Trial for 19 hour rape and torture case begins

[BerenTebogo]

I'm with Tyche on this one, as he's already said about exactly how I feel about the whole thing. I often wonder if we weren't more quick with the death penalty and used in cases like this if it would lower our crime rate in the long run? I think of this because of the Dubai threads where people are always so "Don't even fucking eat a poppy seed bagel", because they are so strict on drugs there... Seems like currently in the mind of a criminal, first they think they can get away with it, but secondly, at the worst, they end up in prison for a number of years, where they are fed, have a place to sleep, and surrounded by people just like them. If you were more likely to die would you be more likely to stop and think about what you are doing? Maybe not idk.

I think a lot more people would take the 20+ years than death, than you are giving credit for Sath. I know I'd choose life, of course I wouldn't be the happiest person alive, but alive I would be.

And how can you not be morally outraged by this, thats kind of a stupid question to ask, and of course it affects what I think the punishment should be... isn't that the point? Shouldn't the punishment match the crime? Shouldn't we have different degrees of crime? Don't you think this one is pretty fucking high up there?

As far as I know you also haven't killed, murdered, or raped anyone though, so it's not like you're ever going to have to make that decision.

[Tyche]

It's just a moral viewpoint of mine. Similar to I guess how I'd rather live in prison than die, and Sath would rather die. I doubt Sath and I are complete polar opposites psychologically, there's just something that has somehow influenced the way we think. In this case, I can't tell you why I've favored capital punishment. Maybe my ethical viewpoint is "eye for an eye" in cases such as this. I don't know. You just start listing crimes and I'll tell you whether I think they are deserving of capital punishment. There will be no rhyme or reason to which I may suggest the punishment. As far as calling it reactionary, of course it's reactionary, I'm presented with a situation, and I react based on a number of factors. Maybe outrage is one of them. Everytime a juror suggests a sentence, it's reactionary based on moral beliefs, evidence, peer persuasion, etc.

[Day]

As far as I know you also haven't killed, murdered, or raped anyone though, so it's not like you're ever going to have to make that decision.

Well that could be said for you too, so I'm not sure what the point of that was?

[Demosthenes11]

Speedy death penalty is a very fragile line to walk on

Perhaps add a sentence that jurors can issue for really obvious cases like this that reads "Death sentence with 0 reasonable doubt" or something.

Rather unrelated as well, but fuck most defense lawyers - fuck them in the ass

[Kuya]

I'm with Tyche on this one, as he's already said about exactly how I feel about the whole thing. I often wonder if we weren't more quick with the death penalty and used in cases like this if it would lower our crime rate in the long run? I think of this because of the Dubai threads where people are always so "Don't even fucking eat a poppy seed bagel", because they are so strict on drugs there... Seems like currently in the mind of a criminal, first they think they can get away with it, but secondly, at the worst, they end up in prison for a number of years, where they are fed, have a place to sleep, and surrounded by people just like them. If you were more likely to die would you be more likely to stop and think about what you are doing? Maybe not idk.

I didn't want to use a slippery slope argument, but thanks for setting one up for me.

Ladies and gentlemen, i present to you with an example as to where this kind of mentality will get you to: Dubai.

And how can you not be morally outraged by this, thats kind of a stupid question to ask, and of course it affects what I think the punishment should be... isn't that the point?

Don't worry, i know better than to ask people not to be irrational in these sorts of situations, i expect it. It's when you somehow think your opinion stemming from the heat of the moment should be institutionalized that i get antsy. Of course moral outrage will affect what you think the punishment should be, and this is why, in practice, passing judgements in an overly emotional manner is a bad idea.

Shouldn't the punishment match the crime?

An eye for an eye? This is good philosophy for you?

[Day]

Speedy death penalty is a very fragile line to walk on

I think everyone here understands that fairly well. Theres the same risk of throwing innocent people in prison, by which some have stated in this thread would be worse than dying, so I kind of feel like thats a whole different issue altogether. (Yes, I know death is permanent and thats obviously the difference)

[BerenTebogo]

As far as I know you also haven't killed, murdered, or raped anyone though, so it's not like you're ever going to have to make that decision.

Well that could be said for you too, so I'm not sure what the point of that was?

My bringing my personal view in it was to disprove that you needed to be batshit crazy to want to die instead, but the comparison was about people who clearly have no regard for life wanting to preserve there own not making much sense.

You have regard for life, and want to preserve yours, it makes sense psychologically. It's different if you're a murderer or torturer but all of a sudden have a flash of regard for life over taking the easier choice.

[Metah]

Dude this guy must have like 10000 Vitality if he has the Stamina to torture for 19 hours.

