Another Crack at the Dev Team

[Raji]

I'll second (third? fourth? me too?) the bit about wanting to know why the hell SE hasn't implemented some kind of basic security measures (security questions, software keyboards, IP checks, etc.) on POL to, at the very least, give the account jackers a few more hoops to jump through. I mean, it's great that they're finally getting around to restoring and unbanning everyone who got hacked back in November/December, but, uh, how about doing something to minimize the number of people that have to go through this whole dog and pony show in the first place? You know, an ounce of prevention for a pound of cure, and all that bull?

[Gilthas]

Bout the only way i can see them fixing zilart kings is make em all pops by trading to a ???. Pop item drops off any lvl 77+ monster in zilart areas. Can either pop nq or hq version. There, fixed kings so everyone has an equal shot, and got people to merit in zilart areas like SE was hardup to do all in one shot.

That would be horrible. Kings would be even more congested than they are, people would camp zilart mobs constantly 24/7 , the price of everything the kings drop would plummet, etc etc. The reason aside from the small size of the dev team that things are done so slowly, is because they have to consider every little factor when making a major change to this game.

Things would be easier if gil wasn't such a clutch in the game.

Yeah, I remember when SE made the change to Ulli a year (?) ago. People were rushing Enkidu's everywhere in sky and Despot was camped to hell. A year later you don't really see this anymore. Sure, this might not be the same in crowded servers, but I don't really see it on Ragnarok. Making kings a ??? pop would have the same effect, there would be a big rush after release and then it would end up dieing down after a few months.

As for the price of the stuff they drop going down, who the fuck cares? Didn't stop them from making dragon talons (or whatever is used in Weskits) an easy drop, didn't stop them from killing the Panther Mask market. I might be wrong, but I think the only expensive material that kings still drop are hides from Behemoth.

I think there's a really big problem when the difficulty in fighting Fafnir/Nidhogg/KB/Aspi is having to deal with botting linkshells than the difficulty of the mob itself. Only way to fix this is to remove the chance of botting them.

EDIT: and to remove having to compete with other linkshells for claim too if by some kind of miracle your server doesn't have botters.

[Yutuyu]

I'll second (third? fourth? me too?) the bit about wanting to know why the hell SE hasn't implemented some kind of basic security measures (security questions, software keyboards, IP checks, etc.) on POL to, at the very least, give the account jackers a few more hoops to jump through. I mean, it's great that they're finally getting around to restoring and unbanning everyone who got hacked back in November/December, but, uh, how about doing something to minimize the number of people that have to go through this whole dog and pony show in the first place? You know, an ounce of prevention for a pound of cure, and all that bull?

Very little of it has been their fault. The only big thing which can be blamed on them in regards to security is the weak passwords (which was immediately fixed upon widescale exploitation). Consider that this is SE's first MMO and it's 6 years old also.

From their point of view they're probably rather jaded about this. People don't abide by the user agreement; infact it's considered requisite in the endgame community to break it by downloading third party software to "enhance" your gaming experience. It's not really square's fault that their users are idiots and constantly compromise the security of their PC in ways they're consistently told NOT to. Whether Windower is to blame or not, you can't really blame the doctor for not giving you preventative medicine when you get a heart attack if you eat lard (even if that didn't actually have an affect on your particular heart attack). You're not even supposed to be giving out your password to anyone else.

People always talk like there's this massive rush of hackings and I don't know a single person ingame who was actually hacked. The worst part is how the hacking alarmists continually fail to consider how many of these "hackings" are actually friends stealing friends' accounts, people faking being hacked to make a buck off of people in their linkshell helping them recover, faking it to use it as an excuse to quit, etc.

The one thing they CAN clearly be blamed for was the horrible GM services in a response to the hacking, but again, it's somewhat understandable. For every person being hacked there's probably another lying about it because they're a scumfuck and see an easy way to turn a profit off of the charity of others. Think about all of the dishonesty you've encountered in this game; why wouldn't people be pretending to be hacked? It's moral infallibilty, pity, and attention.

[Myrrial]

I'll second (third? fourth? me too?) the bit about wanting to know why the hell SE hasn't implemented some kind of basic security measures (security questions, software keyboards, IP checks, etc.) on POL to, at the very least, give the account jackers a few more hoops to jump through. I mean, it's great that they're finally getting around to restoring and unbanning everyone who got hacked back in November/December, but, uh, how about doing something to minimize the number of people that have to go through this whole dog and pony show in the first place? You know, an ounce of prevention for a pound of cure, and all that bull?

