Slow, Hojo, and Slow II

[AzazaelFenrir]

Kirschy once I get my slow II to level 2 I will let you know, that way if you want to test your new model in PvP we can. I should still have some points left.

[Aux]

All right! Super kudos on the testing Kirschy and Maiev!

I think it's a bit safe to make a quick assumption over from the previous cliffnotes:

-Slow 2 /w 3 merits has a higher cap than Slow 2 /w 2 merits
-Slow I caps at 29%ish
-Slow II /w 1 merit caps at 35%ish
-Slow II /w 2 merits caps at 35%ish
-Slow II /w 3 merits caps at 37%ish

- Slow II w/ 4 merits caps out at ~37-39% (Unknown)
- Slow II w/ 5 merits caps out at 39%

Definitely a plus to merit for sure.

[Repairs]

So what I'm getting from this is:

* Each merit raises cap % for slow2 and adjusts the mnd to mnd calculation to be more favourable
* To reach full cap for slow2 (% based on merit), you must have 75 more mnd then your mob your casting on.
* You must have all 5 merits in slow 2 to reach the max cap of 39%
?

Also, was asking about HNM mnd previously and not sure what the conclusion was? Seeing that you need 75 more mnd then your mob to reach cap, I'm hoping that most only have like 70-80 mnd... if they have like 100... you could never get close to cap...?


I really wish they made it a lot easier for rdm... I like all our tier2 merits and I have been in all sorts of battles where I wish I had other tier2 merits. Having to put 5 in one category really limits our versitility...

[Shaard]

So with my extremely slow thinking today due to getting no sleep:

-Slow II has a lower MNDotency ratio than Slow.

I take this to mean it takes less mnd to hit this supposed 39% cap according to this latest round of testing? 5/5 slow 2 is as good as it sounds then?

If I understand well, since it takes 75 MND to go from 27% Slow (dMND = 0) to 39% Slow (cap), you need approximately 6.25 MND for each extra % of Slow II (instead of 5 for Slow I).

[Snapples]

So with my extremely slow thinking today due to getting no sleep:

-Slow II has a lower MNDotency ratio than Slow.

I take this to mean it takes less mnd to hit this supposed 39% cap according to this latest round of testing? 5/5 slow 2 is as good as it sounds then?

If I understand well, since it takes 75 MND to go from 27% Slow (dMND = 0) to 39% Slow (cap), you need approximately 6.25 MND for each extra % of Slow II (instead of 5 for Slow I).

slow2 lvl5 starts at 27% slow with 0 dMND, or slow2 lvl1 starts there? im asking do the higher tier merits raise the cap for slow but not the base value at 0 dMND? or does the 0 value go up as well

[Shaard]

slow2 lvl5 starts at 27% slow with 0 dMND, or slow2 lvl1 starts there? im asking do the higher tier merits raise the cap for slow but not the base value at 0 dMND? or does the 0 value go up as well

Slow II level 5 starts at 27% with dMND = 0, according to the test posted a few posts above.

[Aselin]

All right! Super kudos on the testing Kirschy and Maiev!

I think it's a bit safe to make a quick assumption over from the previous cliffnotes:

-Slow 2 /w 3 merits has a higher cap than Slow 2 /w 2 merits
-Slow I caps at 29%ish
-Slow II /w 1 merit caps at 35%ish
-Slow II /w 2 merits caps at 35%ish
-Slow II /w 3 merits caps at 37%ish

- Slow II w/ 4 merits caps out at ~37-39% (Unknown)
- Slow II w/ 5 merits caps out at 39%

Definitely a plus to merit for sure.

My RDM currently has 7 Merits total in Group II:
- Phalanx II @ 3
- Paralyze II @ 3
(Those were the first two I capped before update.)
- Slow II @ 1
(Added that after update.)

Looking at these tests, going from Slow II with 3 merits to Slow II with 5 merits doesn't show a great deal of difference. According to the tests above, maybe about 2% potency increase in Slow II between 3 and 5 merits.

So, in your opinion, since I have 3 more merits left to add to Group II, would it be best to go Slow II @ 3 and have the last Merit in either Dia III or Bio III? Or, go Slow II @ 4 seeing that above it seems to be the middle ground between 3 and 5 Merits?

I don't do much HNMs nowadays save for KS99, Limbus, Sky, Sea, Einherjar, and Salvage. I haven't done Fafnir in a week when a bunch of random players got together to kill Fafnir right after the last update, and before then, six months since my last Fafnir. I was considering 3 in Slow II then put 1 merit in either Bio III or Dia III seeing that both benefit in Sea and Salvage. However, with these tests, it looks like going to Slow II @ 4 Merits is a good middle ground. I'd rather round out my RDM more so than anything else.

