Trial for 19 hour rape and torture case begins

[Tyche]

Saves money if we pave a fast lane to the death penalty, as should be the case in cases with DNA evidence and eye witnesses. What purpose is served by keeping him alive for the next umpteen years?

[BerenTebogo]

Dying painlessly sucks a lot less than living out the rest of your life in a fucking hell hole, unless you're what? Devoutly religious and believe that any quality of life no matter what is sacred? Which clearly he doesn't.

The death penalty in MOST cases is completely and totally unnecessary and retarded, and serves no purpose other than appeasing the public, when in reality the punishment of making somebody live the next 60 years of their life in the same cell is far, far, far, far worse, I've never once in my life understood how the death penalty is meant to instill more fear into the criminal, seems like an easy way out of 50-60 year hell to me.

[ertyu]

I see your points and no, I don't think that the guy should just be offed with no questions asked. The judicial system needs to take its course because everyone is entitled to a fair trial. But I mean in the end the guy really needs to die... look at what he did? That's completely barbaric and gross beyond comprehension.

The question we should be asking is what purpose does killing him have?

Which is where I am torn. Death isn't even bad enough. He ruined that woman's life forever. She's going to be mentally and physically scarred and had countless of future opportunities stripped from here in the course of one day. I'm not calling for the guy to be tortured and raped the same way she was, that's just an idiotic way of thinking. But you can't argue that the guy deserves some form of punishment that's pretty bad.

I understand that rapists and shit get treated the worst in prison, it's just frustrating.

[Turambar]

The question we should be asking is what purpose does killing him have?

Getting the damn hippies to protest somewhere that doesn't interrupt my walk to work is more than enough reason for me.

[Tyche]

Not every prison system is the same. He could spend the rest of his life being ass raped with a broom stick or he could spend the rest of his life with 3 meals a day with a roof over his head. We don't really know enough to draw that kind of conclusion.

[Kuya]

Saves money if we pave a fast lane to the death penalty, as should be the case in cases with DNA evidence and eye witnesses. What purpose is served by keeping him alive for the next umpteen years?

Keeping the rest of us safe from him, something that an executation can also do, but it is more costly, and if you try to speed it up, you risk innocent people dying because they did not have sufficient time to prove their innocense. The death penalty is also not much of a deterrent, and it also seems to think that punishing killing with killing somehow makes sense in the greater scheme of things. If you try to say that if we don't have death penalties prisons will become flooded and tax payers will have to carry the burden, then you would be wrong as the majority of people in jail are not eligible for executions (most are there because of things such as theft and drugs), so if your point is that keeping them in jail costs money, then you're somehow going to have to justify using executions for drugs dealers/theives because it costs you more money to keep them alive in jail that using some hypothetical method of execution. More money is spent on executions and keeping non violent offenders in jail, that sounds like more of a problem than a lack of death sentences.

[BerenTebogo]

Not every prison system is the same. He could spend the rest of his life being ass raped with a broom stick or he could spend the rest of his life with 3 meals a day with a roof over his head. We don't really know enough to draw that kind of conclusion.

I can say with a large amount of certainty that he is going to be sentenced to a maximum security facility, and those have fairly universal standards in terms of the type of in-mates, guards, and living facilities.

Yes there is a HUGE difference between minimum security and maximum security, but within it's own class the diversification isn't much. He's not going to be a happy camper, I can sleep at night knowing that.

[Tyche]

Multiple offenses, been on trial for murder in the past, eye witnesses, DNA evidence....you don't have to expedite it in all cases, but this is one that would be welcomed. Obviously I'm not going to argue for killing drug dealers, that's fucking retarded and drawing that parallel would be irrational. Cases like this, save some grief and money.

[Kuya]

Multiple offenses, been on trial for murder in the past, eye witnesses, DNA evidence....you don't have to expedite it in all cases, but this is one that would be welcomed. Obviously I'm not going to argue for killing drug dealers, that's fucking retarded and drawing that parallel would be irrational. Cases like this, save some grief and money.