Very little of it has been their fault. The only big thing which can be blamed on them in regards to security is the weak passwords (which was immediately fixed upon widescale exploitation). Consider that this is SE's first MMO and it's 6 years old also.

From their point of view they're probably rather jaded about this. People don't abide by the user agreement; infact it's considered requisite in the endgame community to break it by downloading third party software to "enhance" your gaming experience. It's not really square's fault that their users are idiots and constantly compromise the security of their PC in ways they're consistently told NOT to. Whether Windower is to blame or not, you can't really blame the doctor for not giving you preventative medicine when you get a heart attack if you eat lard (even if that didn't actually have an affect on your particular heart attack). You're not even supposed to be giving out your password to anyone else.

People always talk like there's this massive rush of hackings and I don't know a single person ingame who was actually hacked. The worst part is how the hacking alarmists continually fail to consider how many of these "hackings" are actually friends stealing friends' accounts, people faking being hacked to make a buck off of people in their linkshell helping them recover, faking it to use it as an excuse to quit, etc.

The one thing they CAN clearly be blamed for was the horrible GM services in a response to the hacking, but again, it's somewhat understandable. For every person being hacked there's probably another lying about it because they're a scumfuck and see an easy way to turn a profit off of the charity of others. Think about all of the dishonesty you've encountered in this game; why wouldn't people be pretending to be hacked? It's moral infallibilty, pity, and attention.

Whats this crap about Windower? Are you even paying attention? People are getting jacked for visiting Somepage. Using an FFXI search engine has -nothing- to do with third party software use. People are getting jacked because there are harmful banner ads and exploits through Flash. People are getting jacked for browsing the friggin' internet.

Just because -you- don't know anyone who has been hacked doesn't mean it isn't occuring. My friend who was going to craft my Khroma supply got hijacked a long while back and I had the pleasure of watching his character go and Delivery Box all his stuff into nothingness. Yes, I'm sure people do very stupid things and get hacked for it. But maybe, just maybe thats the exception and not the rule. You seem like an intelligent person but you honestly seem to have your head shoved kind of far up your arse on this matter.

[Yutuyu]

I'll second (third? fourth? me too?) the bit about wanting to know why the hell SE hasn't implemented some kind of basic security measures (security questions, software keyboards, IP checks, etc.) on POL to, at the very least, give the account jackers a few more hoops to jump through. I mean, it's great that they're finally getting around to restoring and unbanning everyone who got hacked back in November/December, but, uh, how about doing something to minimize the number of people that have to go through this whole dog and pony show in the first place? You know, an ounce of prevention for a pound of cure, and all that bull?

Very little of it has been their fault. The only big thing which can be blamed on them in regards to security is the weak passwords (which was immediately fixed upon widescale exploitation). Consider that this is SE's first MMO and it's 6 years old also.

From their point of view they're probably rather jaded about this. People don't abide by the user agreement; infact it's considered requisite in the endgame community to break it by downloading third party software to "enhance" your gaming experience. It's not really square's fault that their users are idiots and constantly compromise the security of their PC in ways they're consistently told NOT to. Whether Windower is to blame or not, you can't really blame the doctor for not giving you preventative medicine when you get a heart attack if you eat lard (even if that didn't actually have an affect on your particular heart attack). You're not even supposed to be giving out your password to anyone else.

People always talk like there's this massive rush of hackings and I don't know a single person ingame who was actually hacked. The worst part is how the hacking alarmists continually fail to consider how many of these "hackings" are actually friends stealing friends' accounts, people faking being hacked to make a buck off of people in their linkshell helping them recover, faking it to use it as an excuse to quit, etc.

The one thing they CAN clearly be blamed for was the horrible GM services in a response to the hacking, but again, it's somewhat understandable. For every person being hacked there's probably another lying about it because they're a scumfuck and see an easy way to turn a profit off of the charity of others. Think about all of the dishonesty you've encountered in this game; why wouldn't people be pretending to be hacked? It's moral infallibilty, pity, and attention.

