Footwork - New MNK JA info

[Burnsy]

Dune Boots DO seem to have a great effect on DK's damage

On DK or all WSs?
only tried DK and Asuran, with and without Dune, DK was most dramatic

Because if you noticed a difference only in DK it could mean they made DK formula calculated in a different way during Footwork, and just that.
If it affects all WSs, it probably means something like the one I said in my previous post is happening. I.e. WS damage is calculated normally but your Feet Damage + Boots damage (if you have kick enhancing boots) is calculated as base weapon damage, instead than base fist + h2h weapon damage.
I really can't say without further, hardcore mathmatical testing, running multiple parses, making/reading aurik's rediculous formulas I don't understand, etc

Furthermore, did you notice if going barehanded/equipped with weapon affected in any way your damage or your kick attack speed?

Never deequiped any main weapon, used Destroyers full time, just had about 17% gear haste (BB/Turban/Shura Togi/melee hose/dune/brutal/mermans/faithT/Raja's/WoodsmanR) and RDM haste, I didnt count, cause it was like 11:30 and I was already falling asleep, but I swear I kicked faster than 8 seconds, it was more like 5-6

Also, I've always assumed that every H2H WS was intended to be at least 2 hits because H2H works slightly differently from dual wield, where you have 2 independent attacks from 2 weapons merged into an attack turn.
In H2H you have one single attack turn made by two swings. The result is almost the same, just a subtle difference I'd say.
But I wonder if with Footwork, which is an attack turn made by a single attack (kick) they bothered to change WS and made the 2hitters into 1 hit? I don't think so, why am I askiing it...

They didnt, MNK's "single" hit weapon skills all can do 5-10% tp return naturally, implying 2 hits.... In playing with DK, I recieved a 13%-26% tp return, with damage varying greatly between the 2 (13%= 500-700ish, 26% 900-1100ish)

LD - I completely agree, but unfortunately no one wants to camp Adamantoise/Aspi anymore... and maintenance kinda f'd me outta HNM times being on EST and working for a living >.>
lolturtles

Ninja edit: No mention of broken JA in emergency maintenance notes, looks like we have to figure out how to make this work best for now! 43% Asurans go!

[Shassira]

Also, we need to clarify what happens during counter and during hundred fists. During counter you see a "punch" animation, but how is the damage calculated? According to the H2H currently equipped? Or according to the Kick damage?

Without doing any kind of math and just watching the numbers, seems very clear to me that counters are based on h2h dmg. I can see the difference when i have no weapon or weapon on and counter.

And for hundred fists? Same question. Shows punches animation, and from what I've seen it seems normal H2H damage, not kick damage.

It's h2h normaly aplied. Notice how your extra atk disappears when you use HF and it doesn't come back until HF is off. Basicly, HF seems to override any effect Footwork has.

And I'm a bit concerned about the TP you give to mobs. Someone said they give much more TP than expected? That way don't we lose the "advantage" of having one single powerful attack every turn, instead of many fists giving a load of TP to monsters?

I don't understand this concern. I posted the TP given to monsters per hit and it was lower than the TP given to you per kick. I'm willing to wild guess here that the TP given to the monster is that of your h2h delay while you get the TP from your kick delay. In the test i made, i was getting 13 TP per hit, which is in corcondance with the 480 delay thing and the monster was getting 6% TP per hit which is more akin to whatever i did with h2h. Either way, it was directly affected by Subtle Blow. I didn't bother with the math and won't bother because i've lost interest in this obscure JA. To me it just seems that the benefit is the TP gain you get vs the TP you give to the mod; I just can't see any other benefit as the damage doesn't seem to be offseting well for me on the lower mobs i've tried.
Hope someone finds some real use apart from flashy numbers on a WS and merit mobs Still hoping for those high defense monster tests to find the niche for this.

[gandorf]

Footwork counts as blunt damage. I was fighting a few random undead before in eastern desert and was doing 140-150+ a kick.

[Sechs]

It's h2h normaly aplied. Notice how your extra atk disappears when you use HF and it doesn't come back until HF is off. Basicly, HF seems to override any effect Footwork has.

Delay increase included I bet. But yet I saw someone claiming Kicks proccing during Hundred Fists were producing a higher TP return for that kick? Or maybe it was just a placebo.
Not like it's really easy to spot TP return correctly for every blow during Hundred Fists, I'm afraid.

