Pandemonium Warden - The aftermath theories.

[Max™]

That would be awesome, as you said, for the next fight to have renamed .dats and whatnot.

Yeah, perhaps he will summon 22 Lamps in his actual Dvergr form, though when he swaps to Dvergr he just has 8 Skulls doesn't he?

It's a strange correlation that stands out, and would help avoid the weird 8 > 10 > 12 Lamp ideas.

[Xanthe]

Iirc before killing the Royal Court the Animated Weapons have no Satellites or loot pool.

Yep, that's correct.

[Max™]

Anyone on Garuda able to memory check that wasn't reading when it was suggested at first?

[Khamsin]

Yep, that's correct.

And they need a separate .dat entry for that?

Anyone on Garuda able to memory check that wasn't reading when it was suggested at first?

That's a good point, you have until next server maintenance to check the memory for what has popped over the course of the fight.

[shieldsofwindurst]

They can't name them misleadingly, they can't change a mob's name in memory on the fly. The easiest way to prove it would be to change PW's names in the .dat to Pande Warden 01 and Pande Warden 02. If they all of a sudden get renamed to "Pandemonium Warden", then we know some freaky shit is going on.

They can do anything they want. They are the programmers. IIRC, there was a sword found off a ZNM that wasn't in the dats. If that's the case, then it just shows that they're sick of all of the new items and game mechanics being dat mined within the first 5 minutes of an update and want to throw something out there to confuse and intrigue you, like the Zhayolm frog pop system.

[Max™]

You can be an hero!

Really though, aside from being convinced that having all the lamps up will be important (even if you just repop him into a form with easier to handle lamps), I'm just brainstorming trying to find a way to explain the 2 PW/30 Lamp setup.

It doesn't make much sense for them to be falsely named, and renamed upon spawn, but it doesn't make much sense for there to be 2/30 with nothing suggesting it would need more than 1/8 and a large model list to choose from.


Hell, that's an interesting thought, were any of the lamp forms easier to handle than the gears with the railcannonga spam?

Might be easier to put it into that desired form, and then kill it with the lamps up, but who knows right now.

[Xanthe]

Iirc before killing the Royal Court the Animated Weapons have no Satellites or loot pool.

They can do anything they want. They are the programmers. IIRC, there was a sword found off a ZNM that wasn't in the dats. If that's the case, then it just shows that they're sick of all of the new items and game mechanics being dat mined within the first 5 minutes of an update and want to throw something out there to confuse and intrigue you, like the Zhayolm frog pop system.

What sword, what ZNM, and where's the picture? If it's not in the .DATs it can't drop, otherwise your client would crash, easily demonstrated by deleting the .DAT for an item, mob, or even a zoneThe Zhayolm frogs were always in the .DATs. We knew they existed, but we didn't know how to pop them. A year and a half later we now have accounted for every frog entry for Zhayolm Remnants.. The .DAT files are a client side implementation of static data storage in a flat file format. They contain information to be read by the POL client instead of having to download the information from the server every time it needs to be loaded into memory. They can tell us what entities can exist in the game, and in the case of mobs, what zones they can appear in and in what quantities, but they can't tell us the "hows". The logic is server side. Just because they are programmers doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. They have to work within the confines of the system they designed. There is no grand conspiracy by SE against the .DAT miners.

Think of the .DATs as a bunch of lego blocks. Alone they are just pieces that don't amount to much. Without directions (server logic) you can only guess how they might go together. Sometimes you'll put them together correctly, but often you'll miss out on important details you'll only find in the directions.

[Dohorehn]

Anyone try using a Soultrapper on it? >_>

WHAT THE FUCKING SHIT COCK

I'm smiling profusely.

[Sagacious Sundi]

And they need a separate .dat entry for that?

