New ToAU NMs (Now with 100% more Pandemonium!) pg77

[Uzor]

Also, if 1 dat entry could hold more than 1 mob model, it wouldn't explain why PW specifically has 2 instead of 1, or 5... (if we assume each unique chariot gets its own).
(For me, I thought Battleclad Chariot seems rather appropriate cos its design looks like a pair of horns on its head, like a demon.. like the dvergr..)

Could be because as I mentioned earlier, if one is the fake one (chariot) and one is the real one, they need a second one (the real one) to keep track of his real HP. Example:

Get PW1 (true) to 75% HP
PW1 transforms in to PW2 (Chariot)
PW2 at 100% HP, kills lamp and chariot
PW2 transforms in to PW1
PW1 now has 75% HP (same as when he transformed)

that said.. theres also the lamps to account for..
we know that there are 30 entries for lamps in the dats.. but we also know that they can be skulls or gears..
if we assume that each dat entry is for 1 mob only, and that there are equal number of skull lamps and gear lamps, then is 15 each.. and we can also throw out the whole 30 NMs to reach PW theory with regard to the significance in the number of lamps..

Now, if we assume he can only be battleclad chariot and not any other mob, and the lamps are then 15 skulls and 15 gears, that is good news. That means that the possible combination for repops is either 8 > 7, or 8 > 4 > 3, or 8 > 4 > 2 > 1. Out of those, I'd consider 8 > 4 > 2 > 1 the most likely.

Still, don't explain why there are skulls as you don't seem to actually fight them. So something's missing.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Still, don't explain why there are skulls as you don't seem to actually fight them. So something's missing.

Maybe they're just there to show you "btw these aren't really gears". Like the magic dolls in Windy-related missions and quests. You never actually fight them, but you do fight the thematically inappropriate monsters they summon.

[Asura_Zilla]

I'd like to note that PW does not teleport back the moment you leave the room, but the moment -it- (PW) reaches the room exits itself.

[Max™]

Judging by the fact you posted something about it being serious, you're not very bright. We'll never know the full length of it however, since I did delete your posts fairly quickly. Sorry for cleaning the thread of retarded bullshit. And now, since you've gone and quoted his stupid joke post- it has to stay.

Yeah ouch, I sense some hostility there. Yes, it was a serious suggestion. Very serious indeed. So, if someone had suggested that having a Puppetmaster using maneuvers to lock down Ob, would that be an 'inane' theory? Or kneeling to Odin to avoid Zantetsuken... basically stupid crap that could be debunked as 'inane' theory. You see where I'm going with this right? It's not like it's entirely off the wall anway. If a soultrapper affects this monster in anyway, I expect a formal apology, lol.

>.>

It was a stupid joke post, Rocl was quite correct.

I wasn't SERIOUSLY suggesting it, since most NM's wander back to their spawn radius before Depopping, shared hate, rail cannon x 8 destroying pets before you can do shit, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

[Pergatory]

Just adding my 2 cents... but it seems to me like the mob pops as a Dvergr and immediately changes... that's a glaring hint that you must get him back into Dvergr form in order to kill him. Probably why he just fell out of his Chariot when you killed the Chariot. In fact, killing the Chariot may just be the means to get him back into Dvergr form and buy another chance to keep him in Dvergr form, which is where the real fight occurs. I honestly think at this point that the entire Chariot fight is just a distraction or obstacle preventing you from the real fight.

That being said, I think a lot of focus and planning should be put into the few moments where he's in Dvergr form since he morphs so quickly. Line up a set of strategies and things to try all at once, and see if you can prevent him from going into Chariot form for any length of time.

Ideas:
-He used Hellsnap and then immediately morphed. Try to stun Hellsnap? Try both thunder-based stuns and maybe even toss in a SMN attempting Geocrush although it sounds like he may transform too quickly for a Blood Pact. Perhaps his morphing is tied to his using of a special move.

-Try to have the popper flee before popping? May be able to get "out of range" message on the special as an alternate way of preventing it from firing?

-Actions on the skull-shaped lamps before he morphs? Maybe they are part of the puzzle as well. Out of curiosity, what happens to existing lamps when the PW morphs from Dvegr to Chariot, do they depop or morph into gears? What happened to the final gear when you killed the Chariot, depop?

[tsola]

I'd like to note that PW does not teleport back the moment you leave the room, but the moment -it- (PW) reaches the room exits itself.

Yeah, thanks, I'm remembering that now.

