Tiamat

[Drex]

A little background: I'm part of an LS that's been around for a while, killin' stuff like kings, sky, sea, limbus, and all that good stuff. We've killed Cerb and Khim but don't actively camped them, so we can handle the bigger fights. We've also killed jorm a couple times, so we're not entirely new to wyrm fights. Lately we've had a renewed interest in Tiamat, but have never fought it before.

I'm not too worried about the fight as a whole. I've seen it killed, and it looks pretty easy tbh. However, we're relatively low on BLMs and SMNs in our LS, and will need a lot of help from TA and SA WSes on the ground to kill it in a reasonable amount of time, so I had a few questions.

1) Do you limit the number of WSes during grounded phase to prevent TP moves, or just have people go in when they get 300 tp and do their thing? Same deal under 25% when she TPs more often?

2) Sub thf seems the way to go since all they're doing is WSing. About how many TA'd WSes onto the tanks should we slip in for each SA'd WS to keep hate where it belongs throughout the fight? Or should we just let melee SA WS every time?

3) How do you handle a melee pulling hate with an omgwtf WS? Especially if it's SA'd?

4) In the event of a flail, and assuming the worst (tank party wipe), how would you best go about holding it while tanks unweaken? We usually don't have more than a couple tanks on at a time, so throwing more plds/nins/rdms probably isn't an option. Sleep on the ground, and do what in the air?

[LakshmiToralyn]

This is probably the best information around:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/tag/tiamat+strategy%21

[Drex]

Appreciate the link, but most of that info is for manaburn set-ups. We don't have a ton of BLMs, so I was more hoping on info related to TAing and SAing on timmy, and dealing with a tank party wipe in case one of those SA WSes triggers a flail.

[Ashira]

The BLM style burn is probably the most efficient way to kill Tia; we've (I'm in said LS linked above) done it with under 10 using the strategy, and single tanking. No damage on the ground means no WS'ing on the ground, which = no Roar (hate reset).

Outside of that, just control the damage output on the ground, esp below 20%. Best way to deal/hold if tank PT wipes will probably be a good RDM/NIN tank teamed with a BRD; this is assuming you don't have a second tank style job available to stand around. RDM can hit hate caps quickly, and BRD will be needed for Elegy and MP management. RDM runs in, pops Chainspell, and Dispel spams to get their hate capped, essentially.

The link given to Kaeko's blog will help for your tanks as well, in spell rotations, etc, and for Enmity values etc. If they can maintain hate properly, SA WSes shouldn't be an issue; however if you get draw-ins and such of WHMs or BRDs, I don't suggest pairing a WS with SA, at all.

The info is there, you just have to use the info given and relate it to your shell rather than asking people to spell it out for you.

[LakshmiToralyn]

The biggest problem with Tiamat, obviously excluding if your bard cant land is elegy, is maintaining hate. That becomes impossible if you get roared.

In the 20+ tiamats ive tanked. 17 or so with us using SMN and Melee using WS to TA hate, ive ALWAYS been roared, and it doesnt matter RDM/NIN NIN/DRK PLD/NIN. EVen an invincibile will instantly turn it back on the PLD but that hate is going to decipate quick and its gonna start munching WHMs, BRDs, and any heavy hitter BLMs until you can get hate back.

If you dont touch it on the ground. It will not roar. As stated before, the strategy in the link is by far the most MANAGABLE that I have seen. I have tanked the last 3 using this strategy and its a joke, i dont think tiamat hit me once. Even if you only have 3-5 BLMs as long as they have ncie elemental set, you will be able to take it down and MAINTAIN control.

I think a well equipped NIN/DRK is ideal for Tiamat.

[Hex]

Being new to Tiamat i'd have to advise against a Nin/Drk unless you're 100% sure you're gonna be able to handle everything. Nin/Drk is impressive with hate but a slip up means you can't sleep Tiamat with Sleep. Pld/Nin works just fine as long as they're solid tanks. If you bring 2 Whms with you have them sub /blm for Ele seal Repose if shit hits the fan. Tiamat is easy to tank weakened in the air so you only need to be able to keep him asleep for a short bit on the ground if you need to regroup.

Also remember the longer the fight goes on, maintaining hate becomes harder as others will cap out. And don't be too worried bout being low on Blm or Smn. 2-3 of each is plenty. You don't really NEED blms but they do help vs the Elementals. But there are other ways to deal with any add around Tiamat.