Whats this crap about Windower? Are you even paying attention? People are getting jacked for visiting Somepage. Using an FFXI search engine has -nothing- to do with third party software use. People are getting jacked because there are harmful banner ads and exploits through Flash. People are getting jacked for browsing the friggin' internet.

Just because -you- don't know anyone who has been hacked doesn't mean it isn't occuring. My friend who was going to craft my Khroma supply got hijacked a long while back and I had the pleasure of watching his character go and Delivery Box all his stuff into nothingness. Yes, I'm sure people do very stupid things and get hacked for it. But maybe, just maybe thats the exception and not the rule. You seem like an intelligent person but you honestly seem to have your head shoved kind of far up your arse on this matter.

My point is, what's the point of laying down a bunch of security measures when the playerbase is downloading third party applications constantly which modify the running of the game. If they aren't willing to play by the rules that SE sets down, and infact completely disregards them, and that is a HUGE security whole, why should they go through the trouble of security their software?

No, I realize the flash exploit is responsible, I even kinda said that in my post (the bit about the eating lard not being responsible for the heart attack), but why should they bother to secure their software if the average person is just going to compromise that security anyway?

EDIT: Also you're right, just because I don't know a single person that was actually hacked doesn't mean that they aren't happening in large amounts. However that goes both ways, just because you know some people who were doesn't mean it's happening in large amounts.

The fact is we have no statistical data on what's going on. Until it's released from a reliable source, we can't say if it's a large problem or not, we're basing it on people's testimonies which are almost always full of complete bullshit.

[Myrrial]

The point of additional security measures should be obvious. There are reports of folks players on the friggin' XBox getting hijacked. I don't understand that -at all- and would honestly wager that those are cases like you said where theres some fishy business going on. But those folks sure as hell weren't downloading 3rd party applications over their PS2 or 360.

Lets be honest, additional security measures through PlayOnline would do nothing but help. It -would- be worth the time and effort to put such things together. I obviously can't speak about the number of incidents that occur with this hijacking stuff because, well, how would I know? But its happening more than it damned well should.

Honestly, its a funny game we play in. People are -completely- willing to screw one another over because Gil is worth as much as it is. In my decade of MMO gaming I've literally never seen a situation where the in-game currency was so highly valued.

[Yutuyu]

At the same time it's also good that gil is actually worth something. In the other MMOs I've played credits/pyreals were worthless. For every good feature there's a bad (though i don't know if I'd consider the economy a strong point for this game right now).

But returning to my point about windower, because I really do think people need to give this a thought. It absolutely is a security vulnerability. You may feel that these people are in good standing with the community and would never use that software maliciously against you, but you don't know them at all.

Taj was a former windower dev who maliciously hacked several people simply for being associated with a gilbuyer. Did anyone see that coming? No. Could the same happen with any of the other devs? Yes. You don't really get to know people over the internet; you only see a portion of their personality via this medium, and it's the part they want you to see. In reality most people who use windower have no idea who they're accepting the software from or how it actually affects their computer.

I can tell you that the only windower involved programmer I personally know is considered by most of my friends and me to be a complete fucking nut (not Taj, not Aikar, I won't give names). Then again this is the internet; I could be very well be lying.

[Kyreth]

[Yeah, I remember when SE made the change to Ulli a year (?) ago. People were rushing Enkidu's everywhere in sky and Despot was camped to hell. A year later you don't really see this anymore. Sure, this might not be the same in crowded servers, but I don't really see it on Ragnarok. Making kings a ??? pop would have the same effect, there would be a big rush after release and then it would end up dieing down after a few months.

As for the price of the stuff they drop going down, who the fuck cares? Didn't stop them from making dragon talons (or whatever is used in Weskits) an easy drop, didn't stop them from killing the Panther Mask market. I might be wrong, but I think the only expensive material that kings still drop are hides from Behemoth.

I think there's a really big problem when the difficulty in fighting Fafnir/Nidhogg/KB/Aspi is having to deal with botting linkshells than the difficulty of the mob itself. Only way to fix this is to remove the chance of botting them.

EDIT: and to remove having to compete with other linkshells for claim too if by some kind of miracle your server doesn't have botters.

Give each and every one of the HNM's in question an opening move of "Banishing Roar". Fires on spawning, wide circle AoE, larger than claim range by a significant amount.

