Another Crack at the Dev Team

[Khrno]

I wonder if our Japanese friends have the same heated arguements that we all do here.

The japanese guy I sold my gaiters to was asking why my entire LS was leaving the game and when I told him people were just bored and that the expansion didn't offer much he said his friends were very disappointed with the last verison up also said several of them quit the game after the verison up. He Also said "the expansion has nothing", this was his exact words.

so I think the japanese players are just as disappointed as NA players are about the expansion up to this point.

My HNMLS is a JP/EU one (about 70% JP, 25% EU, 5% NA that's it), and I'm certain they don't like many of the issues that we don't like here either. And If you get to check some JP bbs, 2ch or others specific for FFXI I'm sure you will finde all this same sort of things.

[ShuttleXpC]

SE's encryption is better then most other MMO's (which are a main variant of MD5 encryption)

This is where I become absolutely certain you don't know what you're talking about.

If you honestly think I'm talking about the server stored passwords, you're sadly mistaken. I am talking about the passwords stored on your system. Which quite a few MMO's such as; EQ2, Tabula Rasa and others use a variant of MD5 encyption to store your passwords client side, its the same with .pwl files that are protected on the windows system storing things like account password, problem with those they add about 1000 extra characters to the file, so your chances of ever cracking them especially if the password has numbers in it is very small.

You can read all sorts of crap about it here: http://lastbit.com/vitas/pwl.asp

Doubt you would read it though considering your amazing use of supporting examples when you accuse someone of something with a quote stating they are wrong, but not why.

You're being called on being an idiot because MD5 is a hashing algorithm, and not a form of encryption.

You're a real tard aren't you? Sit in the front of the class in High School I'm guessing?

"MD5 is widely used to store passwords." :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5

BTW, the Hash is the encryption. Its like a way for the program or app that is using it to fall back on to double check the data or password is correct.

Seriously. Don't even reply to this. Just read this and realize how dumb you are.

@Aurik: No, I have no clue what form of encryption the passwords for the POL viewer are stored in, I have not been able to crack any of them with common MD5 collisions.

[Kiyuan98]

Internet anger.

[ShuttleXpC]

Internet anger.

I'm seriously trying to be nice to these people, yet 2 have came in here acting like they know whats going on. Well...guess what? They don't. I have zero patience for dumb people, and -10 patience for people who believe they know what they're talking about while posting what they obviously don't know.

You weren't one of those 2 either Aurik, no problem-o with you.

[evilpaul]

If people compromise their own PCs with trojans, keyloggers, and whatnot, I don't see how they expect SE to keep their accounts secure. That falls into cleaing up and fixing things after the fact category.

[ShuttleXpC]

If people compromise their own PCs with trojans, keyloggers, and whatnot, I don't see how they expect SE to keep their accounts secure. That falls into cleaing up and fixing things after the fact category.

That's exactly what I was telling that one person a few pages back. SE does exactly what other companies do and she/he/it was complaining that they (SE) don't do enough to keep your account secure. This service they offer isn't some sort of Lifelock shit you see on TV, people are out to get your info and if you don't pro-actively try to defend yourself...you deserve it IMHO.

Ton's of others here on this forum have offered great advice on keeping your account info secure. Things such as using the on-screen keyboard to enter info, saving your p-word to your system are a few that have been named here. Sure, there are a few key-loggers that do screen caps, but if you have something like that on your system and you don't know...you honestly deserve it. I stated a few posts back how virus scanners defend your system even if they don't have the virus signature of a current/new key-logger. Your virus scanner no matter how outdated would know when something is trying to screen-cap your system or worse, transmit through email keystrokes from your system.

BTW Paul, love the Opaline -.-

[aurik]

@Aurik: No, I have no clue what form of encryption the passwords for the POL viewer are stored in, I have not been able to crack any of them with common MD5 collisions.

So how do you know if the encryption is better or worse than any other MMO?

[ShuttleXpC]

@Aurik: No, I have no clue what form of encryption the passwords for the POL viewer are stored in, I have not been able to crack any of them with common MD5 collisions.

So how do you know if the encryption is better or worse than any other MMO?

Because I haven't been able to figure out any of the encrypted passwords with common exploits. I'm not saying its amazingly hard to crack, just saying that I have yet to see any way for them to crack the POL passwords. I know a few years back I heard of a way to do it, but never saw proof of it. The only ways I've heard of people being compromised thus far are these:

1) You gave your "friend" your pass then mysteriously all your shit was gone along with your info being changed.