I don't understand this concern.

Thanks for the clarification.

Too bad I can't do some tests on my own and won't be able to until tomorrow. I'm still wondering if kicks during Footwork are really independant from your equipped H2H weapon's +delay and +damage value.
This could open new options concerning the weapon you equip (something with shitty delay/damage, but good bonuses for example, should look at a list, maybe there's some weapon I forgot about because useless for normal H2H due to does Damage/Delay values).
Also, I'm really looking forward to see more tests concerning these forementioned "diminished return" on haste. I'm having troubles to understand how much people posting those comments were talking just about Utsu recast, or even about normal Kick delay (which is currently supposed to be 480, i.e. H2H base delay without martial arts).

Also looking forward for some tests on high def mobs (which I think it's the reason SE gave us this JA?) and the new Feet equipment.

[Spekkio]

i'm guessing i know the answer to this and that it's no, but has anyone attempted using either an add effect h2h weapon like the boreas cesti (not that you would, just as a testing tool) or more interestingly, faith thingiesican'tspell?

also, it was my understanding that +kick attacks gear increased the proc rate and not the damage. only dune boots, kung fu, and wulong series had any effect on the damage of them. as such, wouldn't dune boots effectively always outparse the new +kick boots since they add a massive sum to your base damage?

honestly, this seems quite attractive, even if only used for ws. once every 5 min, hit your footwork button, plunk on the dune boots, asuran, pop it off and switch back to normal h2h gear. also, for normal TP, consider that each double attack is effectively worth twice as much (assuming 2 fists on an h2h round is equal to one footwork kick) so that's equal to a doubling of your double attack potency, even if haste has no impact. while i'm not well enough versed in melee setups to be in any way authoritative on this, it sure does seem like there's a potential for this JA once we recognize how to gear for it and apply it.

Edit: has anyone looked into martial knuckles (if you can even find any) to see if the TP bonus carries over to footwork WS? while you're not going to see much of a boost on asuran i'd think (the dogma is the acc modifier on it is meh at best, right?) it might produce some decent numbers on DK since you no longer care about weapon damage if you're keeping footwork up most of the time. maybe make wagh thingsican'tspell palatable too, since they'd give acc/attk w/o hampering damage or delay though you do piss away 6% crit.

[Builttolast]

I'm still wondering if kicks during Footwork are really independant from your equipped H2H weapon's +delay and +damage value.

They have always been independent and I don't see anything to indicate this has changed. Damage is less without dune boots, equal to no boots. The +DMG comes from the hidden kick attack + trait on the dune boots. Your damage will not change if you change H2H weapons, nor will your delay.


On another note, Dragon Kick double attacked @ 100% TP for 36 TP return and 1449 damage on a collibri

[Sechs]

i'm guessing i know the answer to this and that it's no, but has anyone attempted using either an add effect h2h weapon like the boreas cesti (not that you would, just as a testing tool) or more interestingly, faith thingiesican'tspell?

Faith Baghnaks? I could try that but I'm locked in my office ;_;
I guess they won't affect Kicks.
More "simple" stats like +acc, +att etc should affect kicks tho.

also, it was my understanding that +kick attacks gear increased the proc rate and not the damage.

You're making confusion between "Kick Attacks +X", a bonus present on Strike Subligar, Melee Hose, Melee Hose +1 and Bahamut's Hose which affects the proc rate % of your Kick attacks (which can still proc, up to once per attack turn, even during Footwork).
The hidden bonus on Kung Fu Shoes, Wulong Shoes, Wulong Shoes+1 and Dune Boots affects the damage of your kicks (kinda like the "+damage" stat from H2H weapons, I think).
The "Enhances Kick Attacks" stat on the 7 new feet equipment added this patch probably has an effect similar to the forementioned and pre-existing 4 feet options.
I highly doubt it will affect kick proc rate, but that's just my personal guessing of course.
I just wonder if there will be anything more effective than Dune Boots.
On one hand I'm excited to have a new equip to look for, on the other hand I'm a bit frustrated because I will have to work months/years to manage to get it (just when I finally completed my Usukane Sune-ate, so yeah, I'm torn apart between happiness and frustration)

I'm just sad for the terribly increased utsu timers, I think this could have been an insanely useful option for tanking-like situation where you use monk (Chariots in Salvage, for example).
I dunno, maybe with a subjob other than /NIN you could still perform good with stoneskinga, phalanxga and different equip.
I guess I'll be waiting for comments from high-end people to really understand the impact of this JA in such situations.