===============================================
Slight tangent:

In regards to the last poster about instruments, I have learned that not all "+1" instruments increase the potency of a song.

Songs that do benefit from "+1" instruments would be the following:
- Minuet
- March
- Madrigal
- Elegy
- Requiem
- Carol

Optional:
- Paeon
- Mambo (Won't use Mambo much in endgame except in very rare situations.)
- Etude (I haven't used Etude much in a year, but it's nice to have.)
- Minne (Last time I've used this was for a BLU who needed the Defense boost for Cannonball.)

"+1" instruments that only increase duration of a song:
- Threnody
- Mazurka
- Lullaby (Tests have shown that accuracy is better with Mary's Horn than Nursemaid's Harp.)

And, the only instrument that helps with both potency and duration is, of course, Gjallarhorn. (I don't think it affects Mazurka in any fashion in terms of duration, but I'll leave that to others to find out.)

So, it's not a benefit to carry all those instruments with you. I would surmise that at bare minimum you should just carry Minuet, March, Madrigal, and Elegy for normal situations. Carry one "dummy" instrument for Ballad, and maybe Storm Fife if you do Salvage. Carry a Mary's Horn for single target Lullaby and a Nursemaid's for group Lullaby and range. However, I'd probably use Mary's Horn over Nursemaid's in situations like Einherjar. Keep a Requiem instrument on you in case it's ever needed.

Everything else, keep on your mule and save yourself space. ~_~ I've already done that and chucked the Threnody and Etude instruments to mule, especially since I don't use Etude at all nowadays. I haven't even bought a Mazurka instrument at all in the three years I've been Bard.

Of course, your accuracy and potency is checked against your Instrument skills (namely Wind and Singing) and your total amount of CHR. I'll leave that for another thread.


===============================================
Back on topic:

I think it's always been assumed that Battlefield Elegy is around 25% Slow or near it. Carnage Elegy has been assumed to be around 50%. And, if SE is EVER GENEROUS to give it to us Bards, Massacre Elegy is 100% Slow.

I doubt we'll ever get it, but a Bard can always dream, right? >_<

[Zoot]

slow2 lvl5 starts at 27% slow with 0 dMND, or slow2 lvl1 starts there? im asking do the higher tier merits raise the cap for slow but not the base value at 0 dMND? or does the 0 value go up as well

Slow II level 5 starts at 27% with dMND = 0, according to the test posted a few posts above.

dMND=0: Stays the same from 1-2, up from 2-3, stays the same from 3-4, up from 4-5. However this is inconclusive. The dMND=0 likely goes up but the increase is incremented within a second so the change does not show clearly. But yes, the merits themselves both increase the cap and the base potency at dMND=0.

Also, awesome test Kirschy :3 Also, I just had to post this.

Zoot
Message subject: Re: EinherjarFolder: Sent messages
Now has an exact formula for level II. I am anxious to see where this test goes once it's actually finished, because I think she'll find what rel found - as you reach the cap, it increases, but more more slowly because the amount of potency from each additional mnd seems to decrease as you reach the cap. I'd put money on her testing slow level 3 and it coming out to just abit over 36.1%.



Sent at: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:32 am

[Rheya]

slow2 lvl5 starts at 27% slow with 0 dMND, or slow2 lvl1 starts there? im asking do the higher tier merits raise the cap for slow but not the base value at 0 dMND? or does the 0 value go up as well

Slow II level 5 starts at 27% with dMND = 0, according to the test posted a few posts above.

This isn't to say that the worst you can do with Slow II level 5 is 27% though. If the caster's MND is under the target's, the slow effect will be less than 27%. So don't expect that any cast will result in a 27% slow minimum every time.

For a dMND of -60 on Slow II level 1, ~13% slow effect takes place. Similarly for dMND = -60 for Slow II level 3, ~15% slow effect takes place. I imagine negative dMND would scale the effect similarly all levels of Slow II.

[Shaard]

This isn't to say that the worst you can do with Slow II level 5 is 27% though. If the caster's MND is under the target's, the slow effect will be less than 27%. So don't expect that any cast will result in a 27% slow minimum every time.

I didn't mean to imply that, although I admit I did word it ambiguously

[Aux]

However, with these tests, it looks like going to Slow II @ 4 Merits is a good middle ground. I'd rather round out my RDM more so than anything else.