Except that killing him would cost more money, and if you made it faster in this specific situation, then it would be a rather meaningless as there are other things which absorb far more money than his continued existence in a shitty jail. It doesn't seem like efficiency or principle is your prerogative, it mostly just seems like grief, and i don't like to make decisions based on grief.

[Tyche]

Multiple offenses, been on trial for murder in the past, eye witnesses, DNA evidence....you don't have to expedite it in all cases, but this is one that would be welcomed. Obviously I'm not going to argue for killing drug dealers, that's fucking retarded and drawing that parallel would be irrational. Cases like this, save some grief and money.

Except that killing him would cost more money, and if you made it faster in this specific situation, then it would be a rather meaningless as there are other things which absorb far more money than his continued existence in a shitty jail. It doesn't seem like efficiency or principle is your prerogative, it mostly just seems like grief, and i don't like to make decisions based on grief.

Wut @ bolded part. It's rather meaningless to save money in one place because we spend money in other places? Seriously? Even you have to admit that was a rather silly retort.

As far as my prerogative, most definitely principle. Always favored the death penalty, and wish we could make it more efficient. Expedite it in multiple-offense cases with overwhelming amounts of evidence.

[BerenTebogo]

Multiple offenses, been on trial for murder in the past, eye witnesses, DNA evidence....you don't have to expedite it in all cases, but this is one that would be welcomed. Obviously I'm not going to argue for killing drug dealers, that's fucking retarded and drawing that parallel would be irrational. Cases like this, save some grief and money.

Except that killing him would cost more money, and if you made it faster in this specific situation, then it would be a rather meaningless as there are other things which absorb far more money than his continued existence in a shitty jail. It doesn't seem like efficiency or principle is your prerogative, it mostly just seems like grief, and i don't like to make decisions based on grief.

Wut @ bolded part. It's rather meaningless to save money in one place because we spend money in other places? Seriously? Even you have to admit that was a rather silly retort.

As far as my prerogative, most definitely principle. Always favored the death penalty, and wish we could make it more efficient. Expedite it in multiple-offense cases with overwhelming amounts of evidence.

Out of curiosity why if you're interested in seeing justice are you for the death penalty? In almost all cases involving murder or torture, where you may think taking someones life is the ultimate punishment, the criminal will NOT share your outlook, and a long existence in a shitty prison is the only true punishment available for them.

Pressing your beliefs or values on criminals as punishment isn't exactly punishment for them. I don't see how supporting the death penalty actually supports justice in this scenario.

[Kuya]

And what would those principles be? I find it hard to believe that your stance is anything besides moral outrage.

[Rhinox]

Not every prison system is the same. He could spend the rest of his life being ass raped with a broom stick or he could spend the rest of his life with 3 meals a day with a roof over his head. We don't really know enough to draw that kind of conclusion.

I can say with a large amount of certainty that he is going to be sentenced to a maximum security facility, and those have fairly universal standards in terms of the type of in-mates, guards, and living facilities.

Yes there is a HUGE difference between minimum security and maximum security, but within it's own class the diversification isn't much. He's not going to be a happy camper, I can sleep at night knowing that.

^this


and just to expand on this heres is life in a supermax prison.

"Supermax" is short for "super-maximum security." It is a place designed to house violent prisoners or prisoners who might threaten the security of the guards or other prisoners. Some prisons that are not designed as supermax prisons have "control units" in which conditions are similar. The theory is that solitary confinement and sensory deprivation will bring about "behavior modification."

In general. Supermax prisoners are locked into small cells for approximately 23 hours a day. They have almost no contact with other human beings.

There are no group activities: no work, no educational opportunities, no eating together, no sports, no getting together with other people for religious services, and no attempts at rehabilitation.

There are no contact visits: prisoners sit behind a plexiglass window. Phone calls and visitation privileges are strictly limited. Books and magazines may be denied and pens restricted. TV and radios may be prohibited or, if allowed, are controlled by guards.

