Footwork - New MNK JA info

[Neosutra]

Seems like h2h still wins out by alot.. or am I doing the math wrong?

I can't wait to try how good it can perform on Salvage Chariots.

I don't see how it could be effective on salvage chariots unless you're not using mnk tanks. The upped utsu timers and the high delay alone means you won't pull hate, or if you are pulling hate you wouldn't be able to keep yourself alive against their attacks. As for dmg I'm pretty sure it's already been established that H2H most likely can win out over it. Most of these tests (I'll be honest I didn't look at them all) were done in merit ptys. In salvage and other endgame areas such as limbus and dynamis the mobs are actually weaker in terms of def/eva than merit mobs making it easier for a h2h mnk to do more dmg.

Salvage chariots are probably one of the few HNMs that a mnk can melee decently. In my opinion, switching from h2h to footwork in a situation such as that is more of a step backwards than forwards.

I'm sure this has been said before but I see footwork more of a situational ability like formless strikes. h2h dmg is so variable from mob to mob it can fall below a certain line that just using formless strikes would be more effective such as flans and slimes. Same thing with footwork. But unlike formless strikes, it takes more effort because of kick attack mods and DK mods. What I'd be interested to see is if using a kick attack + foot for faster tp gain and then switching to dunes for a strong DK is more effective than using straight dunes. If this has been discussed in the thread already lemme know

You dont get the higher utsu timer anymore Q.Q

So now its just a "how much damage am I losing for the loss in boss TP acumulation"

[Nagiwazushi]

You dont get the higher utsu timer anymore Q.Q

yea I just read that in the update notes. editing post

[Vyvian]

If I understood it correctly, the monster you fight gains tp for being hit equal to your gain +3, before subtle blow is applied, so increasing the per hit tp gain from 4.5~ to 13~ actually gives the monster more tp?

[Sanjiyan]

Dune boots drop off of a high level, 21-24h respawn NM.
Hakke habaki drop off of a tier 1 ZNM.

I certainly hope SE isn't so short sighted to make hakke kabaki, nor any of the crafted ones, better than dune boots. At best, make them equal, like wulong +1s. Otherwise there would be absolutely no reason at all to camp sabotender bailarina ever again.

As for dmg/dly of H2H vs dune boot + footwork, H2H will always be better unless a MNK can make a 6-kick build with the new 480 delay. Well, the good thing is that DK gives back 26% TP (all other 2 handers give just full TP return on the first hit only), so a 6-hit build with 480 delay will actually be 4 hits after the first WS. Sexy.

How much store TP is required for a 480 dly weapon to achieve 6 hits? And is it achievable with whatever store TP gear a MNK has access to? Only thing I can think of that has a decent amount of store TP that a MNK can wear is usukane body and.... usukane feet

[Nagiwazushi]

there's raja's ring too for +5, plus a bunch of little ones that give +1 or +2 such as brutal earring, chiv chain, etc. nobushi kyahan gives +4 but has no other real good stats.

[THEPANDA]

If I understood it correctly, the monster you fight gains tp for being hit equal to your gain +3, before subtle blow is applied, so increasing the per hit tp gain from 4.5~ to 13~ actually gives the monster more tp?

TP gained from Footwork is due to 180 store TP, thus the mob gets the same TP as a single punch.

[Sanjiyan]

If I understood it correctly, the monster you fight gains tp for being hit equal to your gain +3, before subtle blow is applied, so increasing the per hit tp gain from 4.5~ to 13~ actually gives the monster more tp?

TP gained from Footwork is due to 180 store TP, thus the mob gets the same TP as a single punch.

The old footwork, you mean. The new footwork is no longer 300 dly + 60% slow + 180 store TP, it's just 480 dly.

[THEPANDA]

Name another WS that gives that much TP return on two consecutive hits.......

[Sanjiyan]

Testing again with 10 kicks, +6 Store TP. If we are still getting +180 Store TP on top of the base 300 value of 4.7, new TP rate should be 13.4. If we are getting the raw 13 TP per hit of a 480 delay weapon, new TP rate should be 13.7.