[Day]

Kuya, I'm not sure I follow. I don't think if I dwell on this story, (which I have been sadly), will change what I think his punishment should be, actually the more I've thought about it, the more I'd rather just see this guy die, or at least something worse than the normal life in prison.

Eye for an eye? I don't know about that so much as I feel like he should be punished more than the norm, and I'm not sure how we do that if he's going to die in a maximum security prison.

Sath, I see what your saying but I still find myself hard pressed to believe that the majority of murders and rapists would rather die than live in prison. I could be wrong it, wouldn't be the first time.

[Kuya]

I don't see how you can punish someone more than with life imprisonment, unless you include torture, which would be more of a punishment than death, but somehow i think most of the people asking for execution, for some reason or another, don't agree with torture. For whom is death supposed to be the punishment? For him because he won't be alive anymore? I don't think he's going to suffer much, if that's what you want, if he's dead. However, my intention isn't to make him suffer, what would i gain from that? Satisfaction? To me, keeping him away from the rest of us is sufficient, and even better if reform is possible.

[Day]

I guess I just feel like someone who does something that ridiculously horrible, doesn't deserve to exist. Obviously we disagree.

[Kuya]

And the thing with reactions is, you may think the death penalty is necessary, and i don't, but something we have in common is our reaction to this event, we are both disgusted and outraged by it, and even i, when infuriated enough, will desire the criminal to die from it, it's practically a natural reaction for someone who hasn't been indoctrinated otherwise. The only difference is, after a while, i snap out of my well of anger, and just go with what is sufficient, more efficient, and don't go with what makes me feel better.

It's obvious what the reaction of the average citizen is to this kind of atrocious event is, it is when your "logical" conclusion to how the situation should end seems similar to how someone would initially react to this, when it takes the characteristics of something reactionary. I hope i didn't make that too confusing to understand.

[Kuya]

I guess I just feel like someone who does something that ridiculously horrible, doesn't deserve to exist. Obviously we disagree.

The difference is i don't presume to know who deserves to live and who doesn't.

[Day]

I guess I just feel like someone who does something that ridiculously horrible, doesn't deserve to exist. Obviously we disagree.

The difference is i don't presume to know who deserves to live and who doesn't.

I didn't say that I was the end authority, it's just my opinion.

And I completely agree with your other post, it wasn't too confusing. I get what you are saying, I think we just have a difference of opinion on what the end result here should be, and that's ok.

[Kuya]

Alright then.

[Tyche]

Kuya, do you think the judicial system is atrocious because of sentencing based on ethical reactions? A judges and jurors job is pretty much what you are speaking against. They have sentencing guidelines, but even those aren't always followed, and were originally based on someone's feelings of what a proper punishment for a particular crime should be. What would you suggest for reform?

[Kuya]

Our understanding of the human psychology is still far too small to be able to reliable and continuously reform, and in the case of this guy, i think he needs some therapy while he's in jail because this guy has way too many issues. And yes, you are right, i disagree with alot regarding on how the judicial system is set up, it's more about punitive action, where the criminals don't really get better, but worse, instead of researching why they did what they did in the first place, and try to actively work on changing them, and avoiding the situation from occurring more often.

It's hard to move the North American judicial system towards a preventative stance on crime instead of punitive when dominant philosophies believe bad people are born bad, and that hell is supposed to be their punishment for being bad, you're just supposed to make them get there quicker.

Last part wasn't aimed at you though.

Also, aside from ethical judgements, we often place numbers on jail time depending on the crime to make breaking those laws even more unappealing. We don't think someone should receive life sentence for robbing, we think that's exaggerating, so we place a certain amount of time on jail time to make it unappealing enough, but not becoming too excessive, the more serious and dangerous a crime becomes, the higher the jail time in relation to it. Obviously crimes that are more dangerous require bigger deterrents, in this case, more jail time. Of course, some have the silly belief that you can quantify how bad something is into jail time, instead of looking at it the way i just explained, plus some other boring factors having to do with politics, money, and sociological jabber.

[pohibaba]

I used to support the death penalty and I still agree with it on a theoretical basis; there are some crimes (this is a good example of one) in which the person who committed it doesn't deserve to live anymore. The problem we have, though, is taking that theory and applying it to real life. In the real world, the death penalty is usually given to poor minorities because they don't have the money to afford a good attorney. Plus, this is the one mistake that once committed, can't be reversed.

[Correction]

some other boring factors having to do with politics, money, and sociological jabber.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2u5c94o.jpg

[Suburbanelite]

A lifetime of being a victim to anal rape would be too kind for him.

Your sig fits perfectly with this story.