Prisoners have little or no personal privacy. Guards monitor the inmates' movements by video cameras. Communication between prisoners and control booth officers is mostly through speakers and microphones. An officer at a control center may be able to monitor cells and corridors and control all doors electronically. Typically, the cells have no windows. Lights are controlled by guards who may leave them on night and day. For exercise there is usually only a room with high concrete walls and a chin-up bar. Showers may be limited to three per week for not more than ten minutes.

"Prisoners are confined to a concrete world in which they never see a blade of grass, earth, trees or any part of the natural world." There are complaints that inmates who misbehave while in supermax or control units are put into "strip cells" (sometimes at temperatures near 50 degrees with only boxer shorts to wear and no bedding), or are chained spread-eagle and naked to concrete beds. Other complaints include denial of medical care, interference with mail, arbitrary beatings, "hog-tying" (intertwining handcuffs and ankle-cuffs), "cock fights" (double celling inmates who are likely to attack each other), and injury to inmates during "cell extractions." John Perotti, writing after having spent 10" out of 12 years in control units, says: "Every aspect of life in the Control Unit is meant to debase and degrade a prisoner's very soul the purpose being that when released to general population where conditions are somewhat improved, the prisoner causes no problems ... for fear of being sent back to the Control Unit."

Plans for Youngstown supermax. Announcing the groundbreaking of Ohio's new $65 million 500-bed supermax prison to be built in Youngstown, the state's prison chief, Reginald A. Wilkinson, is reported to have said this prison will be where "the worst of the worst of the worst" will be confined in near isolation.

"Prisoners will spend 23 hours most days in 8-by-10-foot cells where the televisions will be tuned primarily to institutional programs or religious services... There will be no group prisoner movement. "Inmates will have no outside recreation. Inside recreation will consist of a visit to a larger nearby cell, equipped only with a chin-up bar and a shower. One at a time, they will spend one hour a day there."

The "prototype", Colorado State Penitentiary. The "prototype" or model for the Youngstown supermax is the Colorado State Penitentiary (CSP). Each cell has a lidless, stainless-steel toilet, a bed, a stool bolted to the floor, built-in shelves, and a TV with no controls. The indoor recreation room has a slit in the wall to let in fresh air.

One difference between the Colorado State Penitentiary and the Youngstown supermax is that the housing units system in Colorado is fully air conditioned and the proposed Ohio facility is not. At the Colorado State Penitentiary, inmates enter at Level I and are expected to proceed through Level II to Level III. Level I inmates have no privileges. Prisoners at Level II have television but programs are determined by the prison's own station. Prisoners at Levels I and II must wear handcuffs, belly chains and leg shackles, and must be escorted by two guards whenever they leave their cells. At Level III, prisoners have more personal freedoms and more spending money. Level III prisoners are "allowed to walk the fifty feet to the shower or exercise room or telephone without escort. Prisoners at the different levels are mixed together in each unit, so that the privileges of those in Level III are visible to all."

However I'm not as confident as Sath that he would be put there according to this;

Who are "the worst of the worst" prisoners? Supermax prisons are justified by prison officials as necessary to control violent prisoners and other troublemakers.

Different terms are used to define criteria for assignment to control units: administrative control or administrative segregation; disciplinary control; local control (defined as an inmate having demonstrated chronic inability to adjust to the general population or presence will disrupt the orderly operation of the prison); protective control; security control; etc. In the Federal Penitentiary at Marion, Illinois, officials state, less than 9 percent of the inmates came directly into the control unit because they were involved in organized crime, terrorist activities, drug cartels or similar crimes, and are believed to have "special security needs." The remaining 91 percent were determined to have been highly assaultive or escape-prone: "25 percent were involved in prison murders or attempted murders, 48 percent in escape or attempted escape and more than 70 percent have a history of assaultive behavior while in prison.

