die before para have time to proc (you can cast only one you'll still spend a lot more MP than castin 1or2PxII every 3min)

SCH prio on JA? what your DD doing? switch for crappy high DPS weapon and go AFK?

When we do Salvage, SCH gets magic + JA from the box. Every time. Nice to have a first floor where you are like 99% invincible from the first minute you enter, and kill speed is as fast, or faster than if you let a DD have JA first (of course, there are 2 JA in the box sometime, and first JA from a mob goes to a melee).

Anyone who thinks giving your SCH JA+Magic first is a waste hasn't played with a SCH in Salvage. I'm not saying it's the only way, but it's so safe and fast that it's easily as viable as giving a melee JA first.