Every ridill owner is a n00b... including me???

[Kaslo]

There really isn't any point in arguing with people on the internet however I will bite.

The reason why your argument has no validity is that shadows can go Ni > Multi-hit on you (no shadows) > hit > hit > hit > hit just as easily as Third eye can go TE > Multi-hit on you (no TE) > hit > hit > hit > hit. The point that you can't grasp is that when Third Eye is UP multi-hit GET DODGED, when Ni is UP you still take damage from Multi-hit.

I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp? In the merit parties I am in on average a mob uses ONE ws on you. IF you have Third Eye up (and you should) and they use a Multi-hit ws on you then it is DODGED. Do you not understand this?

Also I never said it was better. In my initial post I clearly stated that shadows (like Aurik said) are more reliable. I just said that based on the fact that it IS better at mitigating multi-hit damage, I prefer it more. Nevertheless, you are just proving to me more and more that you need better melee in your merit parties.

I'm not taking a side, I'm just saying TE absorbing one WS a fight while still having a chance only to block one normal hit doesn't make it the end all be all that your post made it to be.

[Kayos]

Then clearly you didn't read my initial post.

[Kaslo]

Then clearly you didn't read my initial post.

Or I did and your too boastfull to think you may not be 100% right.

[Kayos]

Then by all means smart guy tell me where I said or inferred that Seigan is:

the end all be all

[Kaslo]

Then by all means smart guy tell me where I said or inferred that Seigan is:

the end all be all

those exact words, never, but it was an underlying tone of your post. Or atleast that's the way it came off.

[Kayos]

So based upon your interpretation of my "internet tone" you are inferring something I never said. I hope you were never on the debate team.

[RKenshin]

This thread has long strayed off the original topic, but a lot of the additional information and experiences that other people have posted has been helpful, good quality information. All of which still ties into the OP's topic.

In hope that this could still continue further I'd rather not have to lock this thread or see it locked. So let's all try to keep the bickering/making things personal/unconstructive criticism to a minimum, ok?

[Kayos]

Ok how about this hypothesis:

Better and faster merit parties get more use out of Seigan and Third Eye vs. Utsu. than slower parties.
Discuss.

(Note, I didn't say they were better and faster because of Third Eye.)

[aurik]

Disagree. Depends heavily on where you are meriting--bird camp is particularly favorable to Seigan/TE, whereas more difficult enemies such as Wyverns, Yagudo, Demons, etc favor Utsusemi due to TE limitations.

[Dantrag]

Stick with what you feel is better? I like Meditate and having 6 hit. Our merit parties never have an issue w/ 3rd eye. So we'll most likely keep going /sam. /shrug. With proper bouncing of the mob it becomes a non-issue. Even on the harder mobs.

[Kayos]

No disagreement there. I guess the point I am getting at is slower parties benefit more from Utsu than faster parties because of the inherent reliability of Utsu. vs. TE. Where as faster parties kill faster so the mob doesn't have as much time to hit the players. Therefore, the increased reliability of Utsu. isn't needed as much.

Edit: obviously the camp/danger of mobs TP moves/mobs HP all play a factor.

I do agree that certain camps are more favorable to TE vs. Utsu

[RKenshin]

I guess the point I am getting at is slower parties benefit more from Utsu than faster parties because of the inherent reliability of Utsu. vs. TE. Where as faster parties kill faster so the mob doesn't have as much time to hit the players. Therefore, the increased reliability of Utsu. isn't needed as much.

Agree, IMO it's basically true for most situations.

In slower PTs one DD is more likely to end up tanking for extended periods. Longer fights is where Seigan tanking will get rough, because having a mob's undivided attention for a long fight with just Seigan will leave you bound to almost always take some damage. Where as with Utsesumi you're likely to take much less damage (if any).

In a faster PT with good DDs, hate is more likely to be balanced. In times where you'll have TP/use Provoke/whatever (which is normally the only time you'll have rather solid hate), third eye is usually up if not close to being up as long as things are timed right. And the mob will die before third eye gets into the part of the duration where it most often wears off.

And well, the shorter fights are and the more balanced hate is, the more 'reliable' seigan works as a damage reduction.

I do agree that certain camps are more favorable to TE vs. Utsu

Difficulty of the enemy doesn't really matter IMO as long as it's dieing fast. Or well, at least it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as the killspeed.

If a mob is only alive for 10-20 seconds it doesn't really matter whether you are using Seigan or Utsesumi. And in Mamool in particular you're normally not fighting just hard mobs... Anything outside of skoffins are comparably rather weak as far as melee attacks go. I'd probably put most mamool on a similiar level as colibri, and puks are of course much weaker.

[aurik]

It's not necessarily how hard the enemy hits, but rather the annoying TP moves it uses. For example, I've found seigen pretty terrible against mobs with moves like sweep, battle dance, dread shriek, dispelling wind...not sure but I think condemnation probably cancels it as well. If not, the occasional uninterrupted nuke from ahriman is a big liability in Uleg.

On a side note, what happens if you get countered with TE up? Does it cancel? Does it silently anticipate, like parry?

[Kirschy]

In regards to the Utsusemi vs Seigan/TE debate, I am suprised no one is posting defensive parses. While I realize there are many factors, posting a full parties defensive stats over a 2hr+ session at mamools could lend a lot to the discussion.

[Kayos]

By defensive parses you mean simply their total damage taken?

[RKenshin]

I posted one not too long ago, that showed something like a combined rate of around 70-80% (? not sure) rate of avoiding damage of some form on SAM. Whether through an anticipation, counter, evade, or parry.