2) You somehow got a keylogger on your system and it is sending your info as you type it in (along with screen-caps of your POL ID as you are at the login menu).

3) You are copypast'ing your password into the login info and the clipboard info is being sent along with your keylogged items.

I haven't heard of many people who were using on-screen keyboard with their passwords being saved having problems. I know I've seen a few people mention it, like certain others on GFaq's who then later admitted they gave their account info out to other "friends" Thats like 95% of most people's problems, yet they are too proud or stubborn to admit that they gave their info out, or to admit their "friend" jacked them.

If you have any sort of process guard, it will stop almost all cases of any offending dll being appended to the POl client. Hell, it even picks up Windower trying to append itself to the POL client and will warn you. I use Kaspersky btw with the process guard activated.

[aurik]

@Aurik: No, I have no clue what form of encryption the passwords for the POL viewer are stored in, I have not been able to crack any of them with common MD5 collisions.

So how do you know if the encryption is better or worse than any other MMO?

Long diatribe that ends in "I don't"

K, just checking.

[Viena]

You're being called on being an idiot because MD5 is a hashing algorithm, and not a form of encryption.

You're a real tard aren't you? Sit in the front of the class in High School I'm guessing?

"MD5 is widely used to store passwords." :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5

BTW, the Hash is the encryption. Its like a way for the program or app that is using it to fall back on to double check the data or password is correct.

Although related, hashing =/= encryption.

POL is never going to store a hash, basically because from a hashed password (let's remember that hashing is a one way function) you can't really recover the password that it originally represented, which has to be sent to the servers to login. Yes, hashing is used to store passwords, but that's done on the servers, where you have no need to know what the original password was: when someone attempts to login, the password is sent to the server, hashed by the server, and compared with the password's hash for that account.

If a client was meant to send the hashed password to the server and the server just compared what was sent with what's stored on its database it would be just as unwise as storing plain passwords on the server database.

Besides, SE's encryption algorithms aren't widely used, and that's not a good thing: there's a reason why they aren't widely used, they are known to be relatively weak.

However, that has little relevance, given that the real problem is the lack of a proper account/character recovery system and methods to prevent easy access to the account management options. Things that even many free MMORPGs manage do properly.

[bercus]

@Lord
Yes 2 years ago I got told it would be nice to have every month a Interview with around 10 questions.
This was never possible. I don´t think I need to mention why.

Still looking forward to this Interview . Which is an actual interview because you can respond to their answers.
I will get notified soon probably if Square Enix will be at this years Games Convention. (which is in 2.5 months).
And if they are there I will be there too .

[shukuffxi]

@Lord
Yes 2 years ago I got told it would be nice to have every month a Interview with around 10 questions.
This was never possible. I don´t think I need to mention why.

I don't know why? Because it would be a sensible thing to do? Logical? Have the playerbase think the company has some kind of rapport with them? I honestly do not see any reason such a thing couldn't happen, aside from the fact that this is SE we're talking about.

[[Cookies]]

@Aurik: No, I have no clue what form of encryption the passwords for the POL viewer are stored in, I have not been able to crack any of them with common MD5 collisions.

So how do you know if the encryption is better or worse than any other MMO?

Because I haven't been able to figure out any of the encrypted passwords with common exploits. I'm not saying its amazingly hard to crack, just saying that I have yet to see any way for them to crack the POL passwords. I know a few years back I heard of a way to do it, but never saw proof of it. The only ways I've heard of people being compromised thus far are these:

1) You gave your "friend" your pass then mysteriously all your shit was gone along with your info being changed.

2) You somehow got a keylogger on your system and it is sending your info as you type it in (along with screen-caps of your POL ID as you are at the login menu).

3) You are copypast'ing your password into the login info and the clipboard info is being sent along with your keylogged items.

I haven't heard of many people who were using on-screen keyboard with their passwords being saved having problems. I know I've seen a few people mention it, like certain others on GFaq's who then later admitted they gave their account info out to other "friends" Thats like 95% of most people's problems, yet they are too proud or stubborn to admit that they gave their info out, or to admit their "friend" jacked them.

If you have any sort of process guard, it will stop almost all cases of any offending dll being appended to the POl client. Hell, it even picks up Windower trying to append itself to the POL client and will warn you. I use Kaspersky btw with the process guard activated.

