Every ridill owner is a n00b... including me???

[Kkel]

Well, by that count, Dispelling Wind could flush your fresh Utsu too and leave you at the same mercy of timers. That move sucks no matter what you sub.

[Dantrag]

The only time it generally catches me off guard is when i forget to put seigan back up after dispelling wind <_<; Then i'm pretty much dead. But usually it's not an issue.

[aurik]

Well, by that count, Dispelling Wind could flush your fresh Utsu too and leave you at the same mercy of timers. That move sucks no matter what you sub.

Utsu is 2 abilities on much faster timers, virtually always one of the two is up. Often I'll be able to recast ni before even taking a single hit...

Getting fresh seigan wiped sucks balls, 1 minute delay before you can usefully tank again.

[Dantrag]

30 seconds... Unless your fresh seigan is also down then you throw up hasso and hope everyone can kill it before it kills you. And you keep talking like there's only 1 decent DD in the group.

Second, What if it uses raident breath on your last shadow and then wipes it and healers get cure locked by songs and can't get to silena in time???? And then you eat a fang rush!?!?!

I mean, since we're talking worst cases here, in that one i'd be able to keep 3rd eye up.

[aurik]

30 seconds... Unless your fresh seigan is also down then you throw up hasso and hope everyone can kill it before it kills you. And you keep talking like there's only 1 decent DD in the group.

Second, What if it uses raident breath on your last shadow and then wipes it and healers get cure locked by songs and can't get to silena in time???? And then you eat a fang rush!?!?!

I mean, since we're talking worst cases here, in that one i'd be able to keep 3rd eye up.

Seigan recast is 1 minute, so if it knocks off a fresh seigan enjoy your 1 TE anticipate followed by 50 seconds of uselessness.

PS.
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/a/ab/Echo_Drops.png

[Kkel]

There are lots of pro/cons going on here. Sub Utsu won't save you from a Mimer's Vorpal Blade or Rushing Draub, where 3rd Eye saves you completely. On the flip side, 3rd Eye doesn't do jack against Firespit where Utsu does.

I'd be willing to argue that if your party can't kill a Skoffin before it can get off 2 TP moves (like the glorious Dispelling Wind > Fang Rush) you probably shouldn't be fighting them to begin with. Bad shit is going to happen no matter what, but don't go deliberately throwing yourself in the line of fire if you know you can't handle it.

On that note, yes, i do feel much safer as WAR/NIN, but the sheer brutality if WAR/SAM is hilariously fun if all 3 in the party are at the top of their game.

[Dantrag]

You always make sure you have seigan up before there's even a chance of pulling a wyvern <_<;

Like i said, I've only died because of it once, and that was because i didn't put it up and the NEXT mob killed me, not even the wyvern <_<; seriously though, if you can't play /SAM that's fine. If /NIN is what you feel comfortable on by all means.

[aurik]

There are lots of pro/cons going on here. Sub Utsu won't save you from a Mimer's Vorpal Blade or Rushing Draub, where 3rd Eye saves you completely. On the flip side, 3rd Eye doesn't do jack against Firespit where Utsu does.

I'd be willing to argue that if your party can't kill a Skoffin before it can get off 2 TP moves (like the glorious Dispelling Wind > Fang Rush) you probably shouldn't be fighting them to begin with. Bad shit is going to happen no matter what, but don't go deliberately throwing yourself in the line of fire if you know you can't handle it.

Nobody said anything about 2 TP moves. I sense a straw man argument! Dispelling wind followed by up to a minute of useless tanks will make it very hard in the long term for a single rdm healer to keep up MP, regardless of whether the skoffin gets another TP move or not.

Regardless, sub utsu will reliably reduce damage from vorpal / drub a fair bit, whereas a seigan tank will either negate the attack entirely or take full damage. Hence my statement that utsusemi is reliable and seigan is not.

[Dantrag]

The chances of ALL THREE PEOPLE...

omg you know what... i'm going home... kkel have fun.

edit: you talk like it's a 100% every time it despelling wind it's 1min of shadowlessness from EVERYONE... My god, the chances of it even being true for 1 person is slim to none considering most of us would hit Seigan again after a dispelling wind just to be safe...

[aurik]

You always make sure you have seigan up before there's even a chance of pulling a wyvern <_<;

Like i said, I've only died because of it once, and that was because i didn't put it up and the NEXT mob killed me, not even the wyvern <_<; seriously though, if you can't play /SAM that's fine. If /NIN is what you feel comfortable on by all means.

I think it's you that can't play /sam if you've only ever died once due to seigan being wiped. It must be hard to die if you don't have hate.

Regardless of how many times you've died, dispelling wind taking out your seigan still makes you useless as a tank until you get it back up, which can be up to a minute, whereas utsusemi's dual timers means that it's extremely rare for wind to leave you defenseless.

Which is exactly my point, utsusemi is reliable, seigan is not.