Everyone under level 70 in the AoE gets a "Team Rocket" return to their homepoint. Resets hate and the HNM picks a target in claim range, gives THEM a large amount of enmity, and attacks. Give those same HNM's a "Challenging Roar" that eats some of the CE and VE of the target (with highest hate), then gives it to another target on the hatelist instead as a regular option in their TP attacks. Again, instant, non-stunnable. Every time the HNM defeats an enemy (or multiples at once), they will Challenging Roar for 0 TP and resume the rampage.

There is, nor would there ever be a way to fairly claim those HNM's as long as their current spawn system exists, and they're not going to a ??? spawn on something like this. Screw it. I want Nidhogg waking up, scaring off the sacrificial bots with a scream of rage, and lunging for whoever seems tasty at the time, eating them, and repeating the process until someone legitimately gets control of the situation of what's supposed to be a frickin' rampaging elemental force of destruction and chaos. Not an overgrown wyvern people go "LOL, Nidhogg's Scales." when they get drops.

Claiming becomes a moot point. Living through the experience of a pissed-off giant monster that's supposed to be fear incarnate would be. There is no fair method of claiming these monsters- even ??? items just mean it'll be race to see who bot-trades the item first, which is just as bad.

As long as players can have hate control from second 1 of the claim on these, botters will win. Having a mob that can switch targets midfight means that the one thing that -really- makes a monster dangerous happens. You're not guaranteed a yawnfest of control if Tiamat decides that she's going to send some of that hate your tank gave her over to your BLM, then have herself a victory and look around for more tasty Taru treats as the hatelist resets.

[Myrrial]

Maybe I'm just overly negative but I don't see how the digital currency being so valueable is a good thing. If my EQ or WoW characters had been completely stripped of their gear and money I would be angry but recovery wouldn't be horrific.

It would however, utterly destroy FFXI for me. I've been struggling for something like a year now--no joke--in using my free time to gather up enough of this damned money to develop Morrigan's Robe and if my savings thus far were to simply vanish the game would immediately be dead to me.

[Sho]

Maybe I'm just overly negative but I don't see how the digital currency being so valueable is a good thing. If my EQ or WoW characters had been completely stripped of their gear and money I would be angry but recovery wouldn't be horrific.

It would however, utterly destroy FFXI for me. I've been struggling for something like a year now--no joke--in using my free time to gather up enough of this damned money to develop Morrigan's Robe and if my savings thus far were to simply vanish the game would immediately be dead to me.

So true. So sad, but so very true. It's a real shame when one can say a game revolves around the accumulation of garnering a digital wealth. I've seen gil destroy lives in reality over this game quite a few times. And it did a number on myself a few times as well in the past. Time like skipping a real life day of working for real money to camp an NM with my old LS because I just needed gil so much at the time, lol.

[drwaffles]

*Post about how HNMs should change target randomly*

This is the single most retarded thing I've heard in quite some time...

[Snapples]

*Post about how HNMs should change target randomly*

This is the single most retarded thing I've heard in quite some time...

actually some mobs do cast on people on their hate pool that isnt their main target. eg an imp casting stun on the healer in your party while its still meleeing the samurai, i know you've all seen it and people thought imps were OMGSMART THEY ARE PLAYED BY GM'S when they were released

[Titanss]

Need someone who actually speaks Japanese to conduct a interview and who understands wtf is going on with end-game. I don't care if the AV thing has been beaten like a dead horse if you keep driving it in their heads their going to throw out a better bone.

[ringthree]

Maybe I'm just overly negative but I don't see how the digital currency being so valueable is a good thing. If my EQ or WoW characters had been completely stripped of their gear and money I would be angry but recovery wouldn't be horrific.

It would however, utterly destroy FFXI for me. I've been struggling for something like a year now--no joke--in using my free time to gather up enough of this damned money to develop Morrigan's Robe and if my savings thus far were to simply vanish the game would immediately be dead to me.

1. Maybe? LOL

2. This is the reason that WoW and EQ are not good games, and that FFXI is good. Most of the people that play FFXI do so because it is a challenge. In WoW and EQ there is comparatively far less challenge obtaining gear, and thus the need for constant obsolescence of old gear. Your statements beg the question of quality.

3. You are conflating game design and game security. Getting hacked has nothing to do with how hard or easy it is to get gear.

