Pandemonium Warden - The aftermath theories.

[further]

Open /ROM/26/37.dat with notepad and tell me how many times you see Forest Hare listed.

What is your point?

[Norellicus]

That's the dat for West Ronfaure. There are rabbits everywhere. Same model for every last one, all have the same name, yet I can guarantee you there is a unique listing of "Forest Hare" in that dat for every rabbit that can pop in that zone.

(As an aside, this file and the ones like it are what the game uses to generate widescan lists; it's why NMs and their placeholders always pop on the same spot on the list.)

[Xanthe]

What is your point?

Look at Pririan's post.

[further]

It might not make sense to you, but that's how it is implemented. You're on the right track about resource sharing, but you're trying to read too deep into it. An individual .DAT is needed to represent each mob in order to track specific details for each one, such as xyz position, hp, tp, etc. The reuse comes in with the .DAT model, effect .DATs, etc which can be shared resources.

If you KNOW how it is implemented, why are you allowing us all to theorize about it? Tell us how it is, and how many Lamps and PWs there are. (seriously, not being an asshole)

[further]

That's the dat for West Ronfaure. There are rabbits everywhere. Same model for every last one, all have the same name, yet I can guarantee you there is a unique listing of "Forest Hare" in that dat for every rabbit that can pop in that zone.

(As an aside, this file and the ones like it are what the game uses to generate widescan lists; it's why NMs and their placeholders always pop on the same spot on the list.)

Obviously there is a unique LISTING... I was talking about unique FILES. (not listings within files)

[notEtheron]

Seems pandemonium is in place to distract everyone from the other invincible big boss. Maybe they'll release a video from their staff showing us how to beat PW heh

[Max™]

Yeah, we're mixing up a couple of terms here.

There are the model/animation files, and the name/xyz/info files which track what's happening.

Since he hasn't popped more or less than 8 lamps, it seems likely to me at least that there is some tie between the 32 name .dat's, and the probably 32 model .dats they can bring up, and that the lamps are just repeated...

Hell, the lamps might even be treated in some strange way as one entity, we don't know how they programmed this, but they seemed to put some effort into making it unobvious after we .dat mined it, and remaining so after initial encounters.


One question away from speculation, did it pop with the same Discoid chariot model for Saper as it did the first pop?

I'm wondering if the Chariot's are just selected as a first form because of how annoying the gears are to deal with, or if it could pick any form to start with, and luck of the draw just put it the chariots at the start (rolling two 4's in a row with two different dice, unlikely, but possible) as it could help understand the mechanics a bit more.


Also: The Dev video on how to peat PW would consist of Rdm's and Plds in Koenig tanking with Earth Staves, but instead of people 2hring, the chatlog would zoom in when they get Rail Cannoned to death.

[Xanthe]

If you KNOW how it is implemented, why are you allowing us all to theorize about it? Tell us how it is, and how many Lamps and PWs there are. (seriously, not being an asshole)

It's not that I know, it's that we all know. We have for a very long time now. There are 2 PWs, and 30 lamps in the .DAT for Aydeewa. The .DATs do not lie.

[Max™]

It's not that I know, it's that we all know. We have for a very long time now. There are 2 PWs, and 30 lamps in the .DAT for Aydeewa. The .DATs do not lie.

The .dats did lie though, we've seen a lot more than 2 models for PW, a lot more than 30 lamps between the different models, and we haven't seen 2 PW's up at once, or more than 8 Lamps up at once.

[further]

It's not that I know, it's that we all know. We have for a very long time now. There are 2 PWs, and 30 lamps in the .DAT for Aydeewa. The .DATs do not lie.

So if there is a listing for 30 lamps in Aydeewa, and there MUST be a listing for each mob, how do you explain the fact we killed well over 30 lamps? (Again, not being an asshole, just trying to understand)

[Max™]

I can explain it, you didn't kill over 30 different lamp models, and in fact, didn't kill more than 16 different lamp models, right?

[Priran]

the names in the zone dat are just that: names. a beastman summoner has only one space in the dats for his summon, but it may repop as any one of several models if it dies.

[further]

I can explain it, you didn't kill over 30 different lamp models, and in fact, didn't kill more than 16 different lamp models, right?

Correct, but a second ago we were saying that each mob, regardless of model, must have a unique entry in the dats. (I suppose the argument would be that therer were no more than 8 lamps up at a time, so they were being "recycled"? But even then, why 30 entries if only 8 can be up at a time?)

I am just trying to say that we shouldn't assume we 100% understand everything about how the game works so quickly.

Either way, this is sucking up too much of my time/energy... You guys figure it out, I am going back to work

[Suiram]

Another example--not quite as good as Priran's--is Vrtra.

Vrtra
Pey
Pey
Iruci
Iruci
Airi
Airi

Meaning if shit hits the fan and you get overrun with summons, the most he can have out at a time is 6, two of each kind. However as anyone who has played BLM in a kited Vrtra fight knows well, he can summon well more than two of each kind over the course of the fight if you keep killing them.


Edit:

But even then, why 30 entries if only 8 can be up at a time?

