New BLM Equip

[pchan]

Ok guys don't need tests to know what kind of damage you'll do. The magic damage formula is accuracte. The fact that solitaire's cape can outdo prism cape in some situations and combination of INT/MAB has nothing surprising. I can post screenshots of yigit hands outdoing A gloves, even though most of the time, A gloves will be superior to it (superior being +1 or 2 dmg on a tier 4 lol). Let's assume you do puddings (89 INT, easy tot est it out).


Let's examine different setups


Elvaan BLM/RDM (INT66)
My gear : HQ staff, buggard strap+1, phantom, morrigan 5/5, uggalepih, moldavite, INT5 ring, sorcerer ring, prism, penitent.

Counting : INT 66+47, MAB 32(trait)+38+10(merits)

blizzard 4=(506+2*(66+47-89 +5 ))*| 1.15 *| (1+ (32+38+10)/100) *|1.25
=1457
Thunder 4=(541+2*(66+47-89))*| 1.15 *| (1+ (32+38+10)/100) *|1.25
=1522

If you swap prism cape and solitaire's cape : INT 66+43, MAB 32(trait)+10(merit)+40

blizzard4 =1452
Thunder4=1518

With Gleenman's the diffenrence is even bigger ...INT 66+48,mab 32+38+10
blizzard4=1462
thunder4=1527

Just computed this into Maple, with +INT varying from 0 to 60 and +mab from 0 to 60, and Gleenman always out performs Solitaire with +9.5 damage on blizzard4 and 8.7 on thunder 4 on average.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Elvaan BLM/RDM (INT66)

Brutal

[Tarage]

Does this seriously need it's own topic? Can't you talk about this in any of the other, say, five topics about the update? Maybe in the 'new equipment' thread?

I'm sorry but if we are going to be at all logical about this, this thread needs not exist.

[Olo]

Ok guys don't need tests to know what kind of damage you'll do.

You are obviously mistaken. If in fact Feielle's tests are to be believed, then the Sol. cape has a hidden trait that boosts damage. It is just that simple. You calculated things out for your setup but not the one that was used in the tests.. as such, your calculations are worthless for the purposes of this discussion.

[Suiram]

Ok guys don't need tests to know what kind of damage you'll do.

You are obviously mistaken. If in fact Feielle's tests are to be believed, then the Sol. cape has a hidden trait that boosts damage. It is just that simple. You calculated things out for your setup but not the one that was used in the tests.. as such, your calculations are worthless for the purposes of this discussion.

What pchan means I think is that since the magic damage formula will give you the exact expect damage under controlled conditions, you're better off testing a hidden effect on a target with known stats and comparing the calculated damage against the actual damage, rather than trying to just compare two pieces under uncontrolled conditions. Granted, if you want to know which is better in a given situation, just trying it out with one or the other and comparing the damage is the most straightforward way to go about it, but that won't tell you if it's due to hidden effects, or due to the the stats of the mob making relative bonuses from certain pieces stronger than in other situations.

I tried to salvage Feielle's test in this regard by testing out wamoura princes myself to see if I could ascertain their MDB/TMDA and backsolve for their INT and compare against Feielle's data, and while the curled/uncurled thing is straightforward enough (192/256 TMDA while curled, no change uncurled), they seem to have an additional MDB change that makes the formula not work out exactly. I'll keep trying to figure out what it is, but in the meantime a much more straightforward test would be against a lowbie mob, like a bee or a rabbit outside city. Nuke a Tier 4 without staff or cape on a neutral day so that it's easy to find the INT if you state your own INT and MAB, add in the solitaire's cape to check if it gives the reported bonus.

Edit: Hmm okay, it would seem that the particular wamoura prince I tested on has 51 INT and no MDB, so I'm not sure what to make of Feille's numbers, as they don't even work out. What hands were you using, or no hand armor at all? I still think the best solution would be testing against low lvl mob, or even an attercop outside whitegate.

[Feielle]

Ok, I just got this thing last night at 11pm, then went to help other LS mates with a few other ZNMs. I realize my tests aren't perfect thus far, but I was really just trying to see what it could do in the short run and if there was any evidence to the claim of it beating out a Gleeman's cape. Lets see here....

Repeat any tests in and out of a party please?

I'll give this a try tonight. Another BLM in my LS speculated the hidden effect (if any) may be active if you're the only BLM in the party.

Are you saying it was on 2 different monsters?

No. This was just a different Wamoura Prince. 1207, 1207, 1205, and 602 were all on the same mob.

The INT on princes varies by 1-2 iirc. I'd try puddings in and out of a party together?

Possibly, but I worry about their added magic damage borking things up.

