Footwork - New MNK JA info

[aurik]

TP/hit w/Destroyers = 5.1
TP/hit with Footwork = 13.7

Full Asuran return with normal melee: 16.2
Full Asuran return with Footwork: 33.4

Hits to 100 TP (normal): 17
Hits to 100 TP (Footwork): 5

With 100% accuracy:
Time to 100 TP without DAs (normal): 52.2 seconds
Time to 100 TP without DAs (Footwork): 40 seconds

Kinda cheap to round up to 9 here, tilts the scale towards footwork in a large way.

[SamanosukeShiva]

tested Hakke Habaki, confirmed it has no +Dmg whatsoever

the damage is same as when im using no shoes at all.

but it still give +double attack on kicks, although not as much as before the VU

[Cream Soda]

How much is your Dragon Kick +1 + reduced DoT going to do vs Asuran's + normal DoT?

Factor in that you'll be dropping DK's more often than you would be AF's, as well.

At 100% tp w/o /thf, unless you get a DA, the DK dmg rly isn't much to brag about as compared to normal vs asuran, tbh.

Edit: Also have to factor in that with all the str/vit needed, will have lower acc than an optimal geared asuran.

[Raithen]

My preliminary test still has Junkenshi Habaki (level 50) still increasing kick attack rate. I'll update with data soon.

Edit: They're definitely increasing damage over Haste shoes. They appeared to be increasing kick attack rate, but I realized I still had my Brutal Earring on. Restarting Kick Attack rate test without the earring. (For reference the attack rate was more than 5% increase, but with low data)

Now without the Brutal it appears the shoes have very little, if any increase to Kick Rate. I would guess +5 at the max (would correspond to my ~10% increase while wearing Brutal). My setup with 10 from Trait and 2 from Merits should give 12% kick, initial test was 16%(16/100). I'm guessing SE did remove all of the Kick Rate from the new shoes and my first tests were just slightly lucky with increased rate.

After 100 more kick rounds my rate dropped more, as expected. Ended up with 27/200 double kick rounds. So 4% increase from the first 100 dropped to 1.5% increase after the second 100. The increase above 12% is negligible (non-existent bonus); it's time to put these shoes back up on AH.

[LD]

Quick testing as /bst showed TP gain by mob to be between 6.5 and 6.9 per kick (6 TP with 1 kick, 13 with 2). With an innate trait of +20 and +5 from Rajas, base TP of a kick being 13, so calculated base for SB being 16, that's between 57 and 59 total Subtle Blow effect (assuming it's calculated normally, and not arbitrarily set in some other way), with an apparent +32 to +34 from Footwork. Would need assistance to see if Monk's Roll could reduce that further since I can't /bst and /cor at the same time.

Depending on how the TP reduction works, it could go as little as 2.4 TP given to the mob per kick (Monk's Roll, Penance, Footwork). Need testing to determine the limit, but when mob TP gain is a concern, that could certainly be worth giving up 6% damage.

The cap for SB is 50% and Penance is calculated after that.
13 + 3 - 50%(Full SB) - 25%(Penance) = 6
If you didn't use Penance to get 6~, then Footwork does something special.

[Judai]

How much is your Dragon Kick +1 + reduced DoT going to do vs Asuran's + normal DoT?

Factor in that you'll be dropping DK's more often than you would be AF's, as well.

My h2h dot destorys my kicks+dk. TP is beyond fcking slow on footwork as well, it's nowhere near that of my h2h. I play with the same war+nin all the time and with footwork I WS half as much as them instead of the same amount. My per kick hits are nothing spectacularly above my 2 punchs. TP isn't a factor in the slightest, MNK is already amazing at dps/tp.

So using Kick+ Feet and AF2 Pants is doing it wrong? I WS far faster punching then kicking.

imo, footwork helps shitty MNKs and does nothing for good ones.

[LD]

I thought it was for the stuff we sucked on, so what are we talking about here?

[Maxxthepenguin]

How much is your Dragon Kick +1 + reduced DoT going to do vs Asuran's + normal DoT?

Factor in that you'll be dropping DK's more often than you would be AF's, as well.

My h2h dot destorys my kicks+dk. TP is beyond fcking slow on footwork as well, it's nowhere near that of my h2h. I play with the same war+nin all the time and with footwork I WS half as much as them instead of the same amount. My per kick hits are nothing spectacularly above my 2 punchs. TP isn't a factor in the slightest, MNK is already amazing at dps/tp.