[Cream Soda]

Everyone knows you sub pup and use the automaton as a shield.

[aurik]

The chances of ALL THREE PEOPLE...

omg you know what... i'm going home... kkel have fun.

edit: you talk like it's a 100% every time it despelling wind it's 1min of shadowlessness from EVERYONE... My god, the chances of it even being true for 1 person is slim to none considering most of us would hit Seigan again after a dispelling wind just to be safe...

And if your seigan isn't ready, you're useless as a tank until it is ready again, which can be as bad as a 1 minute delay before you're an effective tank again. Fight through skoffins often & fast and it will happen, frequently.

Which is exactly what I've said for an entire page now

So congratulations on failing to refute anything I've said so far.

[Kkel]

There are lots of pro/cons going on here. Sub Utsu won't save you from a Mimer's Vorpal Blade or Rushing Draub, where 3rd Eye saves you completely. On the flip side, 3rd Eye doesn't do jack against Firespit where Utsu does.

I'd be willing to argue that if your party can't kill a Skoffin before it can get off 2 TP moves (like the glorious Dispelling Wind > Fang Rush) you probably shouldn't be fighting them to begin with. Bad shit is going to happen no matter what, but don't go deliberately throwing yourself in the line of fire if you know you can't handle it.

Nobody said anything about 2 TP moves. I sense a straw man argument! Dispelling wind followed by up to a minute of useless tanks will make it very hard in the long term for a single rdm healer to keep up MP, regardless of whether the skoffin gets another TP move or not.

Regardless, sub utsu will reliably reduce damage from vorpal / drub a fair bit, whereas a seigan tank will either negate the attack entirely or take full damage. Hence my statement that utsusemi is reliable and seigan is not.

Well, i'd say the only real threat of a Skoffin using Dispelling Wind is that it would follow up with Fang Rush and take someone out completely. The "one minute" thing is questionable because any mob at the Mamool Ja camp shouldn't be alive that long anyway (Edit: Occasional asshole Mamool NIN goes here as an exception). In the time it takes a Skoffin to get enough TP for Dispelling Wind it should already be on deaths door.

Like i said though, bad things will happen, it's an inevitability. Someone whiffs a weaponskill, you get bad repops, etc etc. That's where a good party knows how to handle the situation and react. Bad shit can kill you no matter what sub job your on.

I'm not disagreeing that /NIN is much more reliable when it comes to safety. But hell, we had a WAR/SAM x3, COR, COR, WHM party out there and had the whole place cleaned out. Our WHM was amazing, and i'm sure he was mad at us the entire time, but we were melting those mobs before any of us were in any real danger of death.

I fear Mamool NIN's poison (i usually wear a Snakeeye) more than any Skoffin.

[aurik]

There are lots of pro/cons going on here. Sub Utsu won't save you from a Mimer's Vorpal Blade or Rushing Draub, where 3rd Eye saves you completely. On the flip side, 3rd Eye doesn't do jack against Firespit where Utsu does.

I'd be willing to argue that if your party can't kill a Skoffin before it can get off 2 TP moves (like the glorious Dispelling Wind > Fang Rush) you probably shouldn't be fighting them to begin with. Bad shit is going to happen no matter what, but don't go deliberately throwing yourself in the line of fire if you know you can't handle it.

Nobody said anything about 2 TP moves. I sense a straw man argument! Dispelling wind followed by up to a minute of useless tanks will make it very hard in the long term for a single rdm healer to keep up MP, regardless of whether the skoffin gets another TP move or not.

Regardless, sub utsu will reliably reduce damage from vorpal / drub a fair bit, whereas a seigan tank will either negate the attack entirely or take full damage. Hence my statement that utsusemi is reliable and seigan is not.

Well, i'd say the only real threat of a Skoffin using Dispelling Wind is that it would follow up with Fang Rush and take someone out completely. The "one minute" thing is questionable because any mob at the Mamool Ja camp shouldn't be alive that long anyway. In the time it takes a Skoffin to get enough TP for Dispelling Wind it should already be on deaths door.

No, the real threat of a skoffin using dispelling wind is that it then bangs on someone who has no defense for a few combat rounds. Each hit that it connects with costs the rdm mp--and this is in addition to the mp the rdm needs to spend reapplying buffs. If the rdm runs out of mp before convert is ready, say goodbye to your xp rate as hastes start falling and people play defensive in order to survive.

I'm not disagreeing that /NIN is much more reliable when it comes to safety.

Which means you're not disagreeing with me at all.

[Kkel]

No, the real threat of a skoffin using dispelling wind is that it then bangs on someone who has no defense for a few combat rounds. Each hit that it connects with costs the rdm mp--and this is in addition to the mp the rdm needs to spend reapplying buffs. If the rdm runs out of mp before convert is ready, say goodbye to your xp rate as hastes start falling and people play defensive in order to survive.

