Supertanking after 6/9/08

[Baelorn]

Is it still possible?

I've done it many times before to skill up Guard but this time every single mob I aggro'd went after my healer after the first cure went off. I tried it multiple times(with them in and out of the PT).

Didn't do anything stupid like hitting them.

[Wulfgang]

Probably not, but did you have anything equipped with a spikes effect like Rasetsu Samue?

[Baelorn]

Probably not, but did you have anything equipped with a spikes effect like Rasetsu Samue?

Nope.

I'm hearing that Snarl isn't working the way it was before the update either so I'm thinking SE played with the hate system somehow.

[solsovly]

Probably not, but did you have anything equipped with a spikes effect like Rasetsu Samue?

Nope.

I'm hearing that Snarl isn't working the way it was before the update either so I'm thinking SE played with the hate system somehow.

I've only had a short chance to play on BST after the update. Didn't really notice anything unusual, but I rarely had hate over the tanks. Any idea what is going on?

[Baelorn]

Here is what he said about Snarl:

Something is wrong with Snarl also, if I have multiple agro from monsters and I use Snarl, some of the monsters stay on me, even after I selected each one and went through smacking them like I always did.

So I guess he was solo and aggro'd a few things. Went through each one and hit them to get solid hate and then used Snarl and no luck.

Looks like I'm going to have to finish /DNC and drag along a RDM instead of a WHM.

[Judai]

Works fine. Killed Medusa last night and supertanked the 4 Adds with a PLD/BLU, Mages curebombing never got hate or hit.

[Baelorn]

Works fine. Killed Medusa last night and supertanked the 4 Adds with a PLD/BLU, Mages curebombing never got hate or hit.

That's odd..I tried it four times and other people are having problems too. Maybe it is a random glitch.

[Kaylia]

Works fine. Killed Medusa last night and supertanked the 4 Adds with a PLD/BLU, Mages curebombing never got hate or hit.

Pld even used the new spike move. Scared the fuck out of me, but we didnt pull hate healing him.


On topic, is it posssible the mobs you were using have "alliance" hate like darter?

[Suiram]

Alliance hate doesn't matter, unless you are suggesting that they changed how this works only on alliance-hate mobs in the patch, but pre-patch I've kited Kirin, Prudence 2nd copy, and other alliance-hate mobs with supertank method.

[Amok]

Works fine. Killed Medusa last night and supertanked the 4 Adds with a PLD/BLU, Mages curebombing never got hate or hit.

Pld even used the new spike move. Scared the fuck out of me, but we didnt pull hate healing him.

Abusable? can you kill stuff with just Reprisal damage and never get hate curing? sounds very broken. If reprisal damage doesn't give TP, it's even more broken.

[Kaylia]

Works fine. Killed Medusa last night and supertanked the 4 Adds with a PLD/BLU, Mages curebombing never got hate or hit.

Pld even used the new spike move. Scared the fuck out of me, but we didnt pull hate healing him.

Abusable? can you kill stuff with just Reprisal damage and never get hate curing? sounds very broken. If reprisal damage doesn't give TP, it's even more broken.

Most likely, since all 4 lamia hitting him were at 85% by the end of the fight. Unless he kept hate through cure/ja alone, I would say you could kill something without ever getting hate.

Alliance hate doesn't matter, unless you are suggesting that they changed how this works only on alliance-hate mobs in the patch, but pre-patch I've kited Kirin, Prudence 2nd copy, and other alliance-hate mobs with supertank method.

Yes, I was suggesting there might have been a change on alliance hate. If super tanking worked for us, it should have worked for them normally (unless they failled at it).

Under other circumstance, I would probably think they screwed up, but they did change a few thing last update concerning enmity. I pulled hate off campaign npc with cure for example, and knowing how often SE mess up on update, it wouldnt surprise me if it had an impact on stuff like this.

[Amok]

Which update do you mean? Campaign NPC's following normal enmity rules was an announced change a while back iirc.

I'm really getting confused by what people call alliance hate. I used to think I had enmity and aggro rules pretty well figured out after some testing on normal mobs, but super tanking something that has alliance hate seems contradictory to me. Unless of course the super-tank was being cured by people OUTSIDE the alliance, because in that case it would still make sense to me.

So for my own education, please correct the following definitions for me if I get them wrong:
Hate list: a term used to describe the list of characters (associated with a single mob) that a mob maintains an enmity value for.

Alliance hate: a term used to describe a mob's behavior on aggro when it puts all alliance members of the aggro'ing/popping alliance on it's hate list with 0 enmity.

