Footwork - New MNK JA info

[Sechs]

Just a thought out of my unlimited stupidity.
If the main goal of this JA was to give us a strong, slow attack with high TP return, high damage to help us gain some utility in those fight where we have troubles due to high defense of the mob, or due to the fact we feed them too much TP with out fast blows, if this really was the main goal of this JA, wouldn't it be an incoherence to powerup too much our kick attack/double attack rate? (as much as I think we still need more tests to see if Double Attack really can pop, and at the same time as Kick Attack)

That would add more kicks in the same attack turn which is nice from a certain point of view. An activation rate of 40% seems insane, it would probably pay off the loss of damage from Dune Boots, but would it make sense? Would it be coherent with the role this JA should have? (i.e. attack as less as possible, but with high damage and high tp return)


P.S.
New kick animation with left foot is nice, but Galka kicking looks so wrong :'(

[LD]

Gearing for additional auto-attacks with Footwork is not 'an incoherence'. It is not incoherent, nor is it incongruous. What it MIGHT be is counterproductive or -intuitive, but not only don’t I believe that (since the reason MNK failed on the high def/level mobs before was the low damage to TP ratio per hit, not that there were many of them), even if it were, that's entirely situational. Due to Footwork’s TP efficiency, said situation would have to be one where you wouldn’t want ANY melee on it. While that’s possible, it’s not very common and would come with the exclusion of most other melee jobs, so it would at least be acceptable.

[Sechs]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, what you're basically saying is that yes, from a certain point of view having more attacks (kick attack or double attack proc) in the same attack turn can somehow be seen counterproductive if you think about the amount of TP you're giving to the target.
But, at the same time, the situation is not much different from that of any other melee, tpgiven-wise.
And since melees other than MNK did indeed get a place in alliance on some monsters, we now may have the same chance they always had, and we have to thank footwork for that, since the main issue was rather the damage/tpgain issue, rather than the tpgiven one.

Did I get it right? If I did I see your point, and I have to say that now I agree with what you said, thanks for sharing

[Rawfury]

i just wanted to voice my opinion, and what i found out using footwork.

since it dont consider delay i planted spartans {H2H damage on weapons still effect all ws, but dk (it never did before why should it now)} i have been able to keep up spamming ws's /nin (yes yes i know bout timers but in merit pt, you shouldnt need to cast utsu ni more than once a min anyway) with a full usu geared mnk, thnx to the 43 tp return and the fact that i proc kick attacks alot(i got on relic pants + merits + dune) it seemed evertime they had tp so did i, so fully hasted mnk with destroyers, and me with footwork were doin same amount of ws's, just since i had spartans id do more damage on asuran. this was during a mamool merit pt, we had a rdm haste, and brd with us, i was eating bream sushi, i dont know what the other mnk was eating, the bottom line was i was hittin less but harder, the other mnk was hihttin more but not as hard, there is a balance to it if you care to see the big picture, see all those high damage h2h's spartans, relic, so on. delay dont matter and you can spam asuran fists faster than you would be able to if you were melee'n with em on. gettin a better picture of the benifits of this new ability, seriously though its a new toy enjoy it til SE breaks it.

ive also used /war in a merit pt, that and footwork was pretty fun spammin asuran fists like that of a sam would.(8hits to get initial 100 tp, 5 hits there after if i got atleast 36 tp return)

if you are on siren server and dont belive me feel free to bring ur mnk with all ur haste gear, and ill bring mine in order for you to see for yourself.

[Burnsy]

Rawfury -

Your observations, while basically correct, probably have a few flaws.

In a merit pt, unless your fighting bones, how often do you have 2-3 mnks as melee, not *too* often. I still think on most meritable mobs h2h is going to beat out footwork, if a parse was run. Big damage paired with high delay has one fatal flaw, you miss. DRKs face this all the time, so do SAMs.

Unless your FW acc is in the 95% range, through the course of a 2-3 hour merit session, I'd be willing to bet that the h2h MNKs dmg is going to beat one that uses only footwork.

Personally I like to mix the two, gain tp with h2h quick, pop FW, hit it with a WS, and ride out the tp till the next mob, WS at start, drop FW and proceed to tank till my FW timer is back up, maybe just playstyle, but I think the proper mix of h2h/FW is going to make all the difference to each MNK.

