NIN/WAR: I think I'm doing something wrong...

[evilpaul]

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35432

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[potatoninja]

not saying sit on ur tp forever but if u can get into a rythem where u can start a fight w/ a voke and a ws can keep it on you a bit longer always worked for me anyway mite have to mess ur tp gain for one fight to get it started but works ok

[Tyr]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35432

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I'm trying to see why Sath is having a hard time hitting 111+ DEX, and using Usukane pants over Byakko's. I currently don't have a Perdu, and I use Senji/Fudo, but this is a very feasible DEX WS build for me:

Day:
80 Base STR + 26 = 106
67 Base DEX + 47 = 114

Night:
80 Base STR + 29 = 109
67 Base DEX + 49 = 116

And I guarantee Sath has more/better gear than I do.

DEX+ is: Haubergeon +1, Ninja Tekko +1, Thunder Ring, Rajas Ring, Warwolf Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Pahluwan Crackows, Minuet Earring (I never exp w/o Minuet anyway).

STR+ is: Haubergeon +1, Ninja Tekko +1, Rajas Ring, Warwolf Belt, Minuet Earring, Forager's.

Nighttime switch AF2 boots in and switch Minuet Earring out for Vampire Earring.

Of the above, only thing I've been seeking for a while that is just never there is Shura +1 headpiece. Why even bother with a Commander's Cape?

[Kurgan]

Even Paladins begin to have hate-control issues when fighting mobs that are Tough and Very Tough, especially at level 75. Controlling hate at those levels versus mobs that are declining in difficulty starts to tip towards the damage dealers.

As a Ninja, you certainly shouldn't worry about hate control too much for most types of merit parties. The speed at which you kill mobs is fast enough that you simply need to gain initial hate, and then just concern yourself with your damage output until the mob is dead. A 2nd provoke might be warranted on a particularly longer and slower fight. Otherwise it interferes with the timer for provoking the next mob you fight.

[Kayos]

Even Paladins begin to have hate-control issues when fighting mobs that are Tough and Very Tough, especially at level 75. Controlling hate at those levels versus mobs that are declining in difficulty starts to tip towards the damage dealers.

I don't think you are giving good damage dealers enough credit. I am inclined to say it is almost downright impossible to hold hate off a really good DD as a pld against T or VT mobs with a standard pld setup. If you use a DD setup on pld it is definitely a bit easier.

Also: I thought the real bonus of having a nin in exp was so they voke first. I never expect nins I party with to keep hate. (relic nins or full usu nins being the exception).

[Titanss]

..and when you go to hnm arhats body/head and eris

[LinktheDeme]

Even Paladins begin to have hate-control issues when fighting mobs that are Tough and Very Tough, especially at level 75. Controlling hate at those levels versus mobs that are declining in difficulty starts to tip towards the damage dealers.

I don't think you are giving good damage dealers enough credit. I am inclined to say it is almost downright impossible to hold hate off a really good DD as a pld against T or VT mobs with a standard pld setup. If you use a DD setup on pld it is definitely a bit easier.

Also: I thought the real bonus of having a nin in exp was so they voke first. I never expect nins I party with to keep hate. (relic nins or full usu nins being the exception).

any nin that uses full usu is a fail nin

[Amastacia]

And why is that?

Shit's situational of course, but there are plenty of situations where full Usu is pretty ossum.

[Valyana]

Hope Torque vs pcc is situational and dependant on if you believe that skill over 200 = .9 acc/atk.. I've never seen the tests that supposedly concluded this, but if true.. 10 acc > 6.3 acc 6.3 attack whenever hitrate isn't capped unless your pdif is retardedly low. 10 acc vs 7/7 is closer.

1 skill over 200 = 0.9 acc/1 attack, so it's usually 10 acc vs 6/7. But 4 acc > 7 att unless your acc is capped anyway, so PCC is usually > torque.

The skill/acc correspondence was verified in one of the Nagamaki threads, too lazy to search for it now. My testing has worked with that formula, though I've never set out to verify it specifically.

[Kabbalah]

On the other hand, even with Fire Bomblet, PCC, and Haub +1, I'm still eating sushi, aren't I.

Basically, what I want to do is raise my attack as much as possible while still keeping my accuracy, but if the recommended items won't confer enough accuracy upon my NIN to release me from eating sushi, then why bother with them?

[Naramaska]

Basically, what I want to do is raise my attack as much as possible while still keeping my accuracy, but if the recommended items won't confer enough accuracy upon my NIN to release me from eating sushi, then why bother with them?