I find that weird, too. A mob can have different stats and drops/drop rates in a single .dat entry (see: varying levels on a single enemy, Culberry, 3F madame), but then again those are based on how they spawn and not changed mid-fight. But they could have simply made them despawn and respawn with the different attributes if that were the case. But (ugh, I put too many "buts" in this post :\) then again that was before the Uggalepih Pendant NM and 3F Madame.

[shieldsofwindurst]

What sword, what ZNM, and where's the picture? If it's not in the .DATs it can't drop, otherwise your client would crash, easily demonstrated by deleting the .DAT for an item, mob, or even a zoneThe Zhayolm frogs were always in the .DATs. We knew they existed, but we didn't know how to pop them. A year and a half later we now have accounted for every frog entry for Zhayolm Remnants.. The .DAT files are a client side implementation of static data storage in a flat file format. They contain information to be read by the POL client instead of having to download the information from the server every time it needs to be loaded into memory. They can tell us what entities can exist in the game, and in the case of mobs, what zones they can appear in and in what quantities, but they can't tell us the "hows". The logic is server side. Just because they are programmers doesn't mean they can do whatever they want. They have to work within the confines of the system they designed. There is no grand conspiracy by SE against the .DAT miners.

Think of the .DATs as a bunch of lego blocks. Alone they are just pieces that don't amount to much. Without directions (server logic) you can only guess how they might go together. Sometimes you'll put them together correctly, but often you'll miss out on important details you'll only find in the directions.

I know how the dats are structured, and I know what the correllations are that people have made. What you need to remember is that they are just that-correllations. Unless you've seen the actual code, you don't and can't know for sure how the dat files are actually used, especially in this case.

Let me explain this way. There's a concept called "the mental model" which discusses how people make a model in their head to explain how things work when they can't see the entire process. For example, many people think that if the air in the house is cold, the fastest way to warm up a house is to crank the thermostat way higher than the temperature you want, as that will result in the heater/furnace producing more and/or hotter air, resulting in the rooms warming up quicker. This is, in fact, the way the heater in a car works. However, in many if not most houses, the furnace has 2 settings-100% on and 100% off, and cranking the temperature to 80 will result in the same speed as cranking it to 120.

The point is the way that you think it works, based on what you can actually see, isn't always right. Sometimes it is-which is why dat mining is a useful process-but sometimes it isn't. Speculating on the behavior of a mob based on the dats seems to be in this second category, especially considering that people who made statements based on the 32 dat file entries have been wrong about 1. the number of PW forms 2. the number of PW lamps per form and 3. the total number of lamps you'd have to fight through the course of the fight. I don't expect the pattern will change any time soon.

Not that I have anything against dat file speculation in this thread-I mean, at least it's better than coming up AV-style theories while we wait for another LS to farm up a pop set-but it should be understood as just that, speculation. I have plenty of faith in SE's programmers to be lazy and do things they way they've always done them, so your statement about them being forced to work in the confines of the system they've created has a strong chance of being valid. However, it'd be stupid to not at least acknowledge the fact that software can, in fact, work any way you want, and that there might be some manner of different paradigm at work here, especially when we already have multiple examples of previous correlations failing to match reality.

[Sagacious Sundi]

However, it'd be stupid to not at least acknowledge the fact that software can, in fact, work any way you want, and that there might be some manner of different paradigm at work here, especially when we already have multiple examples of previous correlations failing to match reality.

Care to cite these examples?

[Kaylia]

The last few pages had so many retarded comments..what's so complicated about mob ID? >_>

1 entry in the .dat = 1 mob ID = 1 name = 1 possible target

It's not possible to have 2 monsters up with the same ID. The ID is what you use to communicate with the server and specify your target. The name is simply the text associated with every ID on your pc and the one that show ingame

If there is 9 mobs up, you will need at least 9 ID. Because PW and the 8 lamps respawn almost instantly, you know they use 18 entry at least. Why? Probably because it's easier to consider them as different monster on both server and client. For similar reason, you can't have a mob repop when the body is still up on your screen. You need 2 ID.