[Motenten]

Quick test of the level 68 Junhanshi Habaki, normal melee mode (no Footwork), mnk/dnc, no Brutal, no Melee Hose (so no other sources of kick or double attacks).

With Fumas, I got 12 kicks in 100 rounds, matching base 10 + 2 merits.
With Junhanshi, I got 38 kicks in 100 rounds, giving an estimated +25 KA rate.

Correlates well with Raithen's results, though I would have expected more of a difference between the first and third iteration of this boot line (was expecting something like +15, +20, +25). If they're all +25 then the associated stat on each will be the determining factor. If the level 50 boots are +20 instead then you'd still want the higher level boots.

[a351must2]

I got to parse a farming session today, farming Coppercaps in N.Gusta_S ... to me time/kill has always had the biggest effect on whether these mobs are even worth killing for mushrooms.

My normal parsed killrate is 36sec/fight and 26sec/mob. With footwork up for 150 mobs I ended up at a rate of 42sec/fight and 33sec/mob. It "felt" faster because I was able to WS on every mob, but the parser definately showed a slower killrate.

The only gear difference I did between parses was Dune Boots instead of Fuma. Both parses were with melee hose and 16% (fuma) / 13% (dune) haste.

The 300TP SA Dragon Kicks I tried before starting parsing where nice though ... one-shotting Coppercaps with 1700+dmg single hit ones.

Has any tested if Martial Knuckles just happen to affect Dragon Kick with footwork active? I'd test if I could find some to buy. Would be kinda interesting doing gods as mnk/thf with M.Knuckles instead of war/thf with M.Bhuj.

[Cream Soda]

I got to parse a farming session today, farming Coppercaps in N.Gusta_S ... to me time/kill has always had the biggest effect on whether these mobs are even worth killing for mushrooms.

My normal parsed killrate is 36sec/fight and 26sec/mob. With footwork up for 150 mobs I ended up at a rate of 42sec/fight and 33sec/mob. It "felt" faster because I was able to WS on every mob, but the parser definately showed a slower killrate.

The only gear difference I did between parses was Dune Boots instead of Fuma. Both parses were with melee hose and 16% (fuma) / 13% (dune) haste.

The 300TP SA Dragon Kicks I tried before starting parsing where nice though ... one-shotting Coppercaps with 1700+dmg single hit ones.

Has any tested if Martial Knuckles just happen to affect Dragon Kick with footwork active? I'd test if I could find some to buy. Would be kinda interesting doing gods as mnk/thf with M.Knuckles instead of war/thf with M.Bhuj.

With about an hour of personal testing on lesser colibri, I can say that Martial Knukcles DO NOT work with footwork active.

[Raithen]

Haven't gotten around to more tests yet, but I wanted to respond to some of this anyway. In regard to my first test with the level 50 Junkenshi Habaki, I began with the assumption that all 3 shoes would have the same Kick bonus which is why I picked up the shoes with accuracy. I will probably buy NQs of the 60 and 68 shoes as well to test unless more people post some convincing data like Motenten (thanks by the way).

In regard to Martial Knuckles not affecting WS during Footwork I am pretty disappointed. I've had my Martial Knuckles for quite a while for my MNK/THF setup just because DK at 200% is better than all the 2-handed WS people Sneak Attack at 200% (or 100% with Hagun). The multiplier for 1 hand is 2.75, both hands is basically 3.75, a fist(a Dune Boots foot is bigger now) isn't horribly lower than Hagun for base D purposes, and the combined mods are higher than SAM's STR75 (DK STR50 VIT50). This isn't a big deal really as now with Footwork and the new Kick Attacks shoes a MNK/THF will probably get close to 200% TP in the one minute period between SATA timers. To be honest I sold my Hagun just before this patch and have been pushing for use of my MNK/THF in traditional SAM/THF environments, the only thing lacking is Overwhelm for TA only WS.

Edit: I just ran another 100 Kick rounds with Junkenshi Habaki (level 50). Had the same setup, Trait + 2 Merit + Relic legs for 17% Kick rate. My result with the Habaki was 42/100 kicks for +25 Kick Attack rate.

[a351must2]

I did Dynamis Beaucadine this weekend as mnk/thf and kept footwork up full time. Was as much fun as war/thf with M.Bhuj, except for not getting the 1600-2K dmg ws's. As long as SA hit, dragon kick was over 1K dmg at 100tp. The new kick boots made TP gain on par with 19% haste, 20% double attack M.Bhuj war (sometimes faster). I actually was getting 100TP in ~45 seconds pretty consistantly going by the SA timer...with only 13% gear haste and 1 march from our brd.

