New ToAU NMs (Now with 100% more Pandemonium!) pg77

[Max™]

It isn't worth considering seriously at this point.

If it did work, you'd have to do it to what, 8 Gears?
How long would it last?
Would it just randomly kill them?
So taking 8 pictures and beating up a rather simple chariot fight sounds reasonable?

The chariot itself isn't hard at all, he dropped like a 6 old who just got gutpunched by a boxer, yet this is THE top end boss for ZNM's?

Logically a good portion of the awesome gears unfound will be on this mob.

The gears on the other hand are so hard as to be damn near, if not completely broken.

Someone brought up Occam's razor, the simplest answer is that you're not supposed to be throwing away 50k exp every time you fight him, you're just supposed to manage the gears while you beat him down, and therein lies the difficulty.

You can't just kite them away, they'll come back, you can't TP them cause they'll rapega you, can't sleep grav or bind em.

Sounds like a chaotic situation to me.

Basically you're stuck with a fight that you absolutely cannot control if you want to win, you kill the gears, he might pop 10 next time, you kill even one gear while killing him, he'll repop with all 8, so what if you just focus on taking him down, while staying alive.

I'm going to officially go with this theory btw, it makes more sense than him popping less Gears several times. I believe now that if they killed the last gear, he would have popped 10~15 of them.

[Therin]

I don't think so, Max. I think this will be a two-tiered fight. The Chariot probably needs to be defeated, but I would imagine in a similar way to Ying/Yang. Kill all the Gears, then defeat the Chariot before he can respawn them - this will Reraise PW and he will stay in his Dvergr form. I don't think they'd go through the trouble making him a Dvergr if they're just gonna make him stay in Chariot form. You have to kill it in Dvergr, I'm 99% sure about that.

[Zekyr]

Excalibur on Fairy currently 2/3

Edit: 2/2 on Sarameya hides >_>;

drop rate, Ridills, ninjaed, etc

[arus2001]

Meanwhile, the "theory" kind of contradicts a nice chunk of the rest of the ZNM system (casual NM encounters that don't require huge groups if you figure out the tricks to each mob and aren't gimp). It's reasonable to assume that mobs should get harder as you move up the tiers, and while I've only fought the Hydra equivalent so far (no drop), it wasn't that bad. This "theory" practically demands multiple alliances to not only handle the gears, but also support of the primary alliance as they handle the Diffusion Rays, Discoids, etc.. Throw more RNG/BLM/SMN at it? Well gee, that's original. Sure would suck to be a shell short on those.

Keep in mind these guys gave up. While I don't hold it against them given the EXP they bled away and the hours spent in that dank hellhole, we don't know the entire gamut of PW's moves or just how those extra Lamps come into play. Should he go Ix'DRK and just RR until he drops stuff, would you seriously want to juggle those super-hard gears a dozen or more times because there's no "trick" to this fight? If that's the case, fuck the mob just like AV. Lemming fights, zombie tactics, and walls of justice might be okay in figuring things out, but I honestly can't believe SE would make that our only hope. Really, saying the fight's supposed to be Pandemonium makes as much sense as the Virtue Weapons being AV's weakness. A play on words in both cases, sure, but that's about it.

That said, I'm still curious about any unaccounted text in the dats for Adeewya. It doesn't shoot down the idea until someone actually tries a ST, but something might point us in the right direction at least.

[Max™]

They were trying to kill the gears and kite pande.

Killing pande by itself isn't that hard, dealing with 8 gears would be a fucking pain in the ass, but if you're just trying to stay alive, you'd do things differently.

I do believe you will have to kill him in Dvergr mode too, but I think killing the Chariot with all 8 gears up will "unmask" him permanently, which logically will turn the 8 OMGRAEPYOURAILCANNONGA gears into 8 skulls, which will likely have different stats/hp totals/resistances/attacks.


How many people would it take to reasonably kill the gears without losing tens of thousands of experience points? Well over an alliance there for the first pop, correct?


Ok, how many people would it take to continually work at keeping the gears busy while the chariot was killed?

8~10 depending on healers needed/kiting methods?

Leaving over a party to work on the Chariot in just a single alliance sized group.


Yeah, it was a play on words, but no matter how you fight it, it will be a chaotic crazy fight.

My point is, if you have a group of bad asses, and one chubby nerd... but there is a chance that beating up the chubby nerd will make the bad asses go away...

Why not beat up the chubby nerd first?

We know for sure that killing at least one gear and then the chariot results in a respawn, so you're left with the question of what would be easier to test.

Kill all 8 gears and hope it doesn't pop 10 on you.