Well, WAR is hardly a "no defense" job. It's not like we can't take a few hits, besides Retaliation just means that we'll be closer to another Raging Rush after being hit. And as i also mentioned, we had a WHM main healing with 2 CORs, so it's not like we had tons of MP to spare. We still cleared that camp and never lost chain.

I'm not disagreeing that /NIN is much more reliable when it comes to safety.

Which means you're not disagreeing with me at all.

Nope, i'm not. WAR/NIN is definitely the safer job when it comes defense because of the reliability of Utsusemi. That being said though, as someone who's played WAR for years and typically plays very conservatively, i have come to greatly enjoy the balls-to-the-wall playstyle of WAR/SAM in XP so long as i trust that the other 2 SAM/WARs are playing at the peak of their game. In my case that's true, so it works out well.

[FailureMidgard]

There are lots of pro/cons going on here. Sub Utsu won't save you from a Mimer's Vorpal Blade or Rushing Draub, where 3rd Eye saves you completely. On the flip side, 3rd Eye doesn't do jack against Firespit where Utsu does.

I'd be willing to argue that if your party can't kill a Skoffin before it can get off 2 TP moves (like the glorious Dispelling Wind > Fang Rush) you probably shouldn't be fighting them to begin with. Bad shit is going to happen no matter what, but don't go deliberately throwing yourself in the line of fire if you know you can't handle it.

Nobody said anything about 2 TP moves. I sense a straw man argument! Dispelling wind followed by up to a minute of useless tanks will make it very hard in the long term for a single rdm healer to keep up MP, regardless of whether the skoffin gets another TP move or not.

Regardless, sub utsu will reliably reduce damage from vorpal / drub a fair bit, whereas a seigan tank will either negate the attack entirely or take full damage. Hence my statement that utsusemi is reliable and seigan is not.

Well, i'd say the only real threat of a Skoffin using Dispelling Wind is that it would follow up with Fang Rush and take someone out completely. The "one minute" thing is questionable because any mob at the Mamool Ja camp shouldn't be alive that long anyway. In the time it takes a Skoffin to get enough TP for Dispelling Wind it should already be on deaths door.

No, the real threat of a skoffin using dispelling wind is that it then bangs on someone who has no defense for a few combat rounds. Each hit that it connects with costs the rdm mp--and this is in addition to the mp the rdm needs to spend reapplying buffs. If the rdm runs out of mp before convert is ready, say goodbye to your xp rate as hastes start falling and people play defensive in order to survive.

I'm not disagreeing that /NIN is much more reliable when it comes to safety.

Which means you're not disagreeing with me at all.

While I 100% agree with Utsu being better, running out of mp? Does the red mage not know that sitting restores his mp? He should be able to go indefinitely and use convert -only- in the situation you listed. I'm sure most are too lazy to learn mp management, however.

[Dantrag]

The only reason I'd let something bounce between the other two is because of that situation. If I have no options left then yes, i won't pull hate on purpose... but isn't that the point of being a good DD anyways? The only reason i'm arguing with you at all is because you're talking like that is what WILL happen no matter what. Yes I agree with both of you that /nin is safer. I never argued that. I'm just arguing that /sam isn't as UNSAFE as you're saying.

[aurik]

The only reason I'd let something bounce between the other two is because of that situation. If I have no options left then yes, i won't pull hate on purpose... but isn't that the point of being a good DD anyways? The only reason i'm arguing with you at all is because you're talking like that is what WILL happen no matter what. Yes I agree with both of you that /nin is safer. I never argued that. I'm just arguing that /sam isn't as UNSAFE as you're saying.

How unsafe have I been saying it is?

[spoiler:3l6i639s]Yet another straw man. I haven&#39;t said how unsafe it is, just that /nin is safer and that&#39;s why I prefer it.[/spoiler:3l6i639s]

[Kkel]

I dunno, "another" might be questionable since the original was set aflame and cast free due to differing perceptions of why a Skoffin might be dangerous.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Corsairs should only ever use drk+cor roll in xp. Leaving the bard to sing double march. This is a very favorable setup for 2h weapon users.

2 bards should be singing 2x march, min, madrigal unless they only have very pimp 2h users in their party, then min x2 / mar x2 can be better, as the accuracy goes to waste.

I still don't like /sam over /nin, regardless of weapon used.

I'll never understand this, when I know for a fact that you have some of the most competent mages on Asura at your disposal. I have a short attention span when it comes to meriting, and I still have absolutely no problems maintaining a party of all /SAM.

Because utsusemi is reliable, and 3E is not.

Well, there's no denying this, especially when you're dealing with Skoffin on a regular basis(which any good party at MJSP is). All I'm saying is that I, personally, never have any trouble dealing with an Utsu-less party, while I know that you have plenty of Morrigan/ABody/Chap healers at your disposal(and WHMs who actually know about /SCH ).

All the while, I'm not even paying attention half of the time whilst meriting on RDM.