Actually the safest way I think for dealing with the gears would be a dot kill. With bio and poison on you'd do 18/tick~, which would be 360dmg/min if my math is right. With that alone, it would about 70minutes to kill a gear, but you could be killing all 8 at once, and adding in 3 elemental dots (potentially up to 12dmg/tick I think? I can't remember how much INT you need for 4mg/tick), and a helix. You'd probably have to use the .dats swap, and be really coordinated/organized on who dots what lamp but it could work. A good kiter should be able to last at least 5minutes, if not more, without slipping up. And you can have other people on back up, for when a kiter dies. This way you'd never have to deal with Rail Cannon spam since the gears will always have hate on the kiter, who will never be in range for it.

Kind of ridiculous, but it could work. Especially for a a group without a ton of people I think.

And there's no way to prevent it from going into chariot form. The whole Hellsnap>pops lamps>turns into chariot/gears happens in about 2 seconds.

[Uzor]

Well, yes, Ob etc. could be different in that they are automatons and have "equipment", but they still change their spell sets and abilities. Although it is true you can't really compare the two, as automatons can and might be unique.

[Caerllion]

It's probably been said already, but next time someone pops it, kill all the gears and see if it changes back into a Dvegr?

[Zilong]

It's probably been said already, but next time someone pops it, kill all the gears and see if it changes back into a Dvegr?

Geez, I wonder why nobody thought of that.

Oh wait, they did, about 3 pages worth of discussion over it.

Would it be possible to split the topic into PW(read: AV) speculation and ZNM mob strategy? Because a lot of the good info on tier 1-4 strategies are now buried with bullshit allatard post now.

[Caerllion]

It's probably been said already, but next time someone pops it, kill all the gears and see if it changes back into a Dvegr?

Geez, I wonder why nobody thought of that.

Oh wait, they did, about 3 pages worth of discussion over it.

Would it be possible to split the topic into PW(read: AV) speculation and ZNM mob strategy? Because a lot of the good info on tier 1-4 strategies are now buried with bullshit allatard post now.

People aren't posting to take up space and make bullshit ideas that have no use... they are giving different ideas for the next people who pop this incredibly tough monster... the lower tier ZNM are all weak and can all be done with 6-12 people or less with simple strategies... now it's time to move on to the big boy stuff so stop your boohooing and let people post. If you want help with weak mobs and are too lazy to dig, then make a new thread and ask people to post there.

[Suterusu]

It's probably been said already, but next time someone pops it, kill all the gears and see if it changes back into a Dvegr?

Geez, I wonder why nobody thought of that.

Oh wait, they did, about 3 pages worth of discussion over it.

Would it be possible to split the topic into PW(read: AV) speculation and ZNM mob strategy? Because a lot of the good info on tier 1-4 strategies are now buried with bullshit allatard post now.

People aren't posting to take up space and make bullshit ideas that have no use... they are giving different ideas for the next people who pop this incredibly tough monster... the lower tier ZNM are all weak and can all be done with 6-12 people or less with simple strategies... now it's time to move on to the big boy stuff so stop your boohooing and let people post. If you want help with weak mobs and are too lazy to dig, then make a new thread and ask people to post there.

Dear Caerllion,

You door.

Before you tell someone else to dig, why don't you read pages 77+ before giving us your great "insight"(sp). It's obvious that you only read the last 3 pages before hitting reply.

Thanks.

[Therin]

Dear Caerllion,

You door.

Before you tell someone else to dig, why don't you read pages 77+ before giving us your great "insight"(sp). It's obvious that you only read the last 3 pages before hitting reply.

Thanks.

First time I've agreed with him in like a year and a half.

[shaddix]

Would it be possible to split the topic into PW(read: AV) speculation and ZNM mob strategy?

this would be cool!

[Ramsey]

Occam's Razor. Don't make it more complicated than it need be. As far as I am aware Astral Flow BPs are pretty rubbish post 70 BPs... sadly... Really wish SE would change that, signature moves like Diamond Dust should always hit for the most And as far as Ruinous Omen getting resisted, I was under the impression that it worked like Demi from previous FFs and did a random percent of damage, but perhaps not.

Occam's Razor is a total cop out man.

Ruinous Omen has never had a set of mobs like this.

How is a sound scientific principle a cop out? I wasn't even specifically talking about your plan, just the general loony posts. The solution is usually the most simple, unless something indicates otherwise. Maybe the Ruinous Omen idea would be ok, but I don't think that requiring 10 summoners to SP Diabolos is going to be the major strategy that we find and use. That's all.

[Rocl]

I give up.

Have the thread.

Take pictures of it with a Soultrapper.

I don't care anymore, this is beyond repair.