Kill the Chariot while keeping the gears busy, and worst case, you get another chariot and the mob is just retarded.

[dejet]

I'm a little surprised that the decision to keep a gear alive was made so easily, especially after over thinking the first key's pop location despite the NPC being straight forward and telling you to go Aydeewa. I know that the mob changing to a Chariot was unexpected, but I don't see any indicator that would show that keeping a gear alive would be necessary. That would be like the first group ever to pop Kirin, not knowing what to expect-- it summons Seiryu and that group thinking "Oh we probably have to keep Seiryu alive in order to kill Kirin." Uh, huh? That doesn't make much sense.

Regardless, great attempt and thanks for indulging all of us.

Exactly what I was thinking when I first read that everyone was doing that...

Funny that both the guy that thinks this have 2 and 3 post on there count.

As soemone said, if they have killed that gear, get wiped by repop or anything and loose claim you would have say, hey your'e too stupid you should have left 1 gear up.

they where by no means wrong in what they did. for all we know it will pop new ones. but maybe next time at 5% hp hold him and kill off that gear and see what happens. at this point we will find a things out
1)what will happen if you do kill all pets.
2)will it change back? more pets?

if it pops new pets see how many pop.

hay maybe it will change back after the pets are dead and be at 5% wont be hard to take that last little bit of hp down.


again i think what they did was great, knowing what we do now i would of held the pet till the last 5%.


anyone saying "but you should of killeded it!" is just going off what we know now. they had a plan they did fine. i mean how many mobs can you look up and see "when <monster name here> dies its pets die along side it" that is like 100 other bst NM. not all but there are some so just give it a rest.

[Max™]

Still say that's overcomplicating it, ANY strat involving killing gears is going to take hours upon hours, huge amounts of exp loss, or swarms of players.

Kiting gears would require SIGNIFICANTLY less people, should result in much less exp loss, and would let you focus on the main subject at hand...

You know, the mob you were trying to pop?


When most mobs spawn pets, people either nuke them down to get them out of the way, or run them off if they're troublesome, but they generally keep worrying about the fight at hand.

You don't focus all of your attention on a Drg mobs Wyvern to the point where you will not even consider attacking the master til the Wyvern is dead.

Why?

It's just gonna call another one, you have someone else kill it while they're free, or take it somewhere else.

Pande and the gears won't leave his room, the gears can be dragged around the room, but won't leave the room, positioning is key with a chariot, but I bet you could have a tanking group/Dmg group working on Pande at one end, and people dealing with the Gears at the other end, giving breathing room when the gears run back to Warden.

If you can't kill them easily, and you can't run them far enough away to be a non-issue, you've got to occupy them somehow while you kill the easier target.

[dejet]

Still say that's overcomplicating it, ANY strat involving killing gears is going to take hours upon hours, huge amounts of exp loss, or swarms of players.

Kiting gears would require SIGNIFICANTLY less people, should result in much less exp loss, and would let you focus on the main subject at hand...

You know, the mob you were trying to pop?


When most mobs spawn pets, people either nuke them down to get them out of the way, or run them off if they're troublesome, but they generally keep worrying about the fight at hand.

You don't focus all of your attention on a Drg mobs Wyvern to the point where you will not even consider attacking the master til the Wyvern is dead.

Why?

It's just gonna call another one, you have someone else kill it while they're free, or take it somewhere else.

Pande and the gears won't leave his room, the gears can be dragged around the room, but won't leave the room, positioning is key with a chariot, but I bet you could have a tanking group/Dmg group working on Pande at one end, and people dealing with the Gears at the other end, giving breathing room when the gears run back to Warden.

If you can't kill them easily, and you can't run them far enough away to be a non-issue, you've got to occupy them somehow while you kill the easier target.

why kiting wont work.
1) you lose agro/hate when you leave room
2) the gears randomly attacked people they said. at one point they pulled gears off zerged it and it just start attacking the pld/nin on DW.
3) we have 10 mobs! this is the most pets for any NM at its lvl.
4) 10 pets 25,000 hp each somehow you need to deal 250,000 dmg. that is more dmg that mobs we deal with. (ya this does not deal with kiting but its just info on why this is a hard fight lol)



all this makes for just as much exp lose.

there is some trick we do not understand its the 1st time we are dealing with it, don't think that that last boss is going to be a pushover. way i see it is you more then likely have to kill the gears because his HP is just a joke.... maybe by killing all the gears AND him you get a new one not just a repop. something like that seems like it can be.

holy shit i have it! the 1up interview! the clues there! we use SMNS astral flow does same dmg to any number of mobs zome! get 30 smns!