Because they will. Your NIN with a Bomblet will have as much ACC as mine does since you're sans-haidate. That means you'll be doing more damage using Hedgehog Pie than Sushi, even with the sub-80% ACC. This is why I always tell you to ask me about this shit rather than posting it on BG

[Kabbalah]

It's called a peer review. It's something you learn when writing academic papers: either everyone [who wants to] throws their two cents in, or it's bullshit.

And since when have I been lacking haidate? I've had those since January.

[retice]

On the other hand, even with Fire Bomblet, PCC, and Haub +1, I'm still eating sushi, aren't I.

Basically, what I want to do is raise my attack as much as possible while still keeping my accuracy, but if the recommended items won't confer enough accuracy upon my NIN to release me from eating sushi, then why bother with them?

Depends on where you are meriting, If your on Birds, I'm not sure you are spamming sushi on them since they take your food.

[Maaglin]

On the other hand, even with Fire Bomblet, PCC, and Haub +1, I'm still eating sushi, aren't I.

Basically, what I want to do is raise my attack as much as possible while still keeping my accuracy, but if the recommended items won't confer enough accuracy upon my NIN to release me from eating sushi, then why bother with them?

Because even with those items and sushi, you still won't be at acc cap (at least on mamools, and I doubt you're spamming sushi at birds). IMO that makes those items even more valuable. Off the top of my head (my parses on another comp atm) 2x brd meripo with sushi, 8/8 katana merits, I parse about ~88-90% at mamools, with my tp gear being:

senj/fudo
fire bomblet
w.turban
pcc
minuet earring
brutal earring
haub +1
dusk gloves
sniper x2
amement +1
swift belt
b. haidate
fuma sune-ate

My opinion is that you just flat out won't hold hate against pimped dd's (and that's ok). Raising your attk by sacrificing your acc to the 70% area, isn't really going to help you with anything as far as I'm concerned.

[Ashokan]

That means you'll be doing more damage using Hedgehog Pie than Sushi, even with the sub-80% ACC.

Since ninja is speed oriented and uses multihit weapon skills, the breaking point which meat becomes better than sushi is higher than 80% and certainly higher than sub-80%.

[Naramaska]

Since ninja is speed oriented and uses multihit weapon skills, the breaking point which meat becomes better than sushi is higher than 80% and certainly higher than sub-80%.

I'd beg to differ, especially given my parser results.

Weaponskill Damage
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg
Muffins                    131662    43.63 %     117/6    95.12 %    369/1622  1125.32
 - Metatron Torment        130730    99.29 %     116/6    95.08 %    369/1622  1126.98
 - Raging Rush                932     0.71 %       1/0   100.00 %     932/932   932.00
Naramaska                   52186    28.72 %      69/0   100.00 %    175/1440   756.32
 - Blade: Jin               52186   100.00 %      69/0   100.00 %    175/1440   756.32
Nars                        62434    29.56 %      81/0   100.00 %    175/1246   770.79
 - Blade: Jin               62434   100.00 %      81/0   100.00 %    175/1246   770.79

Support was BRD+COR doing 2x March, WAR roll, COR roll.
Muffins: Bravura WAR/SAM
Naramaska: NIN/WAR
Nars : Kikoku NIN/WAR


Not to mention that Nars' gear is far better than my own--Haub+1, Fire Bomblet, etc., yet I still managed to average Blade: Jin above 750 with my shit-tastic gear.

Melee damage:

Melee Damage
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Muffins              170124   56.37 %    748/124   85.78 %    85/545   215.28     80   207/652  328.94   10.70 %
Naramaska            129533   71.28 %   1632/560   74.45 %    21/112    71.80    272    53/147  117.24   16.67 %
Nars                 148801   70.44 %   1842/615   74.97 %    34/295    75.34    207    60/408  123.73   11.24 %

Even with lolPie, the DoT component is strong enough that it outweighs the loss in damage from ACC. I've only started saving my parses since moving to KParser, but I always merit with the same DD's (Nars, Muffins, and Slight; Kikoku and 2x Bravura, respectively) and same support setup (BRD+COR or 2x BRD), and since moving to pie i've seen a noticeable difference in the damage gap between me and the other two DD's. My Blade: Jin always averages over 700, my per-hit damage is always above 70/swing, and I do more than enough damage to keep the PT moving at ~25-28k/hr, even with an lolNIN doing damage instead of a "real" DD.