Super tanking: Tanking a mob by being its current target without being on its hate list. As a result actions by other characters doesn't generate enmity or put them on the hate list.

That's the way I've always understood it. That's why alliance hate and super-tanking are mutually exclusive in my mind.
PS. Pardon the academic nature of htis post

[Chen]

if you just get aggro and dont touch the mobs = super tanking = no hate for cure bombers

& its still working.

[solsovly]

Here is what he said about Snarl:

Something is wrong with Snarl also, if I have multiple agro from monsters and I use Snarl, some of the monsters stay on me, even after I selected each one and went through smacking them like I always did.

So I guess he was solo and aggro'd a few things. Went through each one and hit them to get solid hate and then used Snarl and no luck.

Looks like I'm going to have to finish /DNC and drag along a RDM instead of a WHM.

I hit two mobs, snarl'd. Seemed to work fine for me.

[Kaylia]

So for my own education, please correct the following definitions for me if I get them wrong:
Hate list: a term used to describe the list of characters (associated with a single mob) that a mob maintains an enmity value for.

Alliance hate: a term used to describe a mob's behavior on aggro when it puts all alliance members of the aggro'ing/popping alliance on it's hate list with 0 enmity.

Super tanking: Tanking a mob by being its current target without being on its hate list. As a result actions by other characters doesn't generate enmity or put them on the hate list.

That's the way I've always understood it. That's why alliance hate and super-tanking are mutually exclusive in my mind.
PS. Pardon the academic nature of htis post

I'm simply trying to figure out if there was a change based on what the first poster said, I never said they were the same and know pretty well the difference.. Alliance hate put everyone on the hate list with 0 enmity. If they changed it to "1" enmity, the result would be totally different and would fuck up super tanking in certain situation (even if pld tank outside alliance). That's why I asked the question.

[Suiram]

Alliance hate puts everyone in the hatelist with the same trivial value as if they were the person who had aggroed it. For instance, let's say I pop Kirin in an outside party with a RDM and neither of us touches it. I can kite it as a supertank and they can cure/erase me as much as they desire without Kirin looking at him. However, Kirin also has alliance hate, meaning that if sleepga lands and he kills me with a TP move before I'm awakened, then rather than going back to his spawn and aggroing the nearest person, he goes for the RDM that was in the party with me. However, the RDM is now the new super-tank, and I or anyone else can cure him without pulling hate. If I raise up, and then the RDM dies, Kirin will subsequently go for me again, since I was still the only one in a party with him, even though others may have cured him and I hadn't touched him.

How a mob with alliance hate chooses between multiple targets is not known. I think it might be based on party list order (like how Copycat KS30 NM charms people), from my experiences testing AV spells on a Lv1 job with two other Lv1s. In either case, once it picks someone, that person is a super-tank until they die or someone does something to screw up supertanking.

[Thorny]

Kirin DOES NOT have alliance hate.. had someone sac in alliance by mistake before. He simply has no daze, meaning he will aggro the RDM instantly if they are in range when you die.

[Suiram]

Even in alliance hate, a person has to be within a certain (fairly large) radius to be put on the hate list. If it was a failed sac are you sure that there was anyone inside that radius to be put on the hatelist? A scenario similar to the one I described actually happened once, and I am pretty sure the distance was great enough for them to not have aggroed when I died, but Kirin does have a fairly big aggro range so it is possible I suppose. Would need confirmation either way I guess.

[Midnightjade]

Here is what he said about Snarl:

Something is wrong with Snarl also, if I have multiple agro from monsters and I use Snarl, some of the monsters stay on me, even after I selected each one and went through smacking them like I always did.

So I guess he was solo and aggro'd a few things. Went through each one and hit them to get solid hate and then used Snarl and no luck.

Looks like I'm going to have to finish /DNC and drag along a RDM instead of a WHM.

I hit two mobs, snarl'd. Seemed to work fine for me.

Have either of you guys noticed jugpets using more than one TP move after Sic command?

Last night I was tooling around on my BST, and when I hit Sic CC used Bubble Shower and then Big Scissors less than 2 seconds later. Never seen that before, thought it was rather odd.

My connection was completely fine at the time.

[Linktri]

As WHM, I dropped a flash on a mob in Dynamis-Beaucedine last night that was at 50% on a PLD tank and pulled hate. I have a lot of -enmity and really didn't have to cure that much last night. Was a pretty smooth run. It walked over, tagged me and walked back to melee. I can't think of the last time that's happened on WHM for me. Strange.