Edit: hopefully this can answer other RDM questions about their merit layouts, I recall and just tried doing a search for RDM merits here and it comes out with no good results.

To each their own on their RDM builds, one person's merit category should not serve as the guideline for all others, but I'm quite sure you already had that in mind.

Personally I think from your setup of having
-3 Paralyze II
-3 Phalanx II
-4 Slow II
is very well rounded. You have 3 of the spells to work with and it completely relies on the teams and setups that your LS has for what they do (IE Fafnir, etc).

But [going off tangent for a second here on the topic of RDM MERIT LAYOUT] the way from what I see about RDM merits, most spells have a certain flaw or downside to it one way or the other.

Examples:
-Bio III - Highly useful for soloing, otherwise "OK" for PT situations. Requires capped out and 211+ Dark Magic skill to make the best use of it solo. Source


-Dia III - Temporary defense down, last same duration as Bio3 merits + 30 seconds each merit. The potency of it seems rather redundant to build full merits into it though, unless you are a pure "Zerg Preparation" RDM. Little is discussed about the topic of Dia III in terms of potency.


-Phalanx II - Very nice spell, as each additional merit you have, the damage reduced goes higher.
[Full section devoted to Phalanx]
The maximum enhancing magic RDM can get that I know of is:
Base 256 (non merited)
Warlock's Tights/+1 - Skill +15
Duelist's Gloves/+1 - Skill +15
Enhancing Torque - Skill + 7
Merciful Cape - Skill +5
Glamor Jupon - Skill +3
Enhancing Earring (skipping out on spelling the name) - Skill +3
Total for: +48 skill

[304 Non-merited] [320 Merited]
So applying Phalanx II calculation:

Dmg reduced = (Enhancing Magic Skill/25) + 1 + (3 * merit level)

[-28.16 Non-merited] [-28.8 Merited] Rounds out to -28 DMG reduced either way, unless you can get 5 more skill to a max of 325 MERITED for -29 damage reduced.
Let's assume a Vanilla RDM with just 1 Merit in Phalanx II, and the only Enhancing item they have is Tights. This would make their damage reduction @ [-14.84 non-merited]

Now with the new frenzy of Accession SCH going around, they can simply do Aoe Phalanx for:
Base 210 (non merited)
Enhancing Torque - Skill + 7
Merciful Cape - Skill +5
Glamor Jupon - Skill +3
Enhancing Earring (skipping out on spelling the name) - Skill +3
Total for : +18 Skill

Phalanx I math:

Dmg reduce = (Enhancing Magic Skill/10) - 2

Say it's a vanilla SCH with no +Enhance gear
[-19 Non-merited vanilla]

+18 Enh. Skill SCH
[-20.8 Non-merited]

+18 Enh. Skill + 16 merits
[-22.4 Fully merited, fully geared]

Note that I may have left out any new gear added by the later updates. But basically what I'm trying to say is a vanilla SCH will have a stronger Phalanx if the RDM cannot get 3 merits or higher. And last thing I want to add, is Phalanx IMO (my own opinion) works the best with in conjunction Aegis PLD.

[End Phalanx hijack]


- Slow II - This discussion - Downside: After 3 merits, it may seem like a waste for some to go for 5 merits if they weren't striving to have the perfect RDM Slow.

- Paralyze II - much is still unknown about this topic, due to the test format is still under debate on how to do it. Source


- Blind II <> Kurayami: Ni = -30 accuracy Source (Fairly useless in my opinion vs the other spells available for merit)

And that pretty much sums up the full RDM Merit discussion, to each their own.

Edit2: Thanks to Isiolia for catching small error with Enhancing skill

[Isiolia]

The maximum enhancing magic RDM can get that I know of is:
Base 256 (non merited)
Warlock's Tights/+1 - Skill +15
Duelist's Gloves/+1 - Skill +15
Enhancing Torque - Skill + 7
Merciful Cape - Skill +5
Glamor Jupon - Skill +3
Enhancing Earring (skipping out on spelling the name) - Skill +3
Yinyang neckpiece - Skill +1
Total for: +49 skill

48. Yingyang neck a.) Can't be worn with Enhancing Torque and b.) Can't be equipped by RDM anyway.

Personally I have Phalanx II at level 5. One of the main places I use RDM in a group these days is Dynamis, and I'm often in the tank party if so. Makes sense for me.

Meriting up Phalanx II to 5 also makes it very nice for soloing and small group stuff. I don't have an Enhancing earring, but I do have the rest of the gear listed for 301 skill. The spells at that point are equal with -28 damage, but Phalanx II has a longer duration.
It also hits 27 damage with less skill from gear than Phalanx does. 'course, that's only true at level 5, which to me makes it somewhat appealing to take that far.