Last, only way to really know what you need to improve on, gotta start somewhere so may as well start trying soon as you can.

[Brill Weave]

Don't forget to have someone assigned to pull links away(Corses at night.) Seems like a common sense thing to do, but I've seen a linkshell not do it and it was hysterical.

[Valyana]

Nin/Drk is impressive with hate but a slip up means you can't sleep Tiamat with Sleep.

Tell the NIN/DRK not to use Sleep in hate rotation?

[Therin]

SAM SA WSes are always safe to do if the SAMs go as soon as Tiamat lands, because her TP is wiped. The longer she stays on the ground, though, the more likely she is to TP. So, as soon as she lands, have three SAM/THFs waiting, and have all three drop their WS immediately.

If they pull hate, don't fret, because she won't have enough TP to flail yet. Just move around to the tanks and stand there until they get hate back.

[LakshmiToralyn]

tell your PLD/NIN good luck getting hate back when they get roared at 12% 1.5-2hrs into the fight. Like I said before they can Invincible, but that will only turn it short term by spiking VE hate, it will be right back on your WHM/BRD/BLM before you can solidify your CE hate again(hard enough to do on PLD). This is were youll loose people in the tank party and Tia could potentially go yellow. And if its anything like Lakshmi, Yellow = gone.

NIN/DRK tanking is not rocket science. I agree you do not have as many defense tools at your disposal in a time of need. But any NIN/DRK should have -40% phys dmg available at a macro's notice. as long as elegy is on its very managable. As stated before take Sleep out of the cycle, its just like taking Stun out at Khim, yes its a great tool but there are other options if your worried about having to sleep it. Aspir has the same amount of CE hate that sleep does.

Ive seen what I consider above average PLD/NIN struggle with hate in the last 25% of the fight in my linkshell and other linkshells. I feel all of them were using there abilities/tools/mp effectively, especially after a roar getting CE hate is where a PLD struggles and thats where overtime youll see hate slip away. A NIN/DRK is the ultimate hate tool with proper support.

If your tanks are not familar with http://kanican.livejournal.com/21727.html they should be.

[Ashira]

NIN/DRK tanking is not rocket science. I agree you do not have as many defense tools at your disposal in a time of need. But any NIN/DRK should have -40% phys dmg available at a macro's notice. as long as elegy is on its very managable. As stated before take Sleep out of the cycle, its just like taking Stun out at Khim, yes its a great tool but there are other options if your worried about having to sleep it. Aspir has the same amount of CE hate that sleep does.

Aspir sadly doesn't have the recast that sleep does.

We've never had the sleep issue using the BLM strat; we did recently on a Nidhogg when one tank died but it wasn't anything we couldn't survive through by any means, just more of a safeguard when we only had 8 people there and one tank. Can't really do BLM dual hate sharing on Tia the same way.

Anther option would be to spam Utsu more often than actually needed to keep hate up, if you have a good recast time. Should already be recasting when down to 2 shadows anyway because of double attacks. Not the same hate generation but it helps (esp Ni, as Ichi takes time from casting something else). And Aspir when you can at least.

Could also try NIN/RDM and use Dispel spam instead of Sleep/Stun. /shrug

it's just.. damage on the ground is always risky. If you're going to go that route, just keep that RDM/NIN handy for the roar and Chainspell Dispel/Utsu/Stoneskin (for surviving) to keep her hate steady and hold until the NIN can re-establish hate.

[Kaeko]

Try using 3 tanks.

There is very little fear of roar when you have 3 tanks because it would take 3 roars in 1 ground period to screw you over assuming all tanks are capable of solo tanking for short periods and can keep sufficient hate. If you get it to low HP and it spams roar twice, then just stop DDing. Any of the 3 main endgame tanks works on this.

Another thing about Tiamat is it has pretty much 0 wipe capability if you position yourselves in the right spot using height advantage (where Tiamat and tanks are at high ground, mages at low ground). You can avoid all those nasty 30' AoEs with height difference, and it really prevents Tiamat from being able to kill your entire alliance in 1 swoop. Even if you SA and flail it, the height advantage will prevent your backline from dying, and the tanks can block Spiked Flail, as it only costs 1-3 shadows (at least 1 tank should survive).

The key is positioning, knowing when to stop feeding it TP on the ground (not necessarily being so scared of it you refuse to TP period), and having multiple tanks I think for your type of melee heavy setup. The "TP-less" Tiamat is a nice way if you have BLMs, but it's not the only way to do it - it's just the strat that requires the least thought during the fight because Tiamat can't do anything.