[Burnsy]

...kick DMG + trait on the dune boots. Your damage will not change if you change H2H weapons, nor will your delay.


On another note, Dragon Kick double attacked @ 100% TP for 36 TP return and 1449 damage on a collibri

fixed, for keeping kick atk/kick dmg effects separate, confusion and all


and thx for figuring out that DA can still proc while footwork active, although I didnt see any 3 kick rounds last night during my party, I think only DA or KA can proc in 1 attack round

Edit: I think this JA is supposed to break MNKs out of the trap /nin is, esp in large group fights like einherjar, HNMs etc.


I don't see how it could be that applicable in salvage, cause ya, you need to be sitting on those utsu timers... buffs would help, but half the problem is that you're not constantly generating that enimity with the hands... thus chariot likes to go homing missle the WHM spamming cures on ur silly elvaan head...

hmmm penance+footwork? could we check the tp gain on mobs with that and subtle blow?

[Sechs]

Damage is less without dune boots

Well I always thought Kick damage was the same has hand to hand damage (without weapon).
But since you can't equip a "weapon" on your feet... it will be less when you have one on your hands.
Dune Boots are, from this point of view, like a "weapon" with +damage but no +delay (Kick attacks do not work under the rule of "delay" after all, they just have a % to proc every attack turn).
But this was for the Kick Attack special attack, which procs every attack turn and can proc even during Footwork.
What happens to the "normal" kicks you deal, once every attack turn, while under the effect of Footwork? (which I haven't asked before, but I guess it's dispellable by mass-dispell moves?)

I was just wondering if there was some sort of relation between your weapon delay/damage and your normal kicks during Footwork, or no relation at all.
According to this, it may differ the kind of weapon we want to equip main hand, no?

I agree with you maybe it's stupid from me to even think SE could have taken things SO DEEP with Footwork.

On another note, Dragon Kick double attacked @ 100% TP for 36 TP return and 1449 damage on a collibri

Pardon my noobness again but this is interesting.
Normal TP return from kicks during Footwork is supposed to be 13% TP per kick.
Since Dragon Kick is normally (outside of Footwork) a 2-hit WS, you should "normally" get 26% TP.
A double attack added 10% to that, you're saying this, right?

[Builttolast]

fixed, for keeping kick atk/kick dmg effects separate, confusion and all

I should have been specific yes, I understand the difference but it can cause confusion

and thx for figuring out that DA can still proc while footwork active, although I didnt see any 3 kick rounds last night during my party, I think only DA or KA can proc in 1 attack round

It can proc on WS as normal, but as for kicking 2 times per round I do not know the cause of that, whether it is from kick attacks frequency (on melee hose and merits) or from double attack (though it procs without any DA equipment or /war). We can only assume it is from kick attacks frequency and that it cannot double attack (or if it can DA it is still limited to 2 kicks per round).

[Burnsy]

Damage is less without dune boots

Well I always thought Kick damage was the same has hand to hand damage (without weapon).
But since you can't equip a "weapon" on your feet... it will be less when you have one on your hands.
Dune Boots are, from this point of view, like a "weapon" with +damage but no +delay (Kick attacks do not work under the rule of "delay" after all, they just have a % to proc every attack turn).
But this was for the Kick Attack special attack, which procs every attack turn and can proc even during Footwork.
What happens to the "normal" kicks you deal, once every attack turn, while under the effect of Footwork? (which I haven't asked before, but I guess it's dispellable by mass-dispell moves?)

I was just wondering if there was some sort of relation between your weapon delay/damage and your normal kicks during Footwork, or no relation at all.
According to this, it may differ the kind of weapon we want to equip main hand, no?

I agree with you maybe it's stupid from me to even think SE could have taken things SO DEEP with Footwork.

On another note, Dragon Kick double attacked @ 100% TP for 36 TP return and 1449 damage on a collibri

Pardon my noobness again but this is interesting.
Normal TP return from kicks during Footwork is supposed to be 13% TP per kick.
Since Dragon Kick is normally (outside of Footwork) a 2-hit WS, you should "normally" get 26% TP.
A double attack added 10% to that, you're saying this, right?