Right now I have things as 5x Phalanx II 3x Slow II and 2x Paralyze II. The testing with Slow II, to me, seems to say that 1, 3, or 5 are the best bets. Paralyze II has seemed flaky to me, but perhaps higher levels will be more consistent.

[Aux]

Aw man, stupid of me to have included the yinyang piece, I wasn't thinking right and somehow thought it was a separate piece from the neck.

That brings my calculations of Phalanx to a complete error, by the margin of 1 enhancing skill. I'll go back and re-edit my original post with the right numbers when I get the chance to.

[shaddix]

dia 3 is made of sex btw, assuming it is 15%

its an extra 33~? attack on merit mobs?

[Septimus]

Aw man, stupid of me to have included the yinyang piece, I wasn't thinking right and somehow thought it was a separate piece from the neck.

That brings my calculations of Phalanx to a complete error, by the margin of 1 enhancing skill. I'll go back and re-edit my original post with the right numbers when I get the chance to.

Oddly enough, I made that mistake as well a while back when I was computing Phalanx II when it first came out. (It didn't change the results though.)

[Grym]

After reading these test I really wish to have Slow II at Lv4 (Lv5 seems a waste from these results)

At the moment I have:

Lv3 Slow II
Lv2 Paralyze II
Lv3 Phalanx II
Lv2 Dia III

Especially for events like Nyzul, Phalanx and Dia are great, while Dia III at Lv2 only last 1 min, it is enough for me to only re-cast it a few times during a Nyzul boss fight. Took Paralyze to Lv2 as it is way too random and think Lv2 might boost it a little instead of Lv4 Slow and Lv1 Para, trying to balance them out a little.

Would like to see more result and opinions on my merit choice as they might be change to make better use of the spells

[Kirschy]

When I first posted this data it was incomplete, and I did not think I would have the oppertunity to add-on to it. Just to dispel a few rumors/inaccuracies that were my fault:

-Slow II cap and potency does change /w merits. (Fraps testing can not discern a difference on bees /w 1-2 merits, but 1, 3, and 5 do show differences. Recast testing shows the difference is probably 100/1024, about 1% change.)

-Regardless of the merits, Slow II needs 75 MND over the target in order to be capped. Extra merits do not change this as I initialli speculated.

-Slow II @ dMND = 0 appear to be:
Slow II /w 1 Merit: 240/1024 (~23.4%)
Slow II /w 2 Merits: 250/1024 (~24.4%)
Slow II /w 3 Merits: 260/1024 (~25.4%)
Slow II /w 4 Merits: 270/1024 (~26.35%)
Slow II /w 5 Merits: 280/1024 (~27.35%)

-Slow II @ dMND = 75 (Cap) appear to be:
Slow II /w 1 Merit: 360/1024 (~35.1%)
Slow II /w 2 Merits: 370/1024 (~36.1%)
Slow II /w 3 Merits: 380/1024 (~37.1%)
Slow II /w 4 Merits: 390/1024 (~38.09%)
Slow II /w 5 Merits: 400/1024 (~39.06%)

Slow II shows a total gain of 120/1024 (~11.7%) from dMND=0 to dMND=75
Slow I gains a total 150/1024 (~14.6%) from dMND=0 to dMND=75
As someone said earlier, this is why I said that Slow II takes more MND to raise potency compared to Slow I.

[Slycer]

Now with the new frenzy of Accession SCH going around, they can simply do Aoe Phalanx for:
Base 210 (non merited)
Enhancing Torque - Skill + 7
Merciful Cape - Skill +5
Glamor Jupon - Skill +3
Enhancing Earring (skipping out on spelling the name) - Skill +3
Total for : +18 Skill

Phalanx I math:

Dmg reduce = (Enhancing Magic Skill/10) - 2

Say it's a vanilla SCH with no +Enhance gear
[-19 Non-merited vanilla]

+18 Enh. Skill SCH
[-20.8 Non-merited]

+18 Enh. Skill + 16 merits
[-22.4 Fully merited, fully geared]

Note that I may have left out any new gear added by the later updates. But basically what I'm trying to say is a vanilla SCH will have a stronger Phalanx if the RDM cannot get 3 merits or higher. And last thing I want to add, is Phalanx IMO (my own opinion) works the best with in conjunction Aegis PLD.