So using Kick+ Feet and AF2 Pants is doing it wrong? I WS far faster punching then kicking.

imo, footwork helps shitty MNKs and does nothing for good ones.

Testing on what?

And it still makes MNK viable on mobs that are melee unfriendly due to TP spam.

[LD]

Not to state the obvious, but I thought it'd been long since established that whatever new stuff MNK got probably wouldn't change how we fight the stuff we're already good on, i.e. anything we're allowed to melee in the first place.

[Judai]

I wasn't really paying attention to the thread. I guess I missed that the /ja was simply to gimp us. Seemed like ppl were all, omg this /ja rules when I heard them talking about it.

[Sanjiyan]

It used to be easy to decide what to wear, since haste doesn't work well on the old footwork, melee hose + habaki is a given. But now that haste works normally, what is the most optimal? 3% haste or habaki? 5% haste or kick attacks +5?

Essentially, every +kick attack is like a +double attack when in footwork (or so we assume). 10% base KA rate, +5 merits, +10% DA from /WAR = 25% chance of kicking. Add melee hose and habaki (which people are guessing +20-25% rate) that's 50-55% kick rate. Would you sacrifice 8% haste for that? What would 50% kick rate do to footwork's potential?

[Raithen]

All the new Kick Shoes have no increased attack rate it seems (No more DA+25%). The only shoes that might be worthwhile over Dune Boots while using this JA would be Hakke Habaki from Lil' Apkallu. I do not have these shoes to test nor do I intend to anytime soon. We'll have to see if Samanosuke wants to get an accurate kick rate test before deciding if they're worthwhile.

[Neosutra]

All the new Kick Shoes have no increased attack rate it seems (No more DA+25%). The only shoes that might be worthwhile over Dune Boots while using this JA would be Hakke Habaki from Lil' Apkallu. I do not have these shoes to test nor do I intend to anytime soon. We'll have to see if Samanosuke wants to get an accurate kick rate test before deciding if they're worthwhile.

Didnt someone say they did infact still add them?

[Raithen]

I said they appeared to in my initial testing. After I removed Brutal (Which seemed to be adding roughly 10% more attacks, not 5%), the rate dropped to +4% and then +1.5%. If there really is any bonus left, it's entirely negligible.

Also in regard to SE's teaser that said:

In exchange for a penalty to attack delay, the monk receives an increase to damage and attack power, as well as a bonus to the amount of TP gained per kick.

There is an actual bonus to Kick Damage. Dune boots without Footwork and just over 400 attack were hitting for 120-160 on mobs just outside Tavnazia. With Footwork active Dune boots were hitting for 160-200 (adjusted attack on gear to just over 400 again; crits up to 293 -- can anyone do the math on D here?). So whoever has been saying Kick damage is only equal to bare fist (33) plus Dunes (30) doesn't appear to be correct. Has this been said before?

[Motenten]

You'd need a base D of at least 94 to reach 293 on a 3.15 pDiff crit: 32 (skill) + 3 + 18 (Footwork bonus) + 30 (Dunes) + fStr = 83 + fStr, where fStr has to go up to at least 11, assuming the numbers are right.

And Aurik, you're partly correct. The numbers you quoted are technically accurate, since it specified 100% accuracy and no double attacks, but I think I used them to extrapolate on the one that included average rounds as well, which I need to fix.

[LD]

+18 DMG is from Footwork, huh?...You sure that's not just the Destroyers you're using? That the current weapon damage is added during Footwork, as it's been suspected since it was added?

[Raithen]

I was bare fisted. I'll post crit screens in a few minutes.

Also do we know if fSTR wearing no knuckles applies Footgear damage and calculates fSTR that way? If I'm bare fisted and boots don't calculate into fSTR then it's 0.

Edit: http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/BeeCrits.png

[Motenten]

Evidence suggests that the +18 damage is applied just from Footwork, not the weapon you're using, yes.

And fStr has to go to at least 8 if it follows standard formulas, not 0. The question is whether the other aspects (ie: weapon rank) get modified/added to while using Footwork. The +18 damage might add 2 to the limit? But that would only reach 10, and the numbers indicate 11 (or maybe one of the other values is wrong). So a bit of fuzziness there.

Edit: Note that 292 max crit is doable with +10 fStr. If you made a typo in the earlier post then that value is a bit easier to explain.

