Melee str/atk ratio

[Kimkytaru]

Hello, I've got a question, we know for blm for example that if you want to lend stuff on most things you need to aim for like 120 INT and 320 Elemental skill (if I'm not mistaken).

Do we have something similar for melee ? with str and atk ?

Me curious thx for answering

[Wizerd]

Hello, I've got a question, we know for blm for example that if you want to lend stuff on most things you need to aim for like 120 INT and 320 Elemental skill (if I'm not mistaken).

Do we have something similar for melee ? with str and atk ?

Me curious thx for answering

Yeah, if you have a choice between Attack and STR, use Attack. <_<

Also, I still think it's a bunch of crap that more than 320 Elemental skill won't do anything, and that BLMs who use 320 skill / 120 INT instead of, say, 340 skill and whatever less INT are doing something wrong on mobs where 320 skill gives them more than just a few resists.

[Shuemue]

Also, I still think it's a bunch of crap that more than 320 Elemental skill won't do anything, and that BLMs who use 320 skill / 120 INT instead of, say, 340 skill and whatever less INT are doing something wrong on mobs where 320 skill gives them more than just a few resists.

Agreed.

[VZX]

Melee is more straight forward to me
The effect of Accuracy vs Evasion has been clearly researched.
If you know how much evasion your target is, you know how much accuracy you need for you to be able to land at specific hit rate.

[Max™]

I was thinking about this from the other way.

Int adds to spell base damage, Tier is modifier, right?

Str adds to weapon damage, Attack is modifier.

Only Attack mod depends on mob level/defense.

Higher level reduces the attack you calculate from, higher Defense reduces the modifier.

(Example for mathematical simplicity: You have 100 Attack, Target has 41 Defense, you have capped pDif, 2.4 x 41 = less than 100... now you make the target lvl 81~ and it applies a 0.83 level correction to your 100 Attack, so it is now 83, and you have 2.0~ pDif, not quite capped but still decent)

Weapon Damage + fStr (calculation involving your Str - target Vit, usually winds up between 0~12 for most situations you encounter meriting) = Base damage

Your Attack (level corrected)/Target Defense = pDif range (it won't be an exact number, but it will be on average that result)

Base damage x varied pDif roll = why you hit for 175 this time, 202 the next time. (say Weapon Dmg 88 + fStr Dmg bonus 10 for 98 x 1.0~2.4 = what you hit for)

Crits add 1.0 (still I assume) to pDif roll and have a higher cap, so 202 Hit turns into a 291 Crit. (98 Base x 2.0~3.25 = what you crit for)

WS mods add to base weapon damage along with fStr (HUGE NOTE: THIS IS WHY STR MOD WSES ARE SO POWERFUL! THEY DOUBLE DIP EACH POINT OF STR) depending on the % of the mod (100 Str, 50% mod, +50 WS mod) and the correction ratios. (as I recall should be .83 for the aforementioned mob for 98 + 41 Dmg so 139)

fTP is the modifier depending on your TP amount, this is what people refer too when they say this WS is a 3.0 fTP at 300%. (139 x 3.0 for 417)

THEN you check against pDif, same as above, and WHOAMG, now you see why Crit's and multihits pwn so much! (let's assume this WS above was force critted, 3.0 pDif roll, 417 x 3.0 AGAIN for 1241 Dmg! Neat!)

[Kimkytaru]

Umm then if it's the case why are people saying Forager is better than charger ?

Forager : +3str +15 atk
Charger : +20 atk

Acc is not a problem for me on mnk I know where I need to put and where I dont.

But sometimes when Im fighting stuff my melee hit drop below 40 (not talking about high def mob or such, just regular exp pt mob) so I wondered if it was because I had not enough str (loltaru with 60 base str with mnk/nin) or something else.

[Max™]

For monk you have a (relatively) low base damage, I think it's like 32 + 18 from Destroyers? So 50 Base per fist (a 150 woodvilles axe in each hand, nice!) if you're doing less than 50, then there are a few things going on.

I recall Gcoli's having like 67 Vit, so you'll want at least 67 Str to avoid a damage penalty from being Str < Vit.

They only have like 300~ Defense, so that probably isn't your problem, even swinging sushi you should be over 340 Defense with a decent TP build.

5 Str Rajas, 5 Str Brown 3 Str Forager's 5 Str mith's puts you at a low, but positive fStr number, so no damage penalty.

This suggests that either you are low on Str in tp gear (which is why forager's > charger's for so many cases, you need SOME Str in tp get up) and wearing a lot of acc/att without food, or wearing a lot of acc gear but eating sushi.