[Ramses]

This is stupid. Half of this thread is complaining that hnms are too easy and one is too hard. You want a challenge, go fight AV. Don't even suggest to them to make 5 year old hnms harder. It takes them forever to work on current content and you people want to distract them further with 5 year old content? If you want them to address botting, you need to rephrase the question. Every time I've seen them asked, botting was just thrown in at the end of the question and they seemed to think the question was about congestion more and didn't get that botting was such an issue. The question needs to be more like this:

Most players are frustrated that hnms are claimed exclusively by people using third party tools and you have done nothing to address this problem. Why do you continue to reward people who cheat and punish those who play by the rules? Will you ever do anything about this?

I mean how hard is it to stick a GM to supervise king pops during windows.

As far as AV, some of you people are really whiny, I can see why SE is annoyed with the issue. You all still think there is some magic way to make AV easy. There isn't. You beat AV by using strategy and being smart. I keep seeing people say there have been a million attempts and everything has been tried. Really? Where? There have been a moderate amount of haphazzard attempts. I've never seen anyone put together a great strategy and have it executed. Not once, not anywhere. There is one question that SE might answer. If someone asks an AV question, it should go something like this:

You cheated in the dev video by using SP moves way more often than every 2 hours. Players are very disheartened by this as they have not seen that AV can be beaten without cheating. Why did you cheat when we asked you specifically not to?

Asking it this way is mostly a manipulation to put them on the defensive and trick them into revealing at least a little something. It is not possible for them to answer that question without us learning something and even they should answer an accusation of cheating. I don't think their standard 'we cannot say anything more at this time' would cut it.

[Aquilo]

incomming the same answers the dev's have studied on index cards that will be so vague leaving the playerbase with thoughts of what the hell which leads to further confusion of things that are almost answered but not really answered.

Future interviews should include:

1. Bring a recorder of billcosby saying "the proof is in the pudding" and set it on auto repeat over and over again when talking about AV so when they ask what the hell is that say its what you hear when they talk about the AV video.

2. When talking about HNM(kings included) make sure you bring a fluffy horse teddy and a meat hammer so you can beat it infront of them yelling the most annoying thing "BOT BOT BOT BOT BOT, OH BOT BOT BOT BOT BOT BOT BOT YAY AT (insert cuss word here) bots!

3. When talking about wings of the goddess blow up a woopie cushion sit on it numerous times and when asked why you keep making fart sounds don't be afraid to tell them thats the noise their expansion patches have made since the release!

4. When talking about drop rates bring a 100-sided die and roll that shit saying "come on baby, daddie needs (insert your fav hnm/salvage/dynamis drop) and when the die doesn't land on 100 start cussing out loud and kicking chairs across the room.

5. finally when talking job adjustments make sure to hire an emo kid and dress them up to the latest job SE has neglected and arm the emo kid with razors to recite some emo poetry having them cut their wrists yelling out WHY, WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO ME.

I lol'd.

[Yutuyu]

This is stupid. Half of this thread is complaining that hnms are too easy and one is too hard. You want a challenge, go fight AV. Don't even suggest to them to make 5 year old hnms harder. It takes them forever to work on current content and you people want to distract them further with 5 year old content? If you want them to address botting, you need to rephrase the question. Every time I've seen them asked, botting was just thrown in at the end of the question and they seemed to think the question was about congestion more and didn't get that botting was such an issue. The question needs to be more like this:

Most players are frustrated that hnms are claimed exclusively by people using third party tools and you have done nothing to address this problem. Why do you continue to reward people who cheat and punish those who play by the rules? Will you ever do anything about this?

I mean how hard is it to stick a GM to supervise king pops during windows.

As far as AV, some of you people are really whiny, I can see why SE is annoyed with the issue. You all still think there is some magic way to make AV easy. There isn't. You beat AV by using strategy and being smart. I keep seeing people say there have been a million attempts and everything has been tried. Really? Where? There have been a moderate amount of haphazzard attempts. I've never seen anyone put together a great strategy and have it executed. Not once, not anywhere. There is one question that SE might answer. If someone asks an AV question, it should go something like this:

You cheated in the dev video by using SP moves way more often than every 2 hours. Players are very disheartened by this as they have not seen that AV can be beaten without cheating. Why did you cheat when we asked you specifically not to?

