Katana Question: Senji VS Shusui

[Lyramion]

Senji (D38 Delay 227 Crit 6%)

VS

Shusui (D37 Delay 227 ACC+5 DEX+3 HP-20 Subtle Blow+2)



I have a feeling this new katana is the first in a long time to actually put on some preasure on Senji (exclusing rellic).


When I exp NIN on Mamool my ACC always is somewhere in between 82% and 83% with Meat. Getting an additonal 6.5 ACC from Shusui would be a nice boost I imagine. It would work out to maybe a bit over 3% hitrate is my tought.

I would lose the 6% crit and 1D on the main hand. But the 6% crit is a boost for the mainhand only where the 6.5% ACC would also boost my offhand performance. Another thought is that since I am using meat and have tons of ATK the difference between my crithits and normal hits closes in somewhat.

For WS tho Senji would be a clear winner in my book. My WS to TP dmg usually is about 1/3 to 2/3.




I am left torn. The good old Senji already transformed to a symbiotic lifeform with my mainhand over the years but I have a feeling Shusui is nothing to be overlooked.


Anyone has any input? .. or better math to estimate the gain of 6.5 ACC on both hands to 6% Crit on the mainhand?

[Tan]

I don't see Senj being overthrown by this new Katana but I personally think Shusui would be an option for off Hand if you preferred it over Perdu or if you don't have Perdu. The only reason I don't think it will top Senj is the 6% crit hit rate is too big for Blade: Jin, but I do think that Shusui will help NIN's obtain a Dex/Crit build if they were going that way, so in that respect it might be a better offhand than Perdu. But then again Perdu is pretty sexy w/ low delay and decent damage w/ the ACC+ and the ATT+, so I'm not sure if many NIN's will find a niche for Shusui.

[BerenTebogo]

I've given this a long-hard look and to be blunt, it's (obviously) not going to change anything for me,but also I think from experience that Senji/Perdu will reign surpreme.

That being said, I posted in another thread about the viability of a fulltime (TP + WS) crit tier for bird camp that provides a very acceptable amount of ACC and Haste given the new items, my calculations for this included Usukane Haramaki over Haub +1 and Commanders cape over foragers / cerb, now if you qualify for the crit tier with all the new gear (for full time) you can main-hand shisui over senji and use your haub +1, which most people have, not usukane, and your foragers.

It's to be determined whether the crit +% from tier is worth giving up senji, however I think the BEST combo is senji + the crit setup, for birds anyways (I'll be testing it in time) however given the availability of some of the items it does hold potential.

I guess in short, it's to be tested still.

[Callisto]

now if you qualify for the crit tier with all the new gear (for full time) you can main-hand shisui over senji and use your haub +1

Curious, if you were going to do some combo of the two why would you mainhand the Shisui over Senji? Or do you mean like Shisui + Perdu?

[BerenTebogo]

now if you qualify for the crit tier with all the new gear (for full time) you can main-hand shisui over senji and use your haub +1

Curious, if you were going to do some combo of the two why would you mainhand the Shisui over Senji? Or do you mean like Shisui + Perdu?

That's exactly what I mean, I'm not sure how I feel about replacing perdu as off-hand weapon ever.

[Tan]

Senji (D38 Delay 227 Crit 6%)
Anyone has any input? .. or better math to estimate the gain of 6.5 ACC on both hands to 6% Crit on the mainhand?

Something I forgot to add, I don't think it would ever be practical to mainhand Shusui over Senj simply because the 6% Crit is applicable for your WS and also it pushes you over the Crit % Cap. I think it was shown that the only thing that pushes you to a higher % Crit rate after you have a certain amount of Dex is Crit+ gear or Crit + merits. Does anyone have a link to that Crit Hit testing thread? But I think it would be reasonable for offhand since the DEX+ for a Dex-Crit build would be applicable for both hands.

[Callisto]

now if you qualify for the crit tier with all the new gear (for full time) you can main-hand shisui over senji and use your haub +1

Curious, if you were going to do some combo of the two why would you mainhand the Shisui over Senji? Or do you mean like Shisui + Perdu?

That's exactly what I mean, I'm not sure how I feel about replacing perdu as off-hand weapon ever.

Time for the noob ass question because I can't look it up at work: Does Jin have a DEX mod, or just STR?

[BerenTebogo]

DEX, but until somebody can show some math that directly goes against everything I've parsed:

Adding more DEX beyond about 90-95 does minimal for WS and TP gain up until 110-112 DEX, at which point you will notice a difference, so for any value between 95-109 DEX you should be using STR over DEX in any situation where an equal piece of STR exists, without a reduction in DEX (aka no alkys) - (also subject to your own opinion and testing, Usukane legs outparse byakkos 100% of the time with my gear, and that's a reduction of 10 DEX for 5 STR 10 ATT)

This is for birds anyways, the numbers, I think same holds true for mamool though even more as in the typical scenario you're receiving minuets or chaos roll or both, while eating sushi (barring the few of us who can swing Hpie with a good 2brd or brd / cor party)

[Callisto]

DEX, but until somebody can show some math that directly goes against everything I've parsed:

Adding more DEX beyond about 90-95 does minimal for WS and TP gain up until 110-112 DEX, at which point you will notice a difference, so for any value between 95-109 DEX you should be using STR over DEX in any situation where an equal piece of STR exists, without a reduction in DEX (aka no alkys) - (also subject to your own opinion and testing, Usukane legs outparse byakkos 100% of the time with my gear, and that's a reduction of 10 DEX for 5 STR 10 ATT)

This is for birds anyways, the numbers, I think same holds true for mamool though even more as in the typical scenario you're receiving minuets or chaos roll or both, while eating sushi (barring the few of us who can swing Hpie with a good 2brd or brd / cor party)

I guess another issue I'd have is if you did go the DEX/Crit route, wouldn't you be giving up a fuckload of Attack for it? I can't really think of any big DEX + Atk pieces, you'd be dumping 25 from the back and legs alone, whatever you'd be missing from the STR, and I'm not sure if that DEX would really be accurate enough to go with Meat.

