Pandemonium Warden - The aftermath theories.

[Izzy]

This thread. (The other one is in the original Zeni NM thread.)

But really, people should try every insane, inane, and sane theory possible. The fact that this fight is long, but not hard, (I had to) makes it perfect for testing, unlike AV which is more along the lines of "At lassst the time has--*Chainssspell*".

Agreed, this is not like AV that has an insta-win button. You have lots of time to jerk around with PW and see what works. I'm sure lots of tests will be done when more people start to pop this and fuck with it.

[Kaylia]

They seriously need to fix T4 drop rate tho. ZNM system was awesome until we got cockblocked by the higher pop item.

If they dont want to change that, they should at least allow you to buy T3 items without farming T1 and T2 over and over. Pay 8k for t3 instead of 3k, and skip T1/T2.

Oh well, it's not as bad as Al'taieu was at first. 10 fortitude and 3 Ix'Drk only to get nothing off Justice. It was fucking awesome.

[zoobernut]

I agree Kaylia looking back at Sea I almost feel like they are making the same mistake again though to a lesser degree. It is just funny they cannot relate one area of the game to another. "Hmm this mechanic failed miserably over here but maybe if we try it again it will work this time with different monsters."

[Therin]

I agree Kaylia looking back at Sea I almost feel like they are making the same mistake again though to a lesser degree. It is just funny they cannot relate one area of the game to another. "Hmm this mechanic failed miserably over here but maybe if we try it again it will work this time with different monsters."

I wouldn't quite equate it with sea, at least you're getting drops farming on the way up. If the tier 1-4 mobs only dropped 1-2 items each (a torque and a mostly useless weapon, for instance) then you could make the same analogy, but in a lot of cases the drops on tiers 1-4 ZNMs are superb. Sure, PW drops may be better, but Aurum feet/body, some of the Enkidu/Oracle's, Naglering, Organics, the two mage staves, and the grips for gil is nothing to shake a stick at, and overall quite a bit better than a 10% torque drop rate and a weapon that you rarely use.

[shieldsofwindurst]

By "easy to test", you mean "nearly impossible to test"? The 8 lamps share hate with PW for the most part. Someone else besides the tank acting on the lamp can distract them for a few seconds but they will eventually come back for whoever is on the top of the hate list. Now combine that with the nasty AOE moves the triple gears do (AOE 450~600 dmg / gravity) and you've got a PW that can NOT be straight tanked regardless of gear/skill/etc. Hell, you can have a PLD that can keep invincible up the whole time and you'd still wipe because rail cannon is magic dmg.

So, now it's a kited fight. So you've got a tank kiting PW with the 8 lamps following it. And you've got people trying to nuke/shoot at PW while it's being kited along with the 8 lamps. Whenever someone pulls hate from doing dmg, the gears now turn and AOE on whoever pulled hate and everyone near that person. People are dying left and right and the fight is now turning into some kind of 2005 5hour Kirin-athon by an amateur LS where you toss XP at the mob.

So not only is the "don't kill the lamps and just kill the PW"-thoery not plausible in execution, it also isn't very sound in logic. It doesn't make sense to make a mob that summons pets that HAS to be killed without the pets being killed at all. That's like a Kirin where you can't kill the summoned gods or Bahamut v2 where you can't kill the summoned wyrms. Not logical.

Not much you can do when people refuse to read the thread about the very thing they are speculating on. With that said, the same people are still going to bitch at the next groups to try killing the PW without killing the lamps until some somebody gives in and tries. And I /salute the poor shmucks that sacrifice 100k xp to do so.

[Avé]

Pandemonium Warden is obviously the key to defeating his prisoner, Absolute Virtue.

[ronin sparthos]

I wouldn't quite equate it with sea, at least you're getting drops farming on the way up. If the tier 1-4 mobs only dropped 1-2 items each (a torque and a mostly useless weapon, for instance) then you could make the same analogy, but in a lot of cases the drops on tiers 1-4 ZNMs are superb. Sure, PW drops may be better, but Aurum feet/body, some of the Enkidu/Oracle's, Naglering, Organics, the two mage staves, and the grips for gil is nothing to shake a stick at, and overall quite a bit better than a 10% torque drop rate and a weapon that you rarely use.

Along with Cerb Claws, Hydra Parts and Cerberus Hide - all drops that have some value to them as well.

[zoobernut]

I wouldn't quite equate it with sea, at least you're getting drops farming on the way up. If the tier 1-4 mobs only dropped 1-2 items each (a torque and a mostly useless weapon, for instance) then you could make the same analogy, but in a lot of cases the drops on tiers 1-4 ZNMs are superb. Sure, PW drops may be better, but Aurum feet/body, some of the Enkidu/Oracle's, Naglering, Organics, the two mage staves, and the grips for gil is nothing to shake a stick at, and overall quite a bit better than a 10% torque drop rate and a weapon that you rarely use.