Why there is 16+14 lamps? The last 2 forms might have 15 up instead of 8? Some might use "shadow" move like that Yagudo or ISNM puk and create multiple copy..there could be many reasons


I will rename the .dat to PW1, PW2, Lamp1, lamp2, lamp3 before popping it next time. It will be easy to see which one you're killing and which one is comming back to life every time it repop.

[shieldsofwindurst]

The last few pages had so many retarded comments..what's so complicated about mob ID? >_>

1 entry in the .dat = 1 mob ID = 1 name = 1 possible target

It's not possible to have 2 monsters up with the same ID. The ID is what you use to communicate with the server and specify your target. The name is simply the text associated with every ID on your pc and the one that show ingame

If there is 9 mobs up, you will need at least 9 ID. Because PW and the 8 lamps respawn almost instantly, you know they use 18 entry at least. Why? Probably because it's easier to consider them as different monster on both server and client. For similar reason, you can't have a mob repop when the body is still up on your screen. You need 2 ID.

Why there is 16+14 lamps? The last 2 forms might have 15 up instead of 8? Some might use "shadow" move like that Yagudo or ISNM puk and create multiple copy..there could be many reasons


I will rename the .dat to PW1, PW2, Lamp1, lamp2, lamp3 before popping it next time. It will be easy to see which one you're killing and which one is comming back to life every time it repop.

Not possible, huh? I take it you have the source code. Yes, we have many, many examples where it seems to work like this. Yes, all previous experience with dat mining supports this conclusion. But until someone either hacks the source or figures the mob out in game, you don't know, and people start saying things like:
"PW has 2 forms. 2 entries in the dat files, 2 forms." Wrong.
"The fight will feature 30 lamps. 30 entries in the dat files, 30 lamps." Wrong.
"Because there are 30 entries, there must be some sequence of 8 + 10 + 12 lamps or 8 + 8 + 4 + 4 + 2 + (whateverthehellsequenceaddsupto30) lamps, which tells us there will be 3/8/whatever number of forms". Again, wrong, though there is possibly some relationship that could be here, for example if there are 30 different forms resulting in 30 different lamp types-we just don't know until we fight it some more.

Is it entirely likely that the game works the way we think it does, and that we can correlate the dats to the behavior of the mob? Sure, because we know that SE's programming staff is run by 2 interns and a monkey with a severe fetish for reusing the same content, so it's unlikely they started doing something different. But we ALSO know that the battle designers have a fetish for gimmicks and especially enjoy throwing bullshit out there which is well-nigh impossible to figure out (lolAV). So feel free to continue calling me a moron that doesn't understand the basic implementation of the game, and when Pandy does the next crazy ass thing nobody was expecting, I'll be ready to read the next hastily constructed correlation between the dats and his behavior.

[Therin]

Not possible, huh? I take it you have the source code. Yes, we have many, many examples where it seems to work like this. Yes, all previous experience with dat mining supports this conclusion. But until someone either hacks the source or figures the mob out in game, you don't know, and people start saying things like:
"PW has 2 forms. 2 entries in the dat files, 2 forms." Wrong.
"The fight will feature 30 lamps. 30 entries in the dat files, 30 lamps." Wrong.
"Because there are 30 entries, there must be some sequence of 8 + 10 + 12 lamps or 8 + 8 + 4 + 4 + 2 + (whateverthehellsequenceaddsupto30) lamps, which tells us there will be 3/8/whatever number of forms". Again, wrong, though there is possibly some relationship that could be here, for example if there are 30 different forms resulting in 30 different lamp types-we just don't know until we fight it some more.