Store TP isnt kicking in all the time or didnt kick in fully across the 3 hits, or he kicked immediatly after the WS, and didn't see it, or he missed a hit and somehow DA kicked in, theres a TON of possibilites... Delay on your hands probably isnt going to effect anything, people in the thread have tested it, and it makes no difference


Built - I'm pretty sure that w/o /war or brutal its just the natural Kick attacks trait proc, with melee/baha/strike and merits 10% more often is pretty sick, maybe FW has a hidden effect to increase this trait more... but what I'm postulating is that when both DA and KA+ are present and FW is active, that KA/DA will proc as one or the other and never both. I had several 2 kick rounds last night in merit, with brutal and melee hose on, so I have to guess my above statement has some merit... only real way to check is to get someone w/o kick merits, kick freq+ gear, and have them sub war..... and who hasn't merited kicks already?

[Builttolast]

Well I always thought Kick damage was the same has hand to hand damage (without weapon).
But since you can't equip a "weapon" on your feet... it will be less when you have one on your hands.
Dune Boots are, from this point of view, like a "weapon" with +damage but no +delay (Kick attacks do not work under the rule of "delay" after all, they just have a % to proc every attack turn).
But this was for the Kick Attack special attack, which procs every attack turn and can proc even during Footwork.
What happens to the "normal" kicks you deal, once every attack turn, while under the effect of Footwork? (which I haven't asked before, but I guess it's dispellable by mass-dispell moves?)

I was just wondering if there was some sort of relation between your weapon delay/damage and your normal kicks during Footwork, or no relation at all.
According to this, it may differ the kind of weapon we want to equip main hand, no?

I agree with you maybe it's stupid from me to even think SE could have taken things SO DEEP with Footwork.

Kicks have the same DMG as your unarmed H2H yes. If you unequip boots and H2H weapons they should be the same. Dune boots are +DMG weapons for your feet, as much as destroyers are +DMG weapons for your hands. The 2 are completely independent of each other. I tested damage with and without dune boots, the dune boots won out by a large margin. I tested with and without H2H equipped and saw no difference. The delay never changed between any of the tests (and I have 22% haste all the time, even changing to melee hose and optical hat and dropping 10% haste makes no noticeable difference to the delay).

On another note, Dragon Kick double attacked @ 100% TP for 36 TP return and 1449 damage on a collibri

Pardon my noobness again but this is interesting.
Normal TP return from kicks during Footwork is supposed to be 13% TP per kick.
Since Dragon Kick is normally (outside of Footwork) a 2-hit WS, you should "normally" get 26% TP.
A double attack added 10% to that, you're saying this, right?

There was no damage taken by myself in that period (the mob used a non physical TP move and didn't attack until 2 seconds later) and my next attack was not until after that. I got 36TP return from it as monk/whm with brutal earring equipped. I'm saying what I saw.

[Builttolast]

what I'm postulating is that when both DA and KA+ are present and FW is active, that KA/DA will proc as one or the other and never both.

I came to the same conclusion. Either can proc but there is a limit on 2 kicks per round which means if 1 does the other will be ignored.

[Burnsy]

ok so we know gear haste has little to no effect on delay.... thanks for nerfing my BB SE...



what about spell haste and march... maybe this is truely th3 /drk zerg tool of the future >:D

[Builttolast]

I was hasted by a friend during campaign and saw no major decrease in delay. I expect it is minimal if any. I have dropped all 22% gear haste and not noticed anything (but I just eyeball it). Again it's minor if any difference at all. March I haven't tested but I expect like haste it will be negligable.

[THEPANDA]

Seeing some of the L68 Habakis being crafted here at the AH in WG.

Anyone know how they enhance kick attacks?

[Burnsy]

no, go buy one for me, move to ragnarok, trade me, and I'll test them out for you and get back to you in about a month

[Cream Soda]

Any boost to acc at all?

[THEPANDA]

no, go buy one for me, move to ragnarok, trade me, and I'll test them out for you and get back to you in about a month

They're initially ~200k, so should be very cheap to craft.

Only have 130k on me.

[Burnsy]

Any boost to acc at all?

nope, stack it with gear and focus