Result of 10 kicks: 137 TP. So new base delay is in fact 480, and TP is calculated directly from that. No bonus Store TP in the background.

There.
Getting full TP return on 2 hits could just be the nature of H2H, or SE's bonus to MNKs using footwork.

[fishstix]

Is the cactar really a 21h spawn btw? I know what wiki says but when I went to get some for myself, it seemed to be more of a lottery spawn.

[aurik]

So..

(.11*299+3 = 32.89 base h2h damage + 18(destroyers) = 50.89 damage

Which is better Q.Q:

Footwork: 480 delay weapon with damage of 32.89(base h2h damage)+30(dune boots):
62.89D, 480 delay

Or dual weild 50.89 damage weapons with delay of 300...

Seems like h2h still wins out by alot.. or am I doing the math wrong?

I really hope that the base damage calculation is wrong because 62/480 is sort of like using a
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/2/23/Faussar.jpg

[evilpaul]

I'm pretty sure you need at least 29 Store TP to get a 6-hit build?

Usukane Harakami:6
Usukane Sune-ate:7
Chiv. Chain:1
Brutal Earring:1
Rajas Ring:5
Cobra Subligar:3
Cobra Mittens:3
Ecphoria Ring:1
Atilla Earring:1
White Tathlum:2

This stuff would put you over the top for that, but of course half of it's garbage compared what you could be wearing in those slots otherwise, and a bunch of it is hard to obtain.

You could get 15 from /SAM and make it work with non-retarded gear, but unless Hasso/Seigan work with Footwork now, that would be kind of lol.

EDIT: How Footwork seems to work now is kind of what I was expecting. Except I was hoping they'd give the 2h Acc bonus and make the base DMG on it ~2x normal barehand DMG so with Dunes you'd have ~88/480 which is reasonable compared to GS at 75.

[Motenten]

Seems like h2h still wins out by alot.. or am I doing the math wrong?

Your math is a bit wrong, but your conclusion still holds.

(.11*299+3 = 32.89 base h2h damage + 18(destroyers) = 50.89 damage

>>
.11 * 299 (or 292 without Faith Torque) = 32 (this is truncated, the fraction does not need to be carried any further in the calculation)
32 + 3 = 35 (you forgot to add that in your above math
35 + 18 = 53 [nominal base damage]


For Footwork, it appears to have an innate +18 dmg; I was getting max crits against starting (outside city) mobs in the 190-196 range when not wearing kick boots, which just about matches the max crit of 198 for Destroyers.

So, base dmg for Footwork would be 53 as well, plus whatever damage is added with kick boots, such as +30 for Dunes. This is also in line with a crit I had while testing with the Habaki of 260. 53 + 25 + 8 (fStr) = 86 * 3.15 = 270.


So comparing strictly on DOT, and taking a +6 (arbitrary) fStr, it would be:

53 + 6 = d59 / 348 delay = 10.17 dps * 2 attacks per round = 20.34 dps
vs
53 + 30 + 6 = d99 / 480 delay = 12.375 dps

The gap narrows as you facter in double attack/kick attack rates, but straight DOT still massively favors normal melee (figure 50% more melee damage). The question is how that balances with weaponskills.


Since haste now affects both modes equally, I'll leave that out of the calculations. I'll add Rajas and Brutal to the TP values.

TP/hit w/Destroyers = 5.1
TP/hit with Footwork = 13.7

Full Asuran return with normal melee: 16.2
Full Asuran return with Footwork: 33.4

Hits to 100 TP (normal): 17
Hits to 100 TP (Footwork): 5

With 100% accuracy:
Time to 100 TP without DAs (normal): 52.2 seconds
Time to 100 TP without DAs (Footwork): 40 seconds

Assuming full KA merits, /nin:
Time to 100 TP with DAs (normal): 43.8 seconds
Time to 100 TP with DAs* (Footwork): 32 seconds
* Using +10% DA from Brutal while using Footwork, from personal testing pre-patch

Which would indicate 30% to 37% more weaponskills while using Footwork.

