Slow, Hojo, and Slow II

[Maxxthepenguin]

Slow II will still probably be pretty great for HNM... I mean, can you cap MND on those?

[Spekkio]

based on the graph above, it looks like different tiers of slow2 have different caps... can you provide us with your raw data, kirschy so that we can line it up with that graph and see if there's a discrepancy and try to line it up with what we knew before? we know they monkeyed with haste/slow in some fashion, see the weakness recasts, so it's possible they fiddled with haste on a more global level. this testing seems awful important since a lot of rdm are getting set to go 5/5 slow2/para2, but if the extra merits into slow2 are unnecessary, this testing could have a profound effect on how we merit.

[fishstix]

Sorry to hear you got hacked

[Kyreth]

Being able to punch a Slow II through on HNM's makes me think about 5-meriting this anyway, especially since I'm unsure I can cap MND on those.

But for the average RDM, you could likely 3-merit this and still be OK.

[Epical]

Am I reading that graph right? And Slow II with 2 merits and capped MND > Slow II with 3 merits and capped MND?

[Spekkio]

Am I reading that graph right? And Slow II with 2 merits and capped MND > Slow II with 3 merits and capped MND?

i think the graph just failed to include enough data points for slow2@3 merits. you notice there's no plateauing of the data on that curve, just a steady increase which tells us nothing about the cap on it. the only relevant data in it towards a cap are the 1 and 2 merit datasets.

[Rheya]

Am I reading that graph right? And Slow II with 2 merits and capped MND > Slow II with 3 merits and capped MND?

i think the graph just failed to include enough data points for slow2@3 merits. you notice there's no plateauing of the data on that curve, just a steady increase which tells us nothing about the cap on it. the only relevant data in it towards a cap are the 1 and 2 merit datasets.

Correct. If anyone has data for Slow II with 3 merits where your caster is 45+ MND over the target, I will add it to the graph to complete the curve.

I don't think I'll be able to play for over a week, so I can't test myself for a while.

[Epical]

Well I have Slow II @3 merits, so what would I need to do to finish the graph?

[Spider-Dan]

I'm wondering if Earth Shot can push either Slow over their respective caps.

[Zoot]

As you can see, Earth Shot doesn't help Slow II whatsoever. Slow II's cap, at least at level 3, is still higher than a full potency Slow I + Earth Shot. However, when your delta MND is not capped, Slow I + Earth Shot will be stronger than Slow II. Comparing my data with those of other's, Quick Draw appears to add ~10% to the effectiveness of applicable spells up to a cap of 34-35%.

From the same LJ I posted earlier.

[Rheya]

As you can see, Earth Shot doesn't help Slow II whatsoever. Slow II's cap, at least at level 3, is still higher than a full potency Slow I + Earth Shot. However, when your delta MND is not capped, Slow I + Earth Shot will be stronger than Slow II. Comparing my data with those of other's, Quick Draw appears to add ~10% to the effectiveness of applicable spells up to a cap of 34-35%.

From the same LJ I posted earlier.

I would be interested in seeing numbers from a Quick Draw'd Slow II at lower levels of delta MND. The tests from that LJ (found here again for convenience) only QD'd a Slow II that was 74 MND above the target...which is already near the cap.

My bet is that Earth Shot does help Slow II, but only if you aren't already at the cap.

Epical, to complete the curve for Slow II with 3 merits, you'd need a rent Diorama and bring a willing friend. Your friend should not be a RDM nor subbing RDM nor have any Fast Cast gear. Have them cast any spell with a decent recast timer...say Ni, Gravity, Reraise, etc. Record the recast timer. Once the timer has reset to 0, cast Slow II on them with a known MND delta (preferably starting at 45 and working up to 90, if it's possible to reach that) and record the new recast time. Continue the process as you continue to pile on MND gear so that your MND exceeds theirs by 90.

[Zoot]

As you can see, Earth Shot doesn't help Slow II whatsoever. Slow II's cap, at least at level 3, is still higher than a full potency Slow I + Earth Shot. However, when your delta MND is not capped, Slow I + Earth Shot will be stronger than Slow II. Comparing my data with those of other's, Quick Draw appears to add ~10% to the effectiveness of applicable spells up to a cap of 34-35%.

From the same LJ I posted earlier.

I would be interested in seeing numbers from a Quick Draw'd Slow II at lower levels of delta MND. The tests from that LJ (found here again for convenience) only QD'd a Slow II that was 74 MND above the target...which is already near the cap.

My bet is that Earth Shot does help Slow II, but only if you aren't already at the cap.

That's something I hadn't thought of. I do know he took information from a variety of sources and cross referenced it, but there's no direct testing of Earth Shot with Slow II level 1 or 2 or even a lower potency 3 shown here. I know the reason we didn't do it at level 1 or 2 was that both of us were at level 3 at the time, but I don't remember why we didn't do it at a lower potency.

Edit: But now that I've thought of it some, if it actually does do that then it wouldn't really follow that it pushes slow I over its cap, as well as every other slow spell. If it were the case, Slow II would be the only exception to the rule in that the ~10% could not be added to the cap.

Also, if it's possible, is there a collection of the data used for these tests?

[Virtuous Saint]

Be huge help if someone tested 5 merits in slowII asap after update, and posted it here, as to cap% ect.

Would also be cool if someone posted paraII proc rate, as I have not seen this really, and obviously someone with 5 merits in it after update. I have not merited paraII because from what I have seen, it doesn't increase potency much.

I am sure that Magic Burst only adds acc for enfeebling based spells, however it would be a great test if someone tried this to check for potency increase on slow, although it would be rather difficult to test properly. I suppose a MB'd sleep would make this easier, simply time it knowing sleep1:1min sleep2:1min30sec.

[Repairs]

How much mind do HNM's have? We talking 100+ or more like 80?

[Virtuous Saint]

How much mind do HNM's have? We talking 100+ or more like 80?

unknown and nearly impossible to figure out, however if they were known it would be a huge help really.. anyway to get a rough estimate I would say 1: parse how many attacks/min, then cast slowII, and parse number of attacks/min, put that into slow formula for slow% thus giving you some idea of your mnd - target mnd. 2: cast a nuke, gearless, make sure you didn't get resist, then calculate target's INT, and simply assume it's other attributes are somewhat in that ballpark, however this is pretty much not very likely, but w/e! (very doubtful it would be anywhere near accurate but..)

other than that... no clue

[fantasticdan]

Couldn't you figure out an hnms mnd by using mnd based nukes?

[RKenshin]

Great tests once again, but sorry to hear about your account man.

Is everything OK? Manage to get it back before any damage done or no or still unsure? ><

Hope things work out OK for you.

[Virtuous Saint]

Couldn't you figure out an hnms mnd by using mnd based nukes?

Not sure what you mean by that; explain?

[Vail]

Couldn't you figure out an hnms mnd by using mnd based nukes?

Not sure what you mean by that; explain?

magic attacks have an INT vs INT formula (elemental magic) and MND vs MND formula (divine magic)

it allows a mage to nuke a monster (with ES preferably) to figure out the damage, then plug in their own INT/MND into the formula and just simple alegebra solve for monster's INT/MND

[Suiram]

Pretty sure this was what Kirschy did here, based on previous threads about Banish formula.