Which was a lot better than I thought it'd be. I don't usually parse that stuff though.

I'll try to find the post.

It's not necessarily how hard the enemy hits, but rather the annoying TP moves it uses. For example, I've found seigen pretty terrible against mobs with moves like sweep, battle dance, dread shriek, dispelling wind...not sure but I think condemnation probably cancels it as well. If not, the occasional uninterrupted nuke from ahriman is a big liability in Uleg.

On a side note, what happens if you get countered with TE up? Does it cancel? Does it silently anticipate, like parry?

I tend to find it rather annoying for both, but I suppose how much difficulty it gives you varies with each person on what annoys you.

Condemnation is the most annoying thing for me with Seigan though. It's like the only one-hit move that goes through and clears third eye for high damage, I hate it.

I don't recall what happens if you get countered with TE up, although I don't remember it ever happening. So it either goes through it (and you take damage anyway), or it works silently like parry. Either way I'm pretty sure it doesn't clear it of, as I think I would've been more likely to notice that.

But I'm still not certain. Someone that ballistas often should know for sure?


__________________________________________________ __

EDIT:
Found the post:

Topic from a few pages ago, but nevertheless!

Unless the stick rate changes a lot between 68 and 75, or the "enhances third eye" relic gear makes a difference, you must have a magical third eye. Mine wears off after 2-3 hits most of the time.

Do you have any parses showing your overall avoid rate? I remember ruke posting one parse where his overall avoid rate was a paltry 30%, which seems more inline with my experience. (http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9594/66341738hj4.jpg)

I'm pretty sure that's the Amano vs Cata vs newly 75 MNK/WAR parse? In which case that'd actually be a bad reference for third eye anticipation rates, I used hasso for a large portion of that PT.

I probably have a better parse somewhere, but /lazy. I'm rather certain I avoid physical hits in some form over 50% of the time when I'm actually seigan tanking though... Through a total of evasion/parry/counter/shadow proc/anticipate.

I have a slightly better sample now, although not quite the best. I let Seigan wear off too many times.

But I was the tank for this PT, voking in full enmity (+40) every time it was ready even though it wasn't really necessary (did almost 50% of total damage, so needless to say I had a lot of hate). Parse looked like this:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7548/p3bv5.jpg

Only problem is that my counter rate wasn't parsed, I had wrong field checked. But, I had about a 55% absorb-rate, 5% evade, and 5% parry. If I assume that I counter about 1/4th of the time this puts me at about an 11% counter-rate, which seems about right.

This totals at avoiding damage 76% of the time.

I'd imagine with full Usukane and no Seigan mistakes I could push higher, and Usu would add over 50 evasion to what I TP'd in that PT. MNK and SAM have the same base eva, what kind of eva percents do you get in your PTs on MNK Aurik?

Playing with numbers, if 50 eva added just 5%, that'd put me at 81% avoidance. And close to 90% if I count shadow mantle, which I can usually macro on before I take damage (some PTs I even keep it on full-time). That would be pretty awesome :O... Although realistically it'd probably even out to 80-85%. Which is still nice at around ~110 avg damage taken a hit.

[Kirschy]

By defensive parses you mean simply their total damage taken?

Like Ruke said, between Evasion, Counter, Parry, Anticipate/Blink... How many hits did you end up avoiding compared to taken? I feel like a lot can be gained from people posting their defensive parses as a WAR/SAM vs WAR/NIN.

[Dantrag]

I think it also comes to the fact for things like DRG, DRK, SAM. They're not going to sub /nin 9/10 times. Should really be looked at the same for 2H WAR. I personally feel the pros completely out weigh the cons.

Also iirc aoe spells don't wipe 3rd eye. So things like Diaga or unstunned -ga spells won't really change at all.

[aurik]

With any luck I'll have some time to merit with my usu-samarai soon, but recently I've been getting totally ruked by RL. I'll make sure I compile defensive parses when I do (any suggestions on parsers / settings?)

[Max™]

-Aga's don't strip TE.
Counter's eat an Eye as I recall.
I've done parties at lolibri where I rode hasso and just saved TE for when I saw "readies Pecking Flurry." and most of the party managed to avoid anything but the random melee hits/food/tp stealing.

At mamools I spend a lot more time on Seigan, trying to make sure the recast isn't down for Skoffins cause they love to wipe it away.

Multi-hits don't take TE down, they take 1 eye, and I've eaten a multi-hit and 3 or 4 swings directly after it just about as often as I've eaten a multi-hit and TE went down with it.

If you can count on people to get hate off of you so you can get Utsu back up, it's all gravy yo.

If you're riding 225 Eva skill -10~15~20 Evasion, and you wind up where one person kills last mob with WS, other person gets feather tickled as you drop a big full crits multi-double WS, well, let me tell you it SUCKS trying to get Ichi up to the point where I'd rather not take the time away from swinging til the next mob and just soak the damage.

Nevermind those awesome moments like hitting 74 the first time and thinking "wow, with Ichi and Ni I bet I could keep shadows up forever!"

Then you walk outside and pick a fight with a Lesser Colibri, double, swing, you were already recasting so you get Ichi up, hit, double, Ni, Flurry, and now you're at 30 secs + on either timer getting your ass kicked by a lvl 64 dildobird.

Personally, I prefer knowing that as long as I was paying attention and put Seigan up/had it up, I'm going to get TE up within 5-10 seconds in a nice instant KSHING, as opposed to trying to time an ichi cast between mob swings with War eva.


Mind, this was before I had a full haste build, so your results may vary, but I've never found myself thinking "man, I wish I'd subbed Nin."