As to your question about whether to use SA WS or TA WS... I would personally say SA WS, but only once per ground (aka once every 4 minutes). If you use this SA WS immediately after it lands, it can't possibly retaliate with flail off the bat - it would have to get a couple of hits on you first. The 3 main tanking types definitely do not need any sort of TA work.

[TeancumMemsochet]

I've only fought a few Tia's with my shell. But I know that generally we have a Tank PT, a BLM/SMN PT, and a SAM PT. We have 2 tanks, either 2 PLD/NINs, or lately PLD/NIN & NIN/DRK. B/c we have DD when it's on the ground we do have to deal with Roars. And unless we get back to back roars, we hardly have hate issues. What we do when hate becomes an issue(you'll know it is when your Mages/DD are getting drawn in) is have anyone drawn in log back to the POL screen to reset their hate. It takes a bit of work when your WHMs start getting drawn in, but that's easily overcome by having an extra sitting outside doing nothing until needed(low MP or hate resetting).

[Ashira]

I've only fought a few Tia's with my shell. But I know that generally we have a Tank PT, a BLM/SMN PT, and a SAM PT. We have 2 tanks, either 2 PLD/NINs, or lately PLD/NIN & NIN/DRK. B/c we have DD when it's on the ground we do have to deal with Roars. And unless we get back to back roars, we hardly have hate issues. What we do when hate becomes an issue(you'll know it is when your Mages/DD are getting drawn in) is have anyone drawn in log back to the POL screen to reset their hate. It takes a bit of work when your WHMs start getting drawn in, but that's easily overcome by having an extra sitting outside doing nothing until needed(low MP or hate resetting).

See the Enmity discussions/tables/posts on BG and in Kaeko's blog (linked above) about relogging/zoning to lose hate.

Basically, it doesn't exactly work except under specific conditions. Not a good thing to rely on.

[Naramaska]

Try using 3 tanks.

Depending on the tanks, this may or may not work. With a well geared NIN, you can still hit the haste cap using only one march, but it's extremely difficult to do without sacrificing too much gear you could be using for more hate or survival in case of "oh shit moments". I remember roughly offhand that with my regular tanking gear, I can survive a DA crit from Tiamat in sub-25% HP mode in my regular spell rotation gear...but swapping out a lot of the gear I use for +haste% would definitely not allow me to do that.

We almost always roll with a dual BRD/dual tank setup since it lets me and my cotank focus more on hate than utsusemi--i've gone entire landings using only Utsusemi: Ni because of it. Meanwhile, my (99.9% of the time) PLD cotank has plenty of MP to swap to +HP gear and cure themselves for hate to keep up, or if you use 2x PLD tanks, more than enough free hate.

[LakshmiToralyn]

bottom line if your TPing it on the ground. expect surprises, including tedbad wing, roars, and terrors which at bad times can drop even the most experienced tanks.

[Therin]

tell your PLD/NIN good luck getting hate back when they get roared at 12% 1.5-2hrs

If Tiamat survives this long ur doin' it wrong.

12-14 people can take it down in under an hour if they're good, so if you've got a fully ally it should never last over an hour.

[Naramaska]

tell your PLD/NIN good luck getting hate back when they get roared at 12% 1.5-2hrs

If Tiamat survives this long ur doin' it wrong.

12-14 people can take it down in under an hour if they're good, so if you've got a fully ally it should never last over an hour.

Last 2-3 Tiamat spawns on Lakshmi have been 4+ hour affairs. Gotta love it when shells server-hop, then bot the shit out of everything yet suck horrifically at killing it all. First time i've seen Tiamat spawn purple was after they showed up .

[LakshmiToralyn]

tell your PLD/NIN good luck getting hate back when they get roared at 12% 1.5-2hrs

If Tiamat survives this long ur doin' it wrong.

12-14 people can take it down in under an hour if they're good, so if you've got a fully ally it should never last over an hour.

I was referencing the new linkshell that server hopped to Lakshmi with Aegis paladins and wiped at 38% to tiamat with over 30. Apparently FFXI-APP doesnt have a Tiamat_Kill script, or the $2500 they paid just didnt include it.

The last 3 claims my linkshell has gotten we have been able to kill it in under an hour, with the best of 40 min~ using the aformentioned strategy

[Naramaska]

Aegis paladins

Can't use their Aegis anymore when they're 74 \:D/