I think you are totally correct. That is why in my post I said "to a lesser degree" it is not nearly as bad as sea in the fact that there are numerous and great rewards along the way I was merely saying it is very similar to sea with respect to the mechanics of the pop item system and the fact that the tier 4 ZNM's have horribly low drop rate on the pop items to move up to the final tier.

[Kaylia]

T1-T4 is perfectly fine. It's just T4 to T5 that is retarded right now. I dont think I would complain if drop rate was 50%..but 10-20% is way too low

When I look at rare gears in this game, I just see drama and people screwing up each other over loot, and it's not something I want to deal with in any linkshell. One pop every 2 months (or less if it's unkillable) is asking for trouble.

[Flight_93]

Oh well, it's not as bad as Al'taieu was at first. 10 fortitude and 3 Ix'Drk only to get nothing off Justice. It was fucking awesome.

Gah, the memories of Virtue cockblockage come pouring back- If I have to see another Ghrah again it'd be too soon.

That said, I think we're starting to detect that same hint of piss and vinegar in ZNM, 3 weeks of "hardcore" farming = 1/5 Hide, 0/5 Tail, 0/3 Fang..... 3/13 Hachiryu.

Also: Aurum = the new Jailer Weap.

WHO WANTS TO TAKE PIX - CMON GUYZ I PROMISE HE WONT CHANGE MOB MID-FARM.

[Jaceot]

How certain are we that killing it with lamps up makes it repop as the original? BC and LBC look pretty similar if you don't have the time to look at them closely.

[Lyn]

BC and LBC look pretty similar if you don't have the time to look at them closely.

Oh, trust me, we learned that the hard way..
Homing Missile to the face for eevverryoonnnee!

[Wolfknight]

Oh, trust me, we learned that the hard way..
Homing Missile to the face for eevverryoonnnee!

he meant how certain are that the other group repop was indeed BC and not LBC when came back as chariot 2nd time.

[Dankster]

She knows that, what she was saying was when LBC spawnd for us we mistook it for BC. We soon found out while postioning for discoid we all ate a missle to the face.. whoops! They are very similar and most likely it wasnt the same chariot repopping.

LBC: "Smokestacks" front and back

BC: "Smokestacks" left and right

[pohibaba]

I looked through the other thread, but I didn't see any pictures of the second chariot that popped; does anyone from that linkshell have pictures of the second chariot? Preferably pictures of both would be best, because then we could compare and contrast them and see if we learn anything.

[Onorgul]

Fuck Square-Enix.

[Max™]

Never said it would be easy at all, but as it stands, if the title thing does bear out, you've AT LEAST got to deal with three or four forms which it doesn't cover.

If it doesn't, then what is left? Grind away at it for half a day to get a Tiamat loot pool of Fire Crystal and Beetle Blood?

I know it shares hate, so it's a matter of what is less ridiculous, killing it 8, 9, 10 or more times... or killing it without killing the lamps?

[midguardian]

Maybe it's simply a matter of killing the lamps in the correct order. Or maybe that will just make PW repop with White Magic Restricted.

I can see an NM added with the idea that you must kill mob A while mobs B1-B10 are all alive and beating on you. Plenty of other NMs share that design philosophy. But why have all the different forms for PW if there is a way to avoid them? At the least I would guess you will have to kill PW in all his forms (however many that turns out to be) even if you don't actually have to kill any of the minions. But even that sounds way too hard unless there are tricks to weakening/unlinking the minions.

GL to whoever is next up fighting PW.

[Kaylia]

Good luck killing lamp in correct order. Unless there is some "immunity" that differenciate them, I can't imagine how you would figure it out.

But why have all the different forms for PW if there is a way to avoid them?

To force you to avoid them? Half of the fight would be avoiding the other form, other half is kill PW itself. It's not like any of those form have unique design and weapon skills that SquareEnix want you to see.

And depending of the method used to avoid them, you might not be able to avoid everything. Maybe there is a few form you will be forced to do (the hume general for example with title idea).

[Max™]

I'm hoping there is some "oh, duh, THAT's what it is" trick that someone will figure out.

Right now, epic 8 hour battles against all manner of AU denizens, interesting though they may be, don't sound promising.

Does it really sound better to go through that multi-hour, multiple gear > pw > respawn grind again, and again, and again, and again, hoping that each time is the last time?

I know Saper is a decked out capable shell, you guys seemed to manage taking the gears down and killing the wardens nicely, how many shells do you think would be able to do the same, and keep going for however many hours til he hopefully stops repopping?

Warden doesn't Regen midfight does he?

Have a couple of tanks kite him around for a bit til they cap out hate, and then, dumb as it sounds, start seeing which DoT's you can stick on him, have some Smn's BP him, send in suicidal melees (I'd go steel cyclone the bastard and eat a rail cannon-ga), I mean hell, he isn't that hard himself... the difficulty lies in the pets and the shared hate.

It would probably be easier if it was like Kirin where you could at least get the pets away, pain in the ass that it would be.

You brought up logic though, does the 8 hour grind sound like the logical pinnacle of what was ultimately a rather simple series of fights leading up to T5?