I use to believe in the idea that we should abolish the death penalty and have them all commuted to Life in prison. But there comes a point where Inmates get use to living in prison and it becomes home sweet home sure at first they will grieve and feel like shit for a few years. Once they become adjusted the punishment no longer fits the crime.

[Tyche]

@Sath You really cannot lump all murderers into the "batshit crazy people who would prefer to die anyway" category. I know the justice system is a model for inefficiency, but we really don't have time to separate those who would rather die vs those who would rather live.

@Kuya, most (all?) of one's principles are influenced by their morals. Now if you want to ask me why I feel I can morally justify killing someone who did something like this, then I don't think I can answer it. Could be a number of things, the way I was raised, the environment I was raised in, my race, age, or any combination of all of the above and 15 others influences. I wouldn't call it outrage though. Would I be outraged if it happened to someone I knew/loved...absolutely. I have no moral tie to this person, and never had a moral tie to anyone brutally raped/murdered.

[BerenTebogo]

I consider myself a normal, well-adjusted person, and I would MUCH rather prefer to die than spend even 20 years in prison. Quality of life is far more important to many people than life period.

[Tyche]

Same, and I'd choose life. Now we spin it into the psychology of a criminal committing crimes worthy of capital punishment. Not really something I'm prepared to argue.

[Rhinox]

I consider myself a normal, well-adjusted person, and I would MUCH rather prefer to die than spend even 20 years in prison. Quality of life is far more important to many people than life period.

its easy to say that now but imagine if you committed a heinous crime and are sentenced to life in prison w/o parole. Can you honestly believe you would wake up crying every day 20 years from now? its a grieving process the first few years(I say a few years but it can be different for everybody) you Grieve the lose of your freedom but you would eventually adapt. its Human nature to adapt or die.

[BerenTebogo]

I agree, I don't want to start a full-fledged argument, but look at it from the perspective of serial killer, terrorist, bomber, or this torturer. In order commit any of these crimes you have to be either legally insane, in which you cannot be executed, or you are mentally competent and must hold the value of life in no regard whatsoever.

Sure, maybe some would not prefer to die, but I would say an educated guess would leave us with the majority preferring a quick death to life-long punishment.

Edit@ Rhinox: 20 years away from my wife and our life together would be unbearable, sorry, that's just how I see the world. I'm 100% certain.

[Kuya]

@Kuya, most (all?) of one's principles are influenced by their morals. Now if you want to ask me why I feel I can morally justify killing someone who did something like this, then I don't think I can answer it. Could be a number of things, the way I was raised, the environment I was raised in, my race, age, or any combination of all of the above and 15 others influences. I wouldn't call it outrage though. Would I be outraged if it happened to someone I knew/loved...absolutely. I have no moral tie to this person, and never had a moral tie to anyone brutally raped/murdered.

How can you defend a position and not even be sure why you take that position? And when i say moral outrage i mean that, when you read what this man did, did you not find it so revolting that your reaction to it was to desire his execution? This is what i mean by reactionary.

[Day]

I'm with Tyche on this one, as he's already said about exactly how I feel about the whole thing. I often wonder if we weren't more quick with the death penalty and used in cases like this if it would lower our crime rate in the long run? I think of this because of the Dubai threads where people are always so "Don't even fucking eat a poppy seed bagel", because they are so strict on drugs there... Seems like currently in the mind of a criminal, first they think they can get away with it, but secondly, at the worst, they end up in prison for a number of years, where they are fed, have a place to sleep, and surrounded by people just like them. If you were more likely to die would you be more likely to stop and think about what you are doing? Maybe not idk.

I think a lot more people would take the 20+ years than death, than you are giving credit for Sath. I know I'd choose life, of course I wouldn't be the happiest person alive, but alive I would be.

And how can you not be morally outraged by this, thats kind of a stupid question to ask, and of course it affects what I think the punishment should be... isn't that the point? Shouldn't the punishment match the crime? Shouldn't we have different degrees of crime? Don't you think this one is pretty fucking high up there?