[Ashokan]

Naramaska, most of what you posted doesn't mean a whole lot. You haven't posted what you're wearing, what mobs you're fighting and there is no meat/sushi comparison.

Parse with WS damage

Support was BRD+COR doing 2x March, WAR roll, COR roll.
Muffins: Bravura WAR/SAM
Naramaska: NIN/WAR
Nars : Kikoku NIN/WAR

Not to mention that Nars' gear is far better than my own--Haub+1, Fire Bomblet, etc., yet I still managed to average Blade: Jin above 750 with my shit-tastic gear.

You've established that Nars had Kikoku and you used meat and you averaged roughly the same WS average as him while weapon skilling 12 less times than Nars. That really proves nothing.

Parse with Melee Damage

Even with lolPie, the DoT component is strong enough that it outweighs the loss in damage from ACC. ... but I always merit with the same DD's ... and since moving to pie i've seen a noticeable difference in the damage gap between me and the other two DD's. My Blade: Jin always averages over 700, my per-hit damage is always above 70/swing...

You've established that using meat, you've averaged 75% accuracy, and you average over 700 on each weapon skill. That sounds about right, but there's no comparison, specifics or even camp location. You've said DoT "is strong enough that it outweighs the loss in damage from ACC". I think you're probably breaking even, but close enough. What you are missing is the fact that you will be using Blade: Jin a lot less because you're missing all the time.

I'm not sure what you're wearing, so I'll use my gear as an example. Using Haub for body instead of AF+1:

Weapons:

Senju/Perdu
(227+180)/2=208

TP during melee:

Dual Wield
35% (Suppa) -> 135

TP Calculation
5 + ((135 - 180) * 1.5) / 180 = 4.6

Store TP
4.6 * 1.13 = 5.1 tp per swing

TP during WS:

30% Dual Wield -> 149

TP Calculation
5 + ((149 - 180) * 1.5) / 180 = 4.7

Store TP
4.7 * 1.13 = 5.3 tp for first swing on each hand
1 * 1.13 = 1.1 on extra swings

Full Jin = 5.3 + 5.3 + 1.1 + 1.1 = 12.8

Therefore, after a 12.8 return on a full Blade Jin, it will take 18 swings to get back to 100%+. If you're accuracy is 75% instead of 95%, it's going to take you 24 swings (5 misses) instead 19 swings (1 miss). It isn't much, but if your getting a Weapon Skill off every time it's ready, you've just added a 20% wait onto each Weapon Skill -or- a 20% decrease in your cumulative weapon skill damage, depending how you look at it.

Your best weapon skills are going to be better, obviously but the per hit gain isn't going to be as dramatic regular attack hits because of modifiers. In addition, assuming you have 80% accuracy on Weapon Skills (guessing you add accuracy for Weapon Skills) you're missing a lot more giving you less chances for the crits, which is where all the damage is. You're also getting a lot less full Jins, depending on how many times you double attack, you've just lowered the likelihood of you landing all of hits from about 75-80% to about 25%-40%. See Rukenshin's blog for math. I doubt you can compensate for that while doing 20% less weapon skills.

I’m not saying meat has no place, I just think the point at which meat becomes better than sushi is higher on ninja because it's strengths are hitting fast and critical hitting on weapon skills. Eyeballing "a noticeable difference in the damage gap between me and the other two DD's" without any evidence isn't enough.

[Kabbalah]

So basically, more accuracy and let sushi drive it to 95%, then depend on the increased accuracy to add to my DPS, yeah?

[Ashokan]

It probably gets old reading it, but it's situational. Optimal gear/food for each mob and situation is different, even for merit parties. Obviously, you should never continue adding accuracy if you're already at cap or use sushi when you're already close to cap without it. It's just something you have to parse, look up mobs and get a feel for.

...but if the recommended items won't confer enough accuracy upon my NIN to release me from eating sushi, then why bother with them?

It's up to you if they are worth it, but I guarantee those items will help your overall damage. Inevitably, there is always going to be situations you're not at cap, when those situations arise items such as Bomblet and PCC are going to make a substantial difference.

[yrpaine]

nin will almost always need to use sushi in merit ptys. adding more acc to your gear will still help as ppl posted unless you're at 95%, which won't happen for nin against mamools.

As long as you're first voke, it will allow for timers to reset for other DD in your pty so they can tank it down the rest of the way when they get hate, which will allow your recast timers to reset. in a burn setup you generally never have 1 person solo tanking, and nobody expects you to unless they're a drg or something and they just don't get it.