My account was stolen yesterday. No one, and I mean, literally no one, other than myself, had my password. Oh, then there is the fact that my password has been saved for about 6 months. Care to explain how it happened?

[Meian]

]

@Aurik: No, I have no clue what form of encryption the passwords for the POL viewer are stored in, I have not been able to crack any of them with common MD5 collisions.

So how do you know if the encryption is better or worse than any other MMO?

Because I haven't been able to figure out any of the encrypted passwords with common exploits. I'm not saying its amazingly hard to crack, just saying that I have yet to see any way for them to crack the POL passwords. I know a few years back I heard of a way to do it, but never saw proof of it. The only ways I've heard of people being compromised thus far are these:

1) You gave your "friend" your pass then mysteriously all your shit was gone along with your info being changed.

2) You somehow got a keylogger on your system and it is sending your info as you type it in (along with screen-caps of your POL ID as you are at the login menu).

3) You are copypast'ing your password into the login info and the clipboard info is being sent along with your keylogged items.

I haven't heard of many people who were using on-screen keyboard with their passwords being saved having problems. I know I've seen a few people mention it, like certain others on GFaq's who then later admitted they gave their account info out to other "friends" Thats like 95% of most people's problems, yet they are too proud or stubborn to admit that they gave their info out, or to admit their "friend" jacked them.

If you have any sort of process guard, it will stop almost all cases of any offending dll being appended to the POl client. Hell, it even picks up Windower trying to append itself to the POL client and will warn you. I use Kaspersky btw with the process guard activated.

My account was stolen on Saturday. No one, and I mean, literally no one, other than myself, had my password. Oh, then there is the fact that my password has been saved for about 6 months. Care to explain how it happened?

You went to somepage? or didn't update adobe flash?

[Shuemue]

Bercus, your efficient persistence with your pursuit of SE is probably what I admire most about Germans.

[[Cookies]]

]

@Aurik: No, I have no clue what form of encryption the passwords for the POL viewer are stored in, I have not been able to crack any of them with common MD5 collisions.

So how do you know if the encryption is better or worse than any other MMO?

Because I haven't been able to figure out any of the encrypted passwords with common exploits. I'm not saying its amazingly hard to crack, just saying that I have yet to see any way for them to crack the POL passwords. I know a few years back I heard of a way to do it, but never saw proof of it. The only ways I've heard of people being compromised thus far are these:

1) You gave your "friend" your pass then mysteriously all your shit was gone along with your info being changed.

2) You somehow got a keylogger on your system and it is sending your info as you type it in (along with screen-caps of your POL ID as you are at the login menu).

3) You are copypast'ing your password into the login info and the clipboard info is being sent along with your keylogged items.

I haven't heard of many people who were using on-screen keyboard with their passwords being saved having problems. I know I've seen a few people mention it, like certain others on GFaq's who then later admitted they gave their account info out to other "friends" Thats like 95% of most people's problems, yet they are too proud or stubborn to admit that they gave their info out, or to admit their "friend" jacked them.

If you have any sort of process guard, it will stop almost all cases of any offending dll being appended to the POl client. Hell, it even picks up Windower trying to append itself to the POL client and will warn you. I use Kaspersky btw with the process guard activated.

My account was stolen on Saturday. No one, and I mean, literally no one, other than myself, had my password. Oh, then there is the fact that my password has been saved for about 6 months. Care to explain how it happened?

You went to somepage? or didn't update adobe flash?

I use Mozilla Firefox and No-Script. It is possibly because I didn't update Adobe Flash, I didn't think it would be a problem though, as I haven't logged into FFXI on my PC in months. The only way my account could have been jacked, is if my encrypted password was stolen, then used to login (or can they not use it if its encrypted?).

http://www.staronion.com/maiev/nfblog/?p=461

If this is correct, then the answer is yes, they can use the encrypted password, but if you use Login Verification (I literally only just learned of this, little too late) then they can't change your password/details.

[chi]

None of what you just said changes the fact that it was never the developer's intention to have people sit around at King camps for nine hours a day. Sure, they were short-sighted. Sure, the fact that Kings are the way they are is largely due to the aforementioned short-sightedness. Sure, they should get off their asses and make some changes or add new content that will alleviate the general shititude of camping Kings. But at no point did they sit around a conference table and decide "hey, let's add mobs to the game that people will have to compete with each other for by sitting around where they pop for hours on end!".