[Kaylia]

Are there any way to low man Tier 2 cerberus route? I can get to tier 3 on hydra and khimaira route with 2 people but I don't see how I can duo/trio Anantaboga, Dextrose, Reacton.

Anantaboga is a joke to kite, but it got ton of hp, and you know something will go wrong eventually with charm or 2k dmg ws. Havent fought reacton yet.

Dextrose is probably your best bet at lowman, but I never fought it with less than pld/rdm/thf/blm/blm (5 ppl). as long as you have a dispeller for m.def bonus, and 2 nuker, it shouldnt be a problem, but 2 people might not be enough to kill it before repop.

But seriously, instead of going for 1h fight against the dragon with 2-3, just bring 4-5 and do a multiples 5minutes fight against dextrose with 4-6 people. Not to mention it take less time to get to Dextrose than it does to get to the dragon.

[donnie]

regarding Pandemonium, Many ideas keep floating in my head and Might as well share them.

all my ideas was based on " it has to be a simple solution" , I mean I don't think SE wants you to run back and forth kiting gears and DoT each of them for 1h30min to kill 1 form only. and I think from noticing how the T1-T3 monster behave , they just have simple tricks that without = hard , with the tricks = easy. and if you are in dev team in that period of time, you will always tend to think in the same manner in a period of time.

anyways, from that point of view I suggest the next LS that get lucky and be able to fight him to consider the following:

1- Since its possible that he will keep changing forms ( amertat NM 4 forms) it might be just limited forms then he will be back to his original form ( final form ). and to consider the time it will take even with no linking problems to kill all gears + gear to get 1 form off, it lead me to believe that their intention is that you focus on killing the Chariot while leaving gears/lamp and just consider them an obstacle ( yes its a crazzy idea ), but I do notice how gears melee dmg was very weak and also the LS killed the chariot rather fast. so the main target here is to kill the chariot as fast as possible while ignoring gears. ( maybe there is a way to stop gears from using their TP moves?) perhaps casting something or doing something to them, makes them counter the attack ? or maybe casting something would lock them in a counter reaction to that action.

2- considering how the LS said that even chariot is moving in normal speed while Salvage chariots arent. It might be thier intention to kite the chariot once the dvelger transforms. Didn't see any info regarding the gear movement speed but assuming they are also on normal speed, it might just another vrtra normal fight but having all vrtra SMNs up at the same time.

3- there might be an animation that is not recorded in log , that triggers TP moves or w/e , or just once chariot does a TP moves gears do ? i dont know , but Ixion have 2 animation that is not recorded that gives alot of hints and considering they are both from same update. i go back to what i said before , dev team will think in the manner for this period of time.

thats about it really , hope it triggers more ideas.

[chazzyphizzle]

I'm sure it's been posted before, but it sounds very SE, and most every RPG-esque to assume that the chariot version of Pandemonium is his suit of armor, and only damage done to the Dvergr(sp) form will go towards actually killing it. Perhaps hold one gear as they did until they are about to kill the chariot model, then kill the gear immediately followed by the chariot. Then you *may* have a set amount of time or % of dmg to do to the Dvergr(sp) form until he respawns lamps and turns back into chariot. Rinse, repeat, die a lot, ???, profit. Or maybe not, just bored and speculation entertains me.

[zoobernut]

I'm sure it's been posted before, but it sounds very SE, and most every RPG-esque to assume that the chariot version of Pandemonium is his suit of armor, and only damage done to the Dvergr(sp) form will go towards actually killing it. Perhaps hold one gear as they did until they are about to kill the chariot model, then kill the gear immediately followed by the chariot. Then you *may* have a set amount of time or % of dmg to do to the Dvergr(sp) form until he respawns lamps and turns back into chariot. Rinse, repeat, die a lot, ???, profit. Or maybe not, just bored and speculation entertains me.

If you feel the need to begin your post with this statement then DON'T POST! Read the thread make sure 100% this statement is unnecessary then post.

On a side note I noticed in the first post of the thread that Enkidu's Subligar is listed twice as a drop from the Tier 3 mobs. Is this true or a typo? I did not notice any other armor pieces being dropped from more than one mob.

[Zekyr]

On a side note I noticed in the first post of the thread that Enkidu's Subligar is listed twice as a drop from the Tier 3 mobs. Is this true or a typo? I did not notice any other armor pieces being dropped from more than one mob.

You're joking, right?

Every one of [Oracle/Aurum/Enkidu] [hands/legs/feet] drops from two separate tier 3 ZNMs.

This was proven back in the page 30s or something.

How else would all 9 of the tier 3 ZNMs have two different drops?