Ok guys don't need tests to know what kind of damage you'll do. The magic damage formula is accuracte.

Initially, I would agree with you. When I plugged in these numbers for myself into the damage formula, I didn't see any reason to look into getting the cape. However, there have been some comments floating about that it has a hidden stat boost possibly when you're soloing or other conditions are met. The purpose of my testing is to determine if that exists. First I needed to see if it would outperform a prism cape at all. It did under certain circumstances, so now I'll get a bit more detailed with it.

Can't you talk about this in any of the other, say, five topics about the update? Maybe in the 'new equipment' thread?

You waited until the third page to complain about this?

Hmm okay, it would seem that the particular wamoura prince I tested on has 51 INT and no MDB, so I'm not sure what to make of Feille's numbers, as they don't even work out. What hands were you using, or no hand armor at all?

Zenith Mitts. Sorry I must have left that out. I know there are 2 schools of though surrounding DINT and stacking INT. I was under the assumption that the only way to break the INT cap (at which point INT becomes a lower damage return) was to nuke lower level mobs. If this is the case, wouldn't performing these tests on Ronfaure bunnies distort the numbers a bit?

Things to do:
Perform tests on different mobs
See if testing can be done without weather active
Test different tier nukes
Test in and out of party on same mob family/area/day

I'll let you guys know what I find out.

[Shuemue]

Does this seriously need it's own topic? Can't you talk about this in any of the other, say, five topics about the update? Maybe in the 'new equipment' thread?

I'm sorry but if we are going to be at all logical about this, this thread needs not exist.

This is a discussion board, and let's be honest, this is more advanced than your inability to secure your account.

[Starr]

Does this seriously need it's own topic? Can't you talk about this in any of the other, say, five topics about the update? Maybe in the 'new equipment' thread?

I'm sorry but if we are going to be at all logical about this, this thread needs not exist.

Wasn't there rules made about back-seat modding? I'm enjoying the read, nice to know a once thought useless item is equal or occasionally greater than what most people use currently and for anyone upcoming BLM/RDM/SCH without access to Gleeman's or Ixion's.

[Liseth]

Ok guys don't need tests to know what kind of damage you'll do.

You are obviously mistaken. If in fact Feielle's tests are to be believed, then the Sol. cape has a hidden trait that boosts damage. It is just that simple. You calculated things out for your setup but not the one that was used in the tests.. as such, your calculations are worthless for the purposes of this discussion.

I tested Solitaire Cape and Prism outside of Windy on the same day, on the same set of mobs (lvl0 Tiny Mandragora) in and out of a party. From what I could tell there is no latent whatsoever. For tier 4 nukes (Blizz 4 and Thunder 4), the damage was exactly the same. For tier 3 -agas (Blizzaga 3 and Thundaga 3, single target mind you) Solitaire cape pushed above Prism EXACTLY seven (7) damage both in and out of party. For AM2 (Freeze 2 and Burst 2) I got seven (7) additional damage as well from the Solitaire cape on these spells in and out of party. For tier 3s nukes and lower Prism Cape outperformed Solitaire with the exception of Blizzard 3 which is directly affected by Aquilo's Staff INT-wise. It would seem that for AM 2 and -aga 3 Solitaire's is better than Prism Cape, though I would still lean towards using Prism over Solitaire's on higher level mobs as your INT and the mob's INT seems to factor somewhat into doing better damage. Gear wise I used HQ staves, Morrigan's Robe, Novio, Moldy, Prudence Torque so on and so forth for this. I'd be interested to know what someone with a Genie Weskit using a similar setup would get.

[Suiram]

Zenith Mitts. Sorry I must have left that out. I know there are 2 schools of though surrounding DINT and stacking INT. I was under the assumption that the only way to break the INT cap (at which point INT becomes a lower damage return) was to nuke lower level mobs. If this is the case, wouldn't performing these tests on Ronfaure bunnies distort the numbers a bit?

The reason I said a Tier IV spell is so that you wouldn't hit the inflection point on dINT. You never hit that point even on the lowest level targets after the early/mid tier II spells. While it's true that when you are dealing with close comparisons such as this one between INT and MAB, MAB starts to outperform INT as the mob gets lower INT, a common misconception (that's been coming up a lot lately) is that you are hitting this point but this is not why. The reason is because you are adding a fixed increase to an already large number, as for instance when the base damage of your spell is 500 and you add 20 base damage, that's a 4% increase in damage, whereas if the base damage is 700 and you add 20, it's only a 2.8% increase.