You missed Light Arts, which is a pretty big skill increase of +46 (boosts innate pre-gear cap from 210 to 256). You can't do accession without Light Arts active, so the 210 number is pretty much irrelevant. Additionally, to go with that, you missed the Scholar's Pants (AF) which add 15 more skill when light arts is active, which would make the calculations...

vanilla SCH with no +Enhance gear
[-23.6 Non-merited vanilla]

+33 Enh. Skill SCH
[-26.9 Non-merited]

+33 Enh. Skill + 16 merits
[-28.5 Fully merited, fully geared]


It's a bit frustrating that a fully-geared, merited scholar can be exactly on par with RDM's fully merited Phalanx II, but unless they change the calculation it's true... I guess the saving grace of Phalanx II fully merited is that it lasts a bit longer, and is better when unmerited as most people don't have merits in enhancing.

--------

Back on topic, some really nice info there from Kirschy. Assuming all this is accurate (which it definitely sounds like it is), it's pretty funny that the mysterious "potency +1" referred to in the merit description was pretty much exactly a 1% increase in the potency (and cap) of the spell, lol. Since it really does seem to be almost precisely 1%, it would be interesting to see if Paralyze II testing yields the same results for potency and cap.

[Onel]

Thank you so very much Kirschy!

I figured from my earlier question in the thread that the description was giving us the simple answer of +1% potency, but your tests are great proof of that anyways. I'm still interested in another question that was brought up earlier: How is Slow II affected by Earth Shot really?

Someone had said that Earth Shot did nothing for Slow II because it couldn't go over the cap or something, but iirc the tests weren't inclusive of data where dMNDs weren't near the cap of 75. So, if let's say I have a lower dMND with Slow II capped at level 5, would it possibly bring up the spell's potency to the 39% cap with Earth Shot without the need for a very high dMND value (which I assume would be hard to achieve on most HNM)?

Wondering this because, if so, then I'd definitely go lvl 5 on the spell if I was sure I'd always have a COR around at tough bosses.

[Virtuous Saint]

Now with the new frenzy of Accession SCH going around, they can simply do Aoe Phalanx for:
Base 210 (non merited)
Enhancing Torque - Skill + 7
Merciful Cape - Skill +5
Glamor Jupon - Skill +3
Enhancing Earring (skipping out on spelling the name) - Skill +3
Total for : +18 Skill

Phalanx I math:

Dmg reduce = (Enhancing Magic Skill/10) - 2

Say it's a vanilla SCH with no +Enhance gear
[-19 Non-merited vanilla]

+18 Enh. Skill SCH
[-20.8 Non-merited]

+18 Enh. Skill + 16 merits
[-22.4 Fully merited, fully geared]

Note that I may have left out any new gear added by the later updates. But basically what I'm trying to say is a vanilla SCH will have a stronger Phalanx if the RDM cannot get 3 merits or higher. And last thing I want to add, is Phalanx IMO (my own opinion) works the best with in conjunction Aegis PLD.

You missed Light Arts, which is a pretty big skill increase of +46 (boosts innate pre-gear cap from 210 to 256). You can't do accession without Light Arts active, so the 210 number is pretty much irrelevant. Additionally, to go with that, you missed the Scholar's Pants (AF) which add 15 more skill when light arts is active, which would make the calculations...

vanilla SCH with no +Enhance gear
[-23.6 Non-merited vanilla]

+33 Enh. Skill SCH
[-26.9 Non-merited]

+33 Enh. Skill + 16 merits
[-28.5 Fully merited, fully geared]


It's a bit frustrating that a fully-geared, merited scholar can be exactly on par with RDM's fully merited Phalanx II, but unless they change the calculation it's true... I guess the saving grace of Phalanx II fully merited is that it lasts a bit longer, and is better when unmerited as most people don't have merits in enhancing.

--------

Back on topic, some really nice info there from Kirschy. Assuming all this is accurate (which it definitely sounds like it is), it's pretty funny that the mysterious "potency +1" referred to in the merit description was pretty much exactly a 1% increase in the potency (and cap) of the spell, lol. Since it really does seem to be almost precisely 1%, it would be interesting to see if Paralyze II testing yields the same results for potency and cap.

That is incorrect, I have posted this time and time again, but THAT enhancing formula for phalanx is 100% wrong passed a point(this may be 300+) I have tested on my other RDM which has capped enhancing possible. 1000needles to phalanx1:-28dmg phalanx2:-22dmg(3merits back then) THIS WAS WITH 320 SKILL MOST POSSIBLE. The enhancing calculator puts phalanx1:-30dmg WHEN @320SKILL thus it is wrong at some point, and the returns deminish.