I'd have a good parse vs. the War, but he d/c'd a few times and ruined it. I parsed just ahead of a sam, but he's new to the LS so I've never parsed vs. him before. The other mnk that wasn't using footwork also d/c'd early on, and was filtered. Eventually I'll get this figured out and know whether to show up as mnk/thf or war/thf.

[Rawfury]

If you want to see high damage dragon kicks using footwork and sneak attack use dune boots, and a weapon that either increases ur mods via meteor cesti, or something that increases acc and attack via wagh. Both should still be hella cheap on ah, so u can grab and try urself. feel free to macro in dune boots for ws only and use the new feet to tp in dune boots increases the damage of dk its nice to be able to switch out a "Weapon" and not lose tp, but u will do considerably less a hit, but gain tp pretty quick.

[Neosutra]

The new kick attacks boots seem to boost the % regardless of wether your using footwork.

This lends the question of wether they are now the best TP peice for mnk, even worth sacrificing the usukane set bonus.

One question I have is wether dragon kick modifier with dune boots is in effect w/o footwork in effect, and how it performs versus AF on average.

New great mnk tp setup:
Usu head
20acc/20att/5crit Dommmmaruuuu
Usu hands
Haidate
BB
Kick Attacks+ boots

20% haste, +25% kickattacks, 4 more acc than usukane set, 3 more attack than usukane set, 5% more crit hit.

Or 25% haste, 12 more evasion, 12 more storetp with usukane set.

So which is better?

5% haste vs. 25% more kick attacks, 5% crit hit, 4acc/3att.

Hmmm.....

[azagarth]

well if it works anything like sams subbing drg because the 5% haste outweights the tp gain of 10 DA, that i would say 5% haste is still better.

ah damn i didnt see the crit in there lol... well now id go with the kicks and crit....

we currently use destroyers over wags because the 6% crit smashes their damage, and they are like 13 delay less. seeing that we will crit like mad men now im getting giddy lol.

but again if the new h2h truely do outdo destroyers and are obtainable for the masses then maybe a crit build will be less important....

[Kuponut]

The new kick attacks boots seem to boost the % regardless of wether your using footwork.

This lends the question of wether they are now the best TP peice for mnk, even worth sacrificing the usukane set bonus.

One question I have is wether dragon kick modifier with dune boots is in effect w/o footwork in effect, and how it performs versus AF on average.

New great mnk tp setup:
Usu head
20acc/20att/5crit Dommmmaruuuu
Usu hands
Haidate
BB
Kick Attacks+ boots

20% haste, +25% kickattacks, 4 more acc than usukane set, 3 more attack than usukane set, 5% more crit hit.

Or 25% haste, 12 more evasion, 12 more storetp with usukane set.

So which is better?

5% haste vs. 25% more kick attacks, 5% crit hit, 4acc/3att.

Hmmm.....

Hachiryu Haramaki and Hachiryu Kote

[Neosutra]

The new kick attacks boots seem to boost the % regardless of wether your using footwork.

This lends the question of wether they are now the best TP peice for mnk, even worth sacrificing the usukane set bonus.

One question I have is wether dragon kick modifier with dune boots is in effect w/o footwork in effect, and how it performs versus AF on average.

New great mnk tp setup:
Usu head
20acc/20att/5crit Dommmmaruuuu
Usu hands
Haidate
BB
Kick Attacks+ boots

20% haste, +25% kickattacks, 4 more acc than usukane set, 3 more attack than usukane set, 5% more crit hit.

Or 25% haste, 12 more evasion, 12 more storetp with usukane set.

So which is better?

5% haste vs. 25% more kick attacks, 5% crit hit, 4acc/3att.

Hmmm.....

Hachiryu Haramaki and Hachiryu Kote

Your correct in saying the Kote would be superior to Usukane as they added crit rate with the same accuracy would balance out. However 2 counter and 10 evasion is very nice when you have hate 90% of the time Q.Q, and might end up giving you more DoT.

The difference is: If we assume Hachiryu Domaaarruuuuu comes from Pande, then we will have very few people with the option of testing this, at least for a while. I believe this new setup would beat out usukane by a good margin, trading some survivability for a good boost in DoT.