[Xno Kappa]

Yeah...I think its about time to separate this thread.

[Max™]

The gears are going to peel off and go for Warden randomly no matter what.

The difference that I'm suggesting is, instead of throwing Exp away working on an annoyingly difficult target WHICH WILL HAVE AN ABSOLUTELY MINIMAL EFFECT ON THE FIGHT, you could have inflicted that damage on the main target itself.


I'm saying have people who are dedicated to doing nothing but keeping the gears occupied as much as possible, because anything which is that nasty, can't be harder to drag around than it is to drag around AND kill.


Don't have to leave the room, it's a good sized room last I checked, tuck Warden off to the far side, and the rest of the room can be used for the Gear group to keep them busy.


If that wouldn't work, there has to be some sort of strategy where you could stay reasonably safe, and inflict damage to the Warden bit by bit while kiting things around.

Hell, yo-yo him back and forth, Nuke the piss out of him with the gears on one side, get drawn in, run like hell the other way, lather, rinse, repeat.

[Theenabler]

*Does not share hate with lamps, nor does it link with them.

Does this mean you can have a full wipe and pull Pande on its own without having to deal with gears? If so, it would make Max's strat alot easier. If not, You might want to rephrase that.

[dejet]

from what they said the gears link with DW but he dont link with them. so no that wont work.

[Theenabler]

Would still make it so you could kill Pande off by himself and the lamps could be kited around without going back to the person with hate on Pande, but that kinda contradicts what ppl have said.

[dejet]

again the kiting cant seem to work b/c they randomly attack people at times. i mean maybe? but still have the same thing mass death from random attacks.

[Theenabler]

He said that Pande doesn't share hate with lamps, which, according to what he is saying, would mean that you could pull the lamps, kite them around, then pull pande and kill him without gears coming back to hit the person with hate on Pande, although its been stated that even if you did this, gears would still come hit the person with hate on Pande.

[Mazmaz]

Out of curiousity, has anyone tried a WAR's Tomahawk on ZNMs like Armed Gears and other ZNMs with damage reduction to see if it has any effect?

[Max™]

It's been proven that you can kite the lamps and pande around to some extent.

The difference was, this kiting was used to attack the lamps and whittle away at them.

Worst case, focusing on Pande while kiting the lamps should be more or less similar difficulty, but killing the Chariot is the easier way to prove/disprove a lot of these theories.

1 fairly squishy mob, or 8 not as squishy nasty VIOLENT mobs that simultaneously spamga WSes.

One of two things will probably happen, either I'm right, and he'll get locked into Dvergr form, and proceed to Deathga wipe the alliance or something for lulz...

or

He'll repop as Chariot, and we'll know for sure that by deduction you have to kill all 8 Gears.


The Gears have been kited around, it just randomly goes back to the Warden from time to time, so you pull them back off him.

Same thing you would do if you were killing a Gear.

It's the same exact strat ultimately, just a different target to attack.

[Asura_Zilla]

Except it was killed with 1 gear left and repopped the same... what would be the difference with all 8 gears left? I'm sorry, but it just sounds stupid.

[Max™]

There are three ways you can have the gears.

Many mobs are known to keep up with the condition of their pets, ones that will respawn when a certain number are gone, that have different AI's when different amounts are around.

So it comes down to this:

All gears up, All gears down, or 1-7 gears up.

If the first condition is the correct one, then the fight is difficult, but doable, the last condition is disproven, 1 gear up is the same as 7 gears up, since when he died with less than max number, he just resummoned them all and went back to chariot mode.

If the second condition is the correct one, this fight is fucking retardedly difficult, beyond the point of reason, and one can only hope that IF that option holds true, he doesn't respawn more of them and then require THEM killed before he can be finally killed.

Basically, what you see as sounding stupid, I see as a puzzle that has one desireable possible solution, and one very undesireable sounding possible solution.

[tsola]

Does this mean you can have a full wipe and pull Pande on its own without having to deal with gears? If so, it would make Max's strat alot easier. If not, You might want to rephrase that.

Sorry, I can see how what I said was confusing.

Assuming a full wipe, and both PW and gears are at spawn point:

*If you pull a gear, ALL the gears will link and will have hate on whoever pulled them. PW however will sit at it's spawn point, since PW does NOT link with the gears.
*If you pull PW, all the gears will link with PW.
*If you have someone pull a gear, and then a few seconds later pull PW, the gears will forget about the person that pulled them originally and go assist PW.

Hope this clears some things up.