[BerenTebogo]

This is from the other topic, and the ATT / ACC values you're left with are actually VERY reasonable provided you are receiving Blade Madrigal, I would expect a merited NIN to hover around 83-85% ACC with this gear set.

However, Ancient torque, a DEX ring, Hachiryu hands, Byakko's haidate, Usukane Haramaki and a commander's cape will reach 112 DEX for me as a hume, and still be a very decent TP set for birds that allows for crit tier during melee and WS, I would fully endorse parsing the shit out of that set vs. any existing should anyone actually get all these items before I get a chance to.

Just a little aside, because I could be wrong. The way I understand it is that from lets say 90 total DEX to 109ish total DEX everything is roughly static besides from the very small expected increase in crit+% once you break 110-112 you reach the new tier and receive the large bonus in crit, so attempting to reach the tier when not possible is not always as good as increasing your fSTR.

You do lose a bit of ATT, but you're still able to eat meat and the point of a dedicated crit build is that it is overall better than the other similar builds, provided you don't sacrifce all your haste / ACC (as was required unless you were a mithra pre-update)

I am greatly looking forward to testing this set at birds, but it will be with Kikoku / Perdu, POSSIBLY off-hand shisui, but I doubt I'll be won over, I have haramaki for TP and 12 ATT from cerb won't make me cry that much.

[Tan]

I guess another issue I'd have is if you did go the DEX/Crit route, wouldn't you be giving up a fuckload of Attack for it? I can't really think of any big DEX + Atk pieces, you'd be dumping 25 from the back and legs alone, whatever you'd be missing from the STR, and I'm not sure if that DEX would really be accurate enough to go with Meat.

Uhhh Enkidu feet, and Enkidu feet? Dex, Agi and Haste! But tbh I would never give up Amemet+1/Foragers/Cerb/whateverhasrattackonyourback for 3 STR 3 DEX 3 AGI. 10-15 ATT in that slot is too huge to give up. But who needs attack in all the other slots when you got Minuet, Chaos roll and Food? Its not about completely removing all your other STR gear for obtaining a DEX build. Its about hitting that build with the most limited impact on the rest of your gear, atleast in my opinion.

[Callisto]

I'm still slowly getting past someone like Sath saying it's ok to wear a Commander's Cape in a specific situation, it's like next he's going to tell me in a specific build Knightly Mantle would be workable for PLD.

[BerenTebogo]

I'm still slowly getting past someone like Sath saying it's ok to wear a Commander's Cape in a specific situation, it's like next he's going to tell me in a specific build Knightly Mantle would be workable for PLD.

lol ;;

I really hope that doesn't get taken out of context and find someone meleeing in commanders cape on skoffin's going 'BUT SATH SAID IT WAS OK'

[Callisto]

I'm still slowly getting past someone like Sath saying it's ok to wear a Commander's Cape in a specific situation, it's like next he's going to tell me in a specific build Knightly Mantle would be workable for PLD.

lol ;;

I really hope that doesn't get taken out of context and find someone meleeing in commanders cape on skoffin's going 'BUT SATH SAID IT WAS OK'

Kikoku + CC NINs are going to be the new hotness for summer '08.

Katana-related question for a friend who recently came back to the game, until he can get a Senji, what's the best AH-able combo?

[BerenTebogo]

Fudo / Unji or something, or U/U

Depends really.

[mikazuki]

in regard to the AH options: generally fudo mainhand with your choice of unji or hayabusa offhand, for AH, variants of unji/unsho/hayabusa might perform better depending on sTP (and every other goddamn factor) but fudo is free with your cereal.

for shusui v. senju mainhand: surprisingly senju should win unless the 3dex breaks a crit tier, my napkin calculations indicate shusui would need 2acc more to be better than senju, the difference is in the region of 1% though for the situation you outlined.
the lines cross very close to those conditions so if you eat more or less skoffin/mamool/puk and depending on your songs/rolls and exact food, either can perform marginally better.

if you had neither, whichever dropped in your lap first would be fine, if you have one or the other the only point in changing in situations where you didn't have gimped or >92% acc would be for that crit tier dex in favour of shusui.

summary: sidegrade.

[LinktheDeme]

Unji/Perdu only all else is fail

edit: Aside from relics :O

[Rocl]

I use Senji/Shusui because I don't have Perdu 8)

Wait, I have ninja leveled?

[Max™]

I'm still slowly getting past someone like Sath saying it's ok to wear a Commander's Cape in a specific situation, it's like next he's going to tell me in a specific build Knightly Mantle would be workable for PLD.

/Dnc max waltz build, particularly for a strange no-blinking one.

Also: I keep hearing this stuff about crits being less important with higher attack.

You need to be pushing over 2.0 pDif constantly to start really hurting the gains from getting x% boost of 1.0 pDif hits (for a 1her, 2.25 for a 2her due to the 3.25~ cap on 2hed crits)...

Just to put that in perspective, I'm not sure off the top of my head how much Def a Greater Coli has, but I want to say 300 is a reasonable number (could be totally off, but I think its closer).. so, if it wasn't lvl 81, you would need 600 attack~ to hit 2.0 pDif consistently, after level correction, that goes up to 750~, which, given minuets, miths, and I think zerk, I can push easy... with my gaxe, I find it hard to believe most 1hed jobs are swinging well over 700 attack regularly enough to worry about nerfing the returns on critical hits.