For most of the things I use mnk for, I will still stick with full usukane. The biggest things I am taking from this update for my mnk is the new h2h (IF THEY ARE EVER FUCKING FOUND), and black tathum.

[Motenten]

@Neosutra:

5% haste scales relative to how much haste you have already. Therefore we want to gauge how much the alternative will improve damage, then see how much haste is needed to cause +5% to gain that much of a percentage as well.

--

So, for 25% more kick attacks, 5% crit hit, 4acc/3att:

Assumed: Brutal Earring, max Kick Attack merits, /nin subjob.

Total attacks per 100 rounds would be 200 + 10 + 15 = 225.

1)

+25 KA would be 250/225 = 11.1% greater TP gain. 4 acc is 2% hit rate, and (assuming base hit rate between 80% and 90%) would be a 2.2% to 2.5% greater TP gain. Those are compounded effects, so net TP gain would be 13.6% to 13.9% greater TP gain. With a typical 75/25 split of melee/weaponskill damage, that means 3.4% to 3.5% improvement in damage from weaponskills due to faster TP gain.

2a)

I assume the 5% crit rate boost should apply to both normal weapons and kicks; thus crit rate should be roughly 21% on hands and 15% on feet.

I'll use a moderate 1.25 average pDiff (after level correction) and +7 fStr for figuring average damage.

Hands: (53 + 7) * 1.25 = 75; crits for 135; overall average of (75 * .79) + (135 * .21) = 87.6
Feet: (35 + 7) * 1.25 = 52.5; crits for 94.5; overall average of (52.5 * .85) + (94.5 * .15) = 58.8

Increase in melee damage by increasing the number of kicks by +25 would be ((210 * 87.6) + (15 * 58.8) + (25 * 58.8)) / ((210 * 87.6) + (15 * 58.8)) = +7.6%. This is compounded with the accuracy gain for a gross melee increase of 10% to 10.3%.

2b)

Melee damage increase due to crit rate gain depends on overall average melee attack damage. Melee attacks would be comprised of 84% punches (210/250) and 16% kicks (40/250).

Using the above values for damage with the +5% crit added in, we get (87.6 * .84) + (58.8 * .16) = 82.992.

Hand and foot damage without the extra +5% crit rate would be 84.6 and 56.7, respectively. Overall average melee hit with those values would be (84.6 * .84) + (56.7 * .16) = 80.136.

Gross gain from +5% crit rate would be 3.56%.

3)

The two melee improvements can be multiplied together to gain total increase in damage from the melee side, for 13.9% to 14.2%. Scaling that to the portion of the damage that comes from melee (75%) yields a 10.4% to 10.6% net improvement.

Melee gain is additive with weaponskill gain for an overall net total of 14.3% to 14.7%.

--

For 5% haste to give that much benefit, you'd need to already have more than 60% haste. As that's not really feasible outside of a bard 2hr'ing for you, the alt config looks like it would be notably better for most situations, if the above number crunching is valid and holds true in real situations.

Errata: You also need to factor in the +12 Store TP from Usukane set. Changing TP per hit from 5.1 to 5.7 means 15 hits per weaponskill (after a full Asuran) rather than 17. At 2.25 attacks per round, Usu config would need an average of 6.67 rounds per weaponskill. The alt config would need 17 / 2.5 = 6.8 rounds per weaponskill. That's about a 2% improvement in weaponskill usage, scaled by the weaponskill damage fraction to perhaps 0.5% total damage gain. Pretty negligible effect in the overall comparison.

[Maldra]

Have any of you tried out Footwork in Ballista?

[karril]

Have any of you tried out Footwork in Ballista?

I cant imagine it being a good idea. Slower hits and slow recast on shadows doesnt seem like a great idea to me, other than to pop it for a boost in weaponskill damage/ tp regain

[Cream Soda]

Have any of you tried out Footwork in Ballista?

I cant imagine it being a good idea. Slower hits and slow recast on shadows doesnt seem like a great idea to me, other than to pop it for a boost in weaponskill damage/ tp regain

Faith baghs, yes plz in teh ballista

[shaddix]

my numbers had full usu and hybrid with the new gear about equal with bb, usu feet marginally better with haste spell, and quite a bit better with double marches and haste. this was assuming the new h2h weapons, not destroyers