Also, it would not matter if you hit an inflection point if your INT stayed constant throughout. All you want to know is if the MAB bonus on the cape always reflects the amount listed in the description. For that it does not matter how you arrived at the base damage, only that it is known. So you could cast Stone 1 on a level 0 mob (which would be capped well below your dINT) but you would still be able to calculate the difference in MAB from adding the cape.

[Olo]

Also, it would not matter if you hit an inflection point if your INT stayed constant throughout. All you want to know is if the MAB bonus on the cape always reflects the amount listed in the description.

You are assuming that the hidden effect, if there is one, would be more MAB. What if the hidden effect is +2 INT? Testing on Bunnies in West Ron. is not a good test for this kind of thing.

I like testing on puddings in mount z because thats what i most often find myself nuking on BLM, i can always count on very consistant predictable numbers there. The magic damage bonus will help to amplify any differences and make them stand out more.

The point of the thread is "is this cape worth getting?". Is it worth taking up a slot in my moghouse? If it turns my 2333 Freeze II on ice day on puddings into a 2345 Freeze II on ice day on puddings, its worth getting to me.

Would i bring it to Bahamut II or any other INT sensitive NM?... probably not... but that doesn't mean its worthless.

[Suiram]

While it may have sounded that way, I'm not assuming that the hidden effect is necessarily more MAB, in fact, that's why I said to use a T4 spell. I was trying to say, however, that if the hidden effect--should one exist--was more MAB, then it wouldn't matter if you hit the inflection point or not.

The point is that if you want to test "what is going to give me higher epeen on puddings" then by all means, get the cape and try both in your biggest epeen gear on puddings (although you could easily calculate it, too). If you're trying to test something specific, then make a real test. That's what Feille was attempting to do, and I was just offering suggestions for a straightforward way to arrive at the answer.

[Liseth]

It's not something you would use 100% of the time. It's a situational piece at best (probably for exp. purposes). Is it worth getting? Why not? I mean, technically it's free so take that for what you will.

[Feielle]

It's not something you would use 100% of the time. It's a situational piece at best (probably for exp. purposes). Is it worth getting? Why not? I mean, technically it's free so take that for what you will.

This is what I'm thinking. Good cape if you don't currently have (or are working towards) Ixion/Gleeman's.

I fall into that category, so I'll probably be using this on XP-INT-level mobs (sea farming, etc.)

I'll still be playing around with it when I get home though, just to make sure.

[Tarage]

Does this seriously need it's own topic? Can't you talk about this in any of the other, say, five topics about the update? Maybe in the 'new equipment' thread?

I'm sorry but if we are going to be at all logical about this, this thread needs not exist.

This is a discussion board, and let's be honest, this is more advanced than your inability to secure your account.

Wow, you're a jackass. I'll enjoy the day you get your account stolen as well.

Wasn't there rules made about back-seat modding? I'm enjoying the read, nice to know a once thought useless item is equal or occasionally greater than what most people use currently and for anyone upcoming BLM/RDM/SCH without access to Gleeman's or Ixion's.

Back-seat modding my ass. I was just suggesting that this conversation could easily take place in one of the other existing threads. I mean hell, should I just randomly create a 'New SMN Equip because we don't have one?

[Shuemue]

Wow, you're a jackass. I'll enjoy the day you get your account stolen as well.

You aren't the first to say that, I doubt you'll be the last either. I'm not worried.

Back-seat modding my ass. I was just suggesting that this conversation could easily take place in one of the other existing threads. I mean hell, should I just randomly create a 'New SMN Equip because we don't have one?

Actually yes, if a significant amount of gear is released for SMN, go ahead. That's what a discussion forum is for you twat.

[Tarage]

Wow, you're a jackass. I'll enjoy the day you get your account stolen as well.

You aren't the first to say that, I doubt you'll be the last either. I'm not worried.

Back-seat modding my ass. I was just suggesting that this conversation could easily take place in one of the other existing threads. I mean hell, should I just randomly create a 'New SMN Equip because we don't have one?

Actually yes, if a significant amount of gear is released for SMN, go ahead. That's what a discussion forum is for you twat.

Define significant. By your logic, hell, we should have a topic for every job. And then, we should have different sub-topics for pets as well!

[Onorgul]

Which is worse: a separate thread about new gear aimed at a specific job, or derailing such a thread for a constant ego-wank about why one person thinks the thread shouldn't exist? Please note that this is a rhetorical question.

[President]

Less talk about the usefulness of this topic, more talk about a possible hidden effect on Solitaire cape.

[Tarage]

Less talk about the usefulness of this topic, more talk about a possible hidden effect on Solitaire cape.

Oh, great, now speculation. Didn't realize I wandered into Spam.