Is it entirely likely that the game works the way we think it does, and that we can correlate the dats to the behavior of the mob? Sure, because we know that SE's programming staff is run by 2 interns and a monkey with a severe fetish for reusing the same content, so it's unlikely they started doing something different. But we ALSO know that the battle designers have a fetish for gimmicks and especially enjoy throwing bullshit out there which is well-nigh impossible to figure out (lolAV). So feel free to continue calling me a moron that doesn't understand the basic implementation of the game, and when Pandy does the next crazy ass thing nobody was expecting, I'll be ready to read the next hastily constructed correlation between the dats and his behavior.

So you're arguing against everyone else is this thread simply to say that you have no proof that they are wrong and that we can't know anything for sure? Why are you even posting?

[shieldsofwindurst]

So you're arguing against everyone else is this thread simply to say that you have no proof that they are wrong and that we can't know anything for sure? Why are you even posting?

I'm posting to say that speculation is fine but just realize all you are doing is speculating. If you say that the structure of the dats Require certain behavior, then you're probably going to look like a moron after the next fight. We've gone down the rampant speculation path with AV and nobody wants that to happen again.

[Cloudius]

So feel free to continue calling me a moron

You're a moron.

[Kaylia]

Not possible, huh? I take it you have the source code. Yes, we have many, many examples where it seems to work like this. Yes, all previous experience with dat mining supports this conclusion. But until someone either hacks the source or figures the mob out in game, you don't know, and people start saying things like:
"PW has 2 forms. 2 entries in the dat files, 2 forms." Wrong.
"The fight will feature 30 lamps. 30 entries in the dat files, 30 lamps." Wrong.
"Because there are 30 entries, there must be some sequence of 8 + 10 + 12 lamps or 8 + 8 + 4 + 4 + 2 + (whateverthehellsequenceaddsupto30) lamps, which tells us there will be 3/8/whatever number of forms". Again, wrong, though there is possibly some relationship that could be here, for example if there are 30 different forms resulting in 30 different lamp types-we just don't know until we fight it some more.

Is it entirely likely that the game works the way we think it does, and that we can correlate the dats to the behavior of the mob? Sure, because we know that SE's programming staff is run by 2 interns and a monkey with a severe fetish for reusing the same content, so it's unlikely they started doing something different. But we ALSO know that the battle designers have a fetish for gimmicks and especially enjoy throwing bullshit out there which is well-nigh impossible to figure out (lolAV). So feel free to continue calling me a moron that doesn't understand the basic implementation of the game, and when Pandy does the next crazy ass thing nobody was expecting, I'll be ready to read the next hastily constructed correlation between the dats and his behavior.

Just go away...I don't even want to argue with this.

If there is 2 mobs up at the same up, there will be 2 differents dat entry. The end. We don't have the source code, but we still have access to memory value, dat files and game mechanics. If 8 lamps are up at the same time, they are going to use 8 out of the 30 .dat.

[Sagacious Sundi]

"PW has 2 forms. 2 entries in the dat files, 2 forms." Wrong.

It was rather common knowledge that 1 entry can have multiple models. It was said a few times (in both threads) that beastmen's elementals, avatars, and automatons (and Valkeng & Ob) are such examples. This speculation was, in fact, created more by the fight (because the first group said in turned into a battleclad AGAIN, although that hasn't been confirmed) than the .dats.

"The fight will feature 30 lamps. 30 entries in the dat files, 30 lamps." Wrong.
"Because there are 30 entries, there must be some sequence of 8 + 10 + 12 lamps or 8 + 8 + 4 + 4 + 2 + (whateverthehellsequenceaddsupto30) lamps, which tells us there will be 3/8/whatever number of forms". Again, wrong, though there is possibly some relationship that could be here, for example if there are 30 different forms resulting in 30 different lamp types-we just don't know until we fight it some more.

Um, exactly, we don't know. Those were just guess made by people. For all we know after it goes through the generals the number of lamps increase.

Also, if even SE could do the stuff you're saying (I'm not a programming expert, maybe they could), they have been sticking to many patterns and traditions in this game for 6ish years, even if it's not even necessary. For instance, zones having useless text