Asking it this way is mostly a manipulation to put them on the defensive and trick them into revealing at least a little something. It is not possible for them to answer that question without us learning something and even they should answer an accusation of cheating. I don't think their standard 'we cannot say anything more at this time' would cut it.

I agree with what you're saying mostly, but the thing is, SE clearly does not WANT to answer AV questions. I don't see why we should keep continuing to waste valuable resources on questions they're going to disregard as they have been for years.

[Apelila]

Why Cant I go to tavnazia in the past?

[Valkrish]

incomming the same answers the dev's have studied on index cards that will be so vague leaving the playerbase with thoughts of what the hell which leads to further confusion of things that are almost answered but not really answered.

Future interviews should include:

1. Bring a recorder of billcosby saying "the proof is in the pudding" and set it on auto repeat over and over again when talking about AV so when they ask what the hell is that say its what you hear when they talk about the AV video.

2. When talking about HNM(kings included) make sure you bring a fluffy horse teddy and a meat hammer so you can beat it infront of them yelling the most annoying thing "BOT BOT BOT BOT BOT, OH BOT BOT BOT BOT BOT BOT BOT YAY AT (insert cuss word here) bots!

3. When talking about wings of the goddess blow up a woopie cushion sit on it numerous times and when asked why you keep making fart sounds don't be afraid to tell them thats the noise their expansion patches have made since the release!

4. When talking about drop rates bring a 100-sided die and roll that shit saying "come on baby, daddie needs (insert your fav hnm/salvage/dynamis drop) and when the die doesn't land on 100 start cussing out loud and kicking chairs across the room.

5. finally when talking job adjustments make sure to hire an emo kid and dress them up to the latest job SE has neglected and arm the emo kid with razors to recite some emo poetry having them cut their wrists yelling out WHY, WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO ME.

I lol'd.

YES.

[ronin sparthos]

This is stupid. Half of this thread is complaining that hnms are too easy and one is too hard. You want a challenge, go fight AV. Don't even suggest to them to make 5 year old hnms harder. It takes them forever to work on current content and you people want to distract them further with 5 year old content? If you want them to address botting, you need to rephrase the question. Every time I've seen them asked, botting was just thrown in at the end of the question and they seemed to think the question was about congestion more and didn't get that botting was such an issue. The question needs to be more like this:

Or SE could just reveal the secret of AV putting AV on every HNMLS's farm list for years to come, add some loot to Gulool/Gurfy/Medusa - thus creating another THREE kings to fight, spruce up Hydra/Jorm/Vrtra - thus creating 3 MORE desired HNMs to kill, give Sandworm some drops - another desired HNM, add 3 new Wyrms in WotG (water, lightning, light) - creating another THREE HNMs to kill, add a new level to current Kings and port out the drops to KS99 (so yeah... it'll be crowded at first, but then everyone will run out of seals.)

So lets review this 'amazing' revelation that the devs somehow cant grasp:

-Revealing AVs Secret will make your players happy AND keep them doing sea content for months, if not years to come. The farming will keep players in sea, and the AV drops qualm people asking for new gear - for the time being.

-Gulool Ja Ja, Medusa and Gurfurlur the Menacing are located deep within dungeons and are harder than the 3kings - with some drops they can become targets for HNM shells again keeping them busy. Alternatively, adding these monsters and their respective 'pet' (Gulool's Hydra, Medusa's Khimaira, Gurfurlur's Cerberus) to an uncapped 18man arena requiring alot of Imperial Standing would provide yet another outlet for endgame activities with minimal work on the developers end.

-Hydra, Vrtra and Jormungand are dead content, adding loot to them keeps the players busy and again requires minimal effort on their end. They can spruce up the fights if they want, but simply adding desirable shit to them would keep the players busy.

-Sandworm, a useless HNM that could use some drops would guess what? keep players busy - his randomness in which zone he appears would make him semi-unique in spawn and would give the players a reason to use WotG.

-New Wyrms: Players like Dragons, they want more. We know you guys are creative so get to work making some more wyrms with unique spawns. Dont forget the decent drops but make the items unique along with the spawns being semi-unique. (Light Wyrm agrroing from above like a Yovra? Water-based wyrm dives beneath the water instead of flies?)

-KS99: Add the abjurations to them, as a rare drop. Keeps players busy farming seals instead of complaining about kings.