Attack food rocks because of the cheap easy 80-100 attack boost.

If you're over 67-70 Str in TP gear, but hitting for less than 50 much, you need more attack, either get a madrigal and eat miths, or get minuets and pop squid?

Forager's for a Monk is 16.5 Attack, +3 Str towards fStr (GENERALIZATION ALERT: 4 Str will USUALLY add roughly 1 base Dmg when you're in positive fStr) which goes towards keeping your minimum damage up.

Weapon Damage/Str/WS Mod = minimum/maximum damage comes from here
Attack/fTP/cRatio = why you land where you land between min/max damage.

[Raen Ryong]

I personally think Charger's Mantle is awful compared to Forager's/Amemet+1.

Each melee gets a different benefit from STR, I like to think of it like this;

Damage = [(D + fSTR)]1 * [pDif]2

D = Weapon Damage
fSTR = STR/VIT difference function
pDif = Attack/Defence function

I've split the two parts into different brackets, so

(D + fSTR)
and
* pDif.

Now, you multiply by pDif so adding a great deal of attack can have a dramatic effect on damage, but when you compare STR vs ATK... look at the job you are playing. Is your (D + fSTR) very high (eg Dark Knight), or is it low (eg Thief)? If it is low, then adding STR is a greater boost than if it is high (not saying it isn't good to use when (D + fSTR) is high)!

STR isn't as useless in TP build as people like to make out, but it is inferior to other stats such as Haste, Accuracy, and large amounts of Attack. However, if you get a choice between STR and Attack consider it carefully; the lower your (D + fSTR) the more the STR will boost your damage proportionately and the inverse is also true. Also to consider are food factors; when eating meat you are less likely to notice the effect of more Attack (although it's still very good) and when eating sushi, you definitely want to have a lot of Attack to compensate.

Tl,dr; STR is underestimated as a means of producing damage in the TP phase, and should NOT simply be subbed out for Attack in every situation. If you have a choice between 20 Attack or 3STR or something like that, obviously go for the Attack, but in a case like Charger's (~4 Attack, if that, vs 3STR) then the STR will generally always win (especially if your job has a low (D + fSTR)).

[Tordall]

You can actually max out on atk in a merit party situation, but it's pretty rare/I hate you if you consistently get parties with that much good support (bard, mages casting dia, eating meat etc).

If you're at that point, and can do it without giving up too much accuracy, use +str gear over +atk gear. Depending on the mob and support the number for maxed attack is somewhere between about 550 and 700 atk.

The funny part is, that if you're in the situation where your atk is maxed out, or nearly maxed out weird things start to happen with your gear choices. For example, if you're already hitting for twice your modified base weapon damage, then Homam body is actually better than Haub+1 b/c those occasional triple attacks will at least add something.

[Tan]

You can actually max out on atk in a merit party situation, but it's pretty rare/I hate you if you consistently get parties with that much good support (bard, mages casting dia, eating meat etc).

If you're at that point, and can do it without giving up too much accuracy, use +str gear over +atk gear. Depending on the mob and support the number for maxed attack is somewhere between about 550 and 700 atk.

The funny part is, that if you're in the situation where your atk is maxed out, or nearly maxed out weird things start to happen with your gear choices. For example, if you're already hitting for twice your modified base weapon damage, then Homam body is actually better than Haub+1 b/c those occasional triple attacks will at least add something.

Yeah, like for myself in Nyzul Isle I wear three riceball + items and eat Shoguns (sometimes and NQ's most of the time) and with that + berserk I have like 700+ attack and I gotta say the damage (and all the double attacks) are kinda nuts. Although my STR isn't that great vs what I could have for WS my damage is comparable if not better than w/ full STR gear. But I'll say this much, my Jinpus are fucking nuts lol. Easily doing 2k on most of the mobs (I know they are mainly DC mobs but its fun nonetheless) I personally like getting into the math behind it but I think my best gear combinations simply come from trying out the pieces in merit repeatedly. You kinda get a feel for when your damage is consistent w/ STR gear and when you need more ATT or vice versa, but maybe thats just me.

[FailureMidgard]

Eh, Chargers is better for a monk I thought in a merit situation? Destroyers are like a rank2 weapon or something, so it's far easier to cap fSTR than attack for them. For any 2h job with a rank8-9 weapon, or on any mob with a decent VIT it's a different story...and sorry if this is wrong, I don't have mnk leveled at all, but that was my understanding.

[Max™]

fStr cap = (14 + wRank x 2) x 2

Destroyer's being Rank 2, (14 + 2 x 2) x 2 = 36, so you need 103 Str to cap fStr for Destroyer's on a 67 Vit Greater Colibri.

