Every ridill owner is a n00b... including me???

[Dantrag]

because 3 shadows isn't always enough <_<? Nins and Drgs that spawn pets mid fight can do that too you. That or any TP move that has multiple hits.... quite a few reasons.

[Kayos]

That's why you go Ni > Ni. Ichi in merit pts is a waste of time and damage. (Being a melee this is only my opinion as I am sure mages feel different). Not to mention the fact that if you are getting beat on, Ichi won't really save you.

[Cream Soda]

I usually just use counterstance. Works wonders with ichi.

[yrpaine]

casting ichi can be necessary and useful at times, though other times it is a waste, like when a mobs at 5-10% and you're just going to get interrupted.

and if you're getting beat on by more than 1 mob for any extended period of time, your pty needs new melee, and/or a new bard.

[RKenshin]

It's kind of counter-productive to your argument (and silly) to argue that /NIN is anything more than slightly less of a 'spongey sub' if you think that casting Ichi in merits is a waste of effort/time.

An average of 3 anticipates every 30 seconds and 3 shadows every 22-45 seconds (depending on haste) isn't really much of a difference.

And uh, unless you're a MNK using staff I don't see what Counterstance has to do with this argument.

[Kayos]

It's kind of counter-productive to your argument (and silly) to argue that /NIN is anything more than slightly less of a 'spongey sub' if you think that casting Ichi in merits is a waste of effort/time.

An average of 3 anticipates every 30 seconds and 3 shadows every 22-45 seconds (depending on haste) isn't really much of a difference.

And uh, unless you're a MNK using staff I don't see what Counterstance has to do with this argument.

You are agreeing with my previous points, not arguing against them.
I have always argued for /sam not for /nin.

Unless this post wasn't directed at me =)

[RKenshin]

It wasn't, I meant it in a general sense.

[Max™]

Why cast Ichi?

Personal example: I'm a Warrior, I NEVER evade, when I do evade, I double-take at the chatlog and assume Jupiter must have been aligned just right to pull the mobs weapon off target.

Let's say you get Skoffin > Nin, k, not uncommon at all with repops and the shuffling of mobs, especially if you aren't the only party there, and your puller can't stage the repops exactly how he likes them.

Dispelling Wind
Utsu: Ni
Melee 2 WS
Melee 3 WS
Skoffin dies
Mamool Nin
It's shadows go down if it had them
You WS, particularly landing a big silly WS (Crit TP ftw, even on Nins)
It strips shadows in a round easily, swing, double offhand swing
Noone has TP cause the first few melee rounds went into it's shadows
I've sealed hate on me for a good amount of time
Still have however long on Ni
I'm getting beat to death, and he's about to WS.

Try to get Ichi up, virtually any hit at any point in my lvl 37 Ninjutsu skill cast is going to interrupt, even with Elegy, those damn Nin's just spam swings, and I know he's due to WS any second now.

Sometimes mobs just repop at camp, so you can't assume everything will have Elegy, when you're tearing things up, and your puller is off grabbing the next mob or two for chain, you grab whatever is next to you.

Situations like that do happen, it isn't exactly a "well, the Moon was clearly in Virgo, and you didn't have a lucky rabbits foot" scenario.... and in that case, I would definitely be better off with /Sam, as even if I didn't have TE timer up, I could throw a meditate, WS with whichever melee gets TP first and kill the thing, and get TE up while eating swings.

You can't assume you'll always go Ni > Ni, and you can't assume that any situation where you're facetanking for longer than usual, that it is automatically due to lax Melee's.

[yrpaine]

so instead of assuming that ni would be up, you're assuming meditate would be up. awesome.

[Max™]

...

Dispelling Wind
Utsu: Ni
Melee 2 WS
Melee 3 WS
Skoffin dies
Mamool Nin
It's shadows go down if it had them
You WS, particularly landing a big silly WS (Crit TP ftw, even on Nins)
It strips shadows in a round easily, swing, double offhand swing
Noone has TP cause the first few melee rounds went into it's shadows
I've sealed hate on me for a good amount of time
Still have however long on Ni
I'm getting beat to death, and he's about to WS.

That whole scenario would take maybe 5 or 6 seconds, or less.

I didn't assume Med would be up, though given how it's just 60%, I tend not to spam it the instant it is up, which is just as likely to waste Tp with full haste if I don't have targets to spam both WSes into, and instead like to keep it around for feather tickles/zephyr mantles/flashed WSes/people needing hate pulled off them asap.

It's less useful for me to get 60% every 3 minutes exactly, than to get a swing or two closer to WS faster than normal when I really need it, but that isn't the point anyways.

The point is, there ARE situations where you will find yourself with a fresh Ni that just went down, and you still have a mob trying to kill you. In those situations, I, with my stupidly low evasion, feel more comfortable with nice uninterruptible Third Eye.

[Kayos]

It is futile for me to argue /sam vs. /nin anymore but I still don't understand how people think that casting Ichi in a merit pt is good lol... I would rather take multiple hits to the face then sit there trying to cast Ichi.

[Cream Soda]

I don't know how to count shadows

We know Max, we know.

[yrpaine]

I'll have to go /sam and merit with kayos sometimes just for the lolz factor of all this.

[Max™]

lol

I fully admit that I'm out of practice going /Nin by now, but I did sorta kinda do 35~55 cotanking in a static /Nin, and 55-70 /Nin in pickups, tanking or co-tanking.

I've done me a lot of Ichi casting, and watching shadows, timing casts between swings, etc.

Yeah, casting Ichi is going to be a waste, but Ni by itself really isn't any better than S+TE, so why is there anything but agreement that both are quite viable, and both can be used to properly control MP expenditure in quite a few situations, especially merits?

[Kayos]

I'll have to go /sam and merit with kayos sometimes just for the lolz factor of all this.

You made me come /nin last time =(

[yrpaine]

was it worth it? lol. we can both go /sam and compare it to that last pty

[Max™]

Actually, these days /Sam vs /Nin is more like the axe/rid or axe/axe vs gaxe debate, both are workable, have upsides and downsides, and it really comes down to what you prefer and feel more comfortable with.

[Kayos]

was it worth it? lol. we can both go /sam and compare it to that last pty

I think the whole point with these discussions is the definition of "worth"

Do I do more damage /sam - yes
Do I take less damage /sam - no*

* in some situations yes but overall no.

Make a 2x brd or brd + cor pt and I will gladly go /sam.

[Max™]

There goes that assumption again, /Nin does not prevent you from ever being hit in any situation you may encounter, it isn't godmode.

The question could be turned around just as easily.

Do I do more damage /Nin - not with a 2hed weapon
Do I always take less damage /Nin - not unless you're jesus

Are you Jesus?

If so, I'm sorry, but somehow I doubt it, and you're either exaggerating the effectiveness of your /Nin +1 vs everyone elses, you're holding back for safety, or you're generally more towards the bottom of the heap in your merit parties, and rarely get hate long enough to worry about it.

[aurik]

No, really, ninja sub mitigates more damage than third eye does. I think you're the only person here that is stupid enough to disagree with that.