Back when Kings were first released (on some servers at least) they would often be up for quite some time before a group gathered to take them down - that was the original intention of the developers. To implement extremely strong monsters in remote areas that would roam around until people brave enough to attempt killing them showed up. Sure, it didn't last long, but that was the original intention. Please note that this doesn't mean I don't think SE is totally incompetent and deserves a good slap.

There are still those of us who remember gathering at Fafnir on a whim while it was up and running around. Even wiping repeatedly because we really didn't know that it was doing that AoE shit because we were hitting its tail. But it was early spring 04 and if your in-house weeaboo who could scour JP sites wasn't on to tell you what you were don't wrong, you were left pretty blind. No one else was really doing kings. But even back then, if it was JP time you'd have at least 2 JP LS who would sit through the whole three hours. Kings turning to shit happened within months of them being added, especially on servers where the JPs went on a movement to cockblock NAs from them.

That being said, we all kept camping them. It was still kinda fun.

The devs didn't expect NINs to start tanking, people to sit there and fish rusty caps for hours on end (much less make 10+ mules to fish them and another 5 to farm your crystals), or that people would actually want to play DRG. In each case, for better or worse, they nerfed, fixed, or even embraced what the players had done with the game. So it's idiocy to say that what's become of kings isn't the dev's fault because it's what the players made of it. It's what would naturally happen to a system of its nature after dumping TWO MORE CONTINENTS FULL OF PEOPLE ON IT. (On top of that latency "fix" that made botting incredibly awesome.)

Sorry for late reply, but seriously. Oldfaggotry argument fails too.

[Ramses]

None of what you just said changes the fact that it was never the developer's intention to have people sit around at King camps for nine hours a day. Sure, they were short-sighted. Sure, the fact that Kings are the way they are is largely due to the aforementioned short-sightedness. Sure, they should get off their asses and make some changes or add new content that will alleviate the general shititude of camping Kings. But at no point did they sit around a conference table and decide "hey, let's add mobs to the game that people will have to compete with each other for by sitting around where they pop for hours on end!".

Back when Kings were first released (on some servers at least) they would often be up for quite some time before a group gathered to take them down - that was the original intention of the developers. To implement extremely strong monsters in remote areas that would roam around until people brave enough to attempt killing them showed up. Sure, it didn't last long, but that was the original intention. Please note that this doesn't mean I don't think SE is totally incompetent and deserves a good slap.

There are still those of us who remember gathering at Fafnir on a whim while it was up and running around. Even wiping repeatedly because we really didn't know that it was doing that AoE shit because we were hitting its tail. But it was early spring 04 and if your in-house weeaboo who could scour JP sites wasn't on to tell you what you were don't wrong, you were left pretty blind. No one else was really doing kings. But even back then, if it was JP time you'd have at least 2 JP LS who would sit through the whole three hours. Kings turning to shit happened within months of them being added, especially on servers where the JPs went on a movement to cockblock NAs from them.

That being said, we all kept camping them. It was still kinda fun.

The devs didn't expect NINs to start tanking, people to sit there and fish rusty caps for hours on end (much less make 10+ mules to fish them and another 5 to farm your crystals), or that people would actually want to play DRG. In each case, for better or worse, they nerfed, fixed, or even embraced what the players had done with the game. So it's idiocy to say that what's become of kings isn't the dev's fault because it's what the players made of it. It's what would naturally happen to a system of its nature after dumping TWO MORE CONTINENTS FULL OF PEOPLE ON IT. (On top of that latency "fix" that made botting incredibly awesome.)

Sorry for late reply, but seriously. Oldfaggotry argument fails too.

The latency fix was 100% the fault of NA players because latency was a figment of their imagination. I live in NJ for ffs and outclaimed jps all the time. SE tested for latency and said there was none. NA players kept bitching though and so now we have the crappy claim delay.

[Viena]

]I use Microsoft Firefox and No-Script.

I should try it, Mozilla Internet Explorer is what I've been using.

[chi]

The latency fix was 100% the fault of NA players because latency was a figment of their imagination. I live in NJ for ffs and outclaimed jps all the time. SE tested for latency and said there was none. NA players kept bitching though and so now we have the crappy claim delay.

The quotes around the word fix are there because that isn't the word I'd use for it either.

If there was any real claiming discrepancies, it was PS2 vs PC-only NA players back then. The players who had fast PCs tended to see better results, and as the NA PS2 wave started to hit 75, one couldn't help but notice that those people were lightning fast.

The update did eventually level the playing field in terms of "it's okay! we all bot now!"