With 103 Str you would get Base hth + Destroyers + 10 from fStr, so roughly 60 Base damage.

As you see, it's a larger boost relative to the base 50 Dmg, but it has a lower cap due to the lower base damage.


I basically said what you did, Raen, just backwards.

[Raen Ryong]

Oh yeah, I wasn't contradicting you since you know what you're talking about, just offering my own perspective on the issue =p

[Aragon of Odin]

Since we're on the topic of MNK I have something I'd like to know. Almost all MNK's I know swear by Destroyers and I always read that those are the best weapon of choice for MNK to go with. Over the past month and a half my buddy has been meriting a shit ton with his MNK to compare 2 weapons. Wagh Baghnaks(SP) vs Destroyers, and every single time the Wagh's have come ontop by a great amount, we're talking 10-15% total damage. 10-15% is huge, his ws dmg on average is 130 higher with the Wagh's.

All these parses were done at G.Colibri and Mamool camps, not once did he ever lose to another MNK, infact only 1 came close to him only losing by 10k DMG and it was a fully geared BB MNK where as my buddy only has Brown Belt. So after meriting with him so much and seeing the results on my own I have to ask why are Destroyers considered the best weapon? Are there times like maybe against higher defence mobs where they do better? Or was it just always an assumption that the 6% Crits would out weigh higer base DMG 5 ACC and 10 ATT?

[FailureMidgard]

Since we're on the topic of MNK I have something I'd like to know. Almost all MNK's I know swear by Destroyers and I always read that those are the best weapon of choice for MNK to go with. Over the past month and a half my buddy has been meriting a shit ton with his MNK to compare 2 weapons. Wagh Baghnaks(SP) vs Destroyers, and every single time the Wagh's have come ontop by a great amount, we're talking 10-15% total damage. 10-15% is huge, his ws dmg on average is 130 higher with the Wagh's.

All these parses were done at G.Colibri and Mamool camps, not once did he ever lose to another MNK, infact only 1 came close to him only losing by 10k DMG and it was a fully geared BB MNK where as my buddy only has Brown Belt. So after meriting with him so much and seeing the results on my own I have to ask why are Destroyers considered the best weapon? Are there times like maybe against higher defence mobs where they do better? Or was it just always an assumption that the 6% Crits would out weigh higer base DMG 5 ACC and 10 ATT?

Misinformation. I swear half the people I've talked to that say Destroyers are better think that Asuran can crit. They spread that, and more and more people believe it. There are situations Destroyers will win in (Acc/Attk capped mobs [I mean near 95%], or times when you can't TP burn at will), but from any bits of math I've done, I tend to agree with you Wagh is better. In general, I gave up arguing this a while back. I also don't understand why Sams use the equivalent polearm, especially since the addition of Tomoe.

[Ramuhnub]

Since we're on the topic of MNK I have something I'd like to know. Almost all MNK's I know swear by Destroyers and I always read that those are the best weapon of choice for MNK to go with. Over the past month and a half my buddy has been meriting a shit ton with his MNK to compare 2 weapons. Wagh Baghnaks(SP) vs Destroyers, and every single time the Wagh's have come ontop by a great amount, we're talking 10-15% total damage. 10-15% is huge, his ws dmg on average is 130 higher with the Wagh's.

All these parses were done at G.Colibri and Mamool camps, not once did he ever lose to another MNK, infact only 1 came close to him only losing by 10k DMG and it was a fully geared BB MNK where as my buddy only has Brown Belt. So after meriting with him so much and seeing the results on my own I have to ask why are Destroyers considered the best weapon? Are there times like maybe against higher defence mobs where they do better? Or was it just always an assumption that the 6% Crits would out weigh higer base DMG 5 ACC and 10 ATT?

Last I checked both were +18 damage?....

[Aragon of Odin]

Don't have access to check right now cause of this stupid Websense program my work installed, but I coulda swore Wagh's had higher base DMG, could be mistaken tho.

[Massimo]

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/..._Baghnakhs.PNG
http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/0/0b/D...escription.png

[Aragon of Odin]

THat didn't help either lol.

Websense is blocking 90% of all avatars and pics that people post so kinda sucks ass >.>

Edit: I'm gonna gather that those are showing they both have the same base DMG tho, and if that's the case then I really don't understand why the big difference in parses. I don't see how losing 6% crits and only gaining 5acc and 10att can make up for a 10-15% boost in total damage over a parse, but I've seen what I've seen so idk.

[Massimo]

Both 18.