If normal melee is a 75/25 melee/weaponskill split, and does 750 melee damage and 250 weaponskill damage, using Footwork would be about 500 melee damage (normal does 50% more) and 337 weaponskill damage (Footwork does 35% more), for overall 837, putting normal melee at about 20% more overall damage.

Then you'd need to factor in 10% higher attack using Footwork. It would apply to both normal melee and weaponskills. Assuming merit mobs (say greater colibri) with a level-corrected pDiff of 1.25, that puts the uncorrected cRatio at 1.575. A 10% boost puts that at 1.733, then level-corrected back to 1.408. That's an effective 12.6% increase in total damage, putting the above hypothetical at 942 damage for Footwork compared to 1000 for normal melee.

Of course that's just for standard merit-type damage using Asuran Fists. We still don't have any solid numbers from higher level stuff (gods, salvage bosses, etc) to be able to do better comparisons there, particularly for Dragon Kick vs Asuran Fists damage.


Still, they shouldn't be terribly far apart. The above quick comparison would imply Footwork is only about 6% less damage than normal melee.

Quick testing as /bst showed TP gain by mob to be between 6.5 and 6.9 per kick (6 TP with 1 kick, 13 with 2). With an innate trait of +20 and +5 from Rajas, base TP of a kick being 13, so calculated base for SB being 16, that's between 57 and 59 total Subtle Blow effect (assuming it's calculated normally, and not arbitrarily set in some other way), with an apparent +32 to +34 from Footwork. Would need assistance to see if Monk's Roll could reduce that further since I can't /bst and /cor at the same time.

Depending on how the TP reduction works, it could go as little as 2.4 TP given to the mob per kick (Monk's Roll, Penance, Footwork). Need testing to determine the limit, but when mob TP gain is a concern, that could certainly be worth giving up 6% damage.

[Judai]

Am I the only one who just thinks Footwork completely sucks? The TP gain/damage ratio/etc dont even parse close to my normal Monk. That's with adding the 71 Habaki boots and Af2 pants and shit as well. Either I'm using the ja completely wrong it it just seems to suck for me.

[miokomioko]

Everyone keeps talking about Relic pants for "Kick Attacks" bonus... What happened to all the Bahamut's lolHose? :3

[Max™]

You're using it wrong, think about something where Asuran is going to be shit, and feeding 4.5 Tp per fist vs 6 Tp per kick is going to be a factor.

[Cream Soda]

Am I the only one who just thinks Footwork completely sucks? The TP gain/damage ratio/etc dont even parse close to my normal Monk. That's with adding the 71 Habaki boots and Af2 pants and shit as well. Either I'm using the ja completely wrong it it just seems to suck for me.

I'm getting the same results.

[Cream Soda]

You're using it wrong, think about something where Asuran is going to be shit, and feeding 4.5 Tp per fist vs 6 Tp per kick is going to be a factor.

Depends on what really. With the DoT decrease, would take a considerable more amount of time to beat something like a chariot. I'd take feeding it more tp in that situation than the kill taking so much more longer.

[Max™]

How much is your Dragon Kick +1 + reduced DoT going to do vs Asuran's + normal DoT?

Factor in that you'll be dropping DK's more often than you would be AF's, as well.

[Sanjiyan]

Quick testing as /bst showed TP gain by mob to be between 6.5 and 6.9 per kick (6 TP with 1 kick, 13 with 2). With an innate trait of +20 and +5 from Rajas, base TP of a kick being 13, so calculated base for SB being 16, that's between 57 and 59 total Subtle Blow effect (assuming it's calculated normally, and not arbitrarily set in some other way), with an apparent +32 to +34 from Footwork. Would need assistance to see if Monk's Roll could reduce that further since I can't /bst and /cor at the same time. Regardless, we still get the benefit of very little TP given to the mob.

From Kinematics on lolalla.

Seems like in terms of speed of attack vs mob TP gain, footwork is better than H2H.

Also remember that footwork + dune boots is just a g.katana with 480 delay and no bonuses. Well.... a g.katana with +10% attack. I guess that's not too bad. It's no hasso though.