This is part of what I was hoping you or someone on your server could find out if you know how to do that Almighty Apkallu stuff (I don't, but there's a walkthrough in that thread you could modify for this). See if it was the same 8 being reused or if 8 were used for Dvergr form and 8 for variable form with 14 left over unused, or if it cycled through them, by seeing which showed as having "spawned" since last server maintenance in memory.

[Max™]

No, I was saying that while most mobs have had a unique entry, it adds up for this one to have an entry for each model it uses, but not for each duplicate it spawns.

Again, this could be completely off if it spawns more than the chariots/besieged/kings/generals, but right now it is an interesting correlation.

Oh, btw, another question, what TP moves did the other lamp forms use?

Lamias, Trolls, Troopers, etc.

[Xanthe]

So if there is a listing for 30 lamps in Aydeewa, and there MUST be a listing for each mob, how do you explain the fact we killed well over 30 lamps? (Again, not being an asshole, just trying to understand)

That listing means that there can be no more than 30 unique lamps at any given time, meaning there is the potential for 30 at once. Respawns are allowed, thus how you could have killed cumulatively over 30 lamps. It's the same with JoL pets. Theoretically you could have 9 Phuabo, 9 Hpemde, and 9 Xzomit up all at once if you successfully held every set and did not kill them. After those have all popped JoL would not be able to summon any more pets until some are killed. Other routines are in place to determine logic such as what can be summoned how many times and in what quantity, such as the JoL summons being in sets of 3 and only 3 sets of Hpemde and Xzomits after which you will only see Phuabo sets. So if you kill all 6 sets of Hpemde and Xzomits, JoL could only summon a maximum of 9 Phuabo at once until some are killed off.

[Priran]

Correct, but a second ago we were saying that each mob, regardless of model, must have a unique entry in the dats. (I suppose the argument would be that therer were no more than 8 lamps up at a time, so they were being "recycled"? But even then, why 30 entries if only 8 can be up at a time?)

I'm saying that in order for a mob to be allowed to exist, it must be assigned a unique entry from the zone dat.

ockham's razor would suggest there are 30 spots for lamps because there will at some point potentially be 30 lamps spawned, and not that they're some SE conspiracy red herring designed to fuck with dat miners. the 2 wardens could be needed to allow PW to change forms, or it could be that he'll split in two at some point, it's kind of hard to tell when no one who's fought it has taken the 5 minutes required to numerate the 32 entries in question.

[further]

Oh, btw, another question, what TP moves did the other lamp forms use?

Lamias, Trolls, Troopers, etc.

Sorry, I have erased all memory of the night/morning due to the fact it made me hate the game.

Seriously though, I don't remember many TP moves from the lamps... We were BLM burning them and with shared hate, they spent most of their time running after the tank while we nuked them down.

I want to say they used TP moves relevant to their mob type, but I can't remeber for sure. (Maybe somebody else remembers...)

ockham's razor would suggest there are 30 spots for lamps because there will at some point potentially be 30 lamps spawned, and not that they're some SE conspiracy red herring designed to fuck with dat miners.

I don't buy the SE Conspiracy either. If anything, I think the inconsistencies with the DATS vs what we have always thought to be true pooints towards the possibility that we may not have known as much as we all thought we did.

(Or they just did something completely unique with this mob\set of mobs)

[Khamsin]

So if there is a listing for 30 lamps in Aydeewa, and there MUST be a listing for each mob, how do you explain the fact we killed well over 30 lamps? (Again, not being an asshole, just trying to understand)

It's more about how many can be loaded in memory at once and what their names are, than about what model it visually uses.

If it's name is different, it needs a unique entry in the .dats.
If it could be loaded in memory at the same time as something else, it needs a unique entry in the .dats.

In the case of two PWs, it's possible they want one to remain in memory (if not visible to us the entire time) while we kill the other. Or it could be that they wanted to keep one in memory while they repop the other for some technical reason. Who knows.

For the lamps, for all we know only 8 lamp .dats have been used. Only a memory editing program like ArtMoney or ollydbg can tell for sure (that is, if you want to avoid using illicit programs that won't be discussed here).

Next time someone pops PW, someone will just have to write down what ID the dvegr form is, what ID the chariot/beastman/general form is, what ID the lamps are for each form, etc. and go from there.

Protip for the next PW poppers: If you aren't familiar with memory editing programs, or they make you feel uncomfortable, or you just don't think you'll have time to worry about fidgeting in memory while you're trying to kill PW, then just edit your Aydeewa .dat (save a backup first and use a hex editor) and append the last two digits of each mob's ID to the end of it.

e.g. if you open up the .dat, you might see:

.....1B03001F...Phlebomatic Slug.....

so just change that to

.....1B03001F...Phlebomatic Slug 1F...

(another protip: if you use POLUtils to look up a mob's ID, it's written backwards)

[Max™]

Yeah, but that doesn't hold true against what the mob actually does.

He doesn't seem to pop over 8 at a time, but we know there are at least Gear, Lamia, Troll, Trooper, Skull model Lamps, so that would require 40 or more entries by the normal method they used.

The behavior of the lamps almost makes me want to think of them as a single mob, they WS at the same time, they all have the shared hate with Pande, and they have that all or nothing effect on his respawn changing apparently.