[Sechs]

* Using +10% DA from Brutal while using Footwork, from personal testing pre-patch

What? Brutal Earring 10% DA during Footwork?


As for that guy who said Footwork on Chariots would be useless. I never implied it to be better than normal meleeing, I only said I was excited about the idea of testing it, and see how it performs. Damage wise maybe it won't be that far behind, and it could reduce the amount of TP moves used by Chariots, which could come in handy in some situations. I just want to test it, and see how it works, never dared to say Footwork > Melee on chariots.

[Motenten]

Summary of testing TP given to the mob:

TP given by X hits [possible TP/hit values] with +29 SB:

1: 6
2: 13 [6.5-6.9]
3: 19 [6.5-6.6]
5: 33 [6.6-6.6]
--- 6.6

TP given by X hits [possible TP/hit values] with +25 SB:
1: 7
3: 21 [7.0-7.3]
4: 28 [7.0-7.2]
5: 35 [7.0-7.1]
5/2: 47
Other test showed mobs gaining 6.4 TP per hit on me. 2 hits on me would be 12.8 TP. For 5 hits to be 35.x TP and 5 hits + 2 against to be 47.y, x cannot be greater than 1. Therefore TP per hit must be 7.0.


TP given by X hits [possible TP/hit values] with +20 SB:
1: 7
2: 15 [7.5-7.9]
4: 30 [7.5-7.7]
5: 37 [7.5-7.5]
--- 7.5


Base TP given is 13 + 3 = 16.

It is not possible for Footwork's effect to be additive with Subtle Blow and go past the +50 limit because of the TP value given for +29 SB. +58 total Subtle Blow would give 6.7 TP per hit. +59 total Subtle Blow would give 6.5 TP per hit.

If Footwork applies a TP reduction effect similar to Penance (ie: after Subtle Blow is applied), then it would provide a TP reduction effect of -41%.

@20 SB: 16 * .8 = 12.8 - 41% = 7.5
@25 SB: 16 * .75 = 12 - 41% = 7.0
@29 SB: 16 * .71 = 11.3 - 41% = 6.6


If it stacks in a non-additive manner (multiplied effects) with Penance, then the final TP with Penance in effect (+29 SB) should be 11.3 * .59 * .75 = 4.9 per hit. 5 hits would be 24.5 TP.

Result is 24 TP after 5 hits.

[Too much of a pain to keep testing this solo, so not going to try to get precise confirmation of this right now.]

So overall:

Base TP * (1 - Subtle Blow%) * (1 - Footwork%) * (1 - Penance%)


Given Monk's Roll, hitting max Subtle Blow is easy. With Rajas + Melee Gloves, anything higher than a 2 other than an unlucky roll will do. 6 and higher and you don't need the Melee Gloves.

So for normal melee:
4.9 TP per hit base with Destroyers.
+3 = 7.9
+50 Subtle Blow = 3.9 per hit
+Penance = 2.9 per hit

With Footwork:
13 TP per hit base
+3 = 16
+50 Subtle Blow = 8
-41% Footwork reduction = 4.7
+Penance = 3.5 per kick


TP given per 100 damage (estimate, 1.0 pDiff for normal melee, 1.1 for Footwork):
Normal: 5
Footwork: 3.5

TP given per minute of melee (assume Haste + double March + 18% in gear, Brutal + full KA merits, max Subtle Blow, 100% Penance coverage):
Normal: ~143.5
Footwork: ~70


With 2 monks meleeing something like one of the Salvage chariots, with normal melee you could expect a mob to reach 100 TP every 21 seconds; with both using Footwork, it would be every 43 seconds. Then of course revise that according to mobs' TP holding patterns (don't use at 100% all the time) and extra TP given by spells cast on it.

In general, though, using Footwork should generate about one-half to two-thirds the number of TP moves as normal melee.

What? Brutal Earring 10% DA during Footwork?

Yes, per my testing a few pages back. Raithen saw the same thing a few posts up.


Also, on the idea that Footwork gives +18 dmg, that's taken from Footwork without kick shoes seeming to reach the same max crit value as normal melee with Destroyers. However if it doesn't improve the max fStr value possible, it could also be taken as a flat +20 dmg with no fStr mod. So total damage with Dunes would be 3 + 32 (skill) + 20 (Footwork) + 30 (Dunes) + [0..8]fStr = 85 + [0..8]fStr. I'll probably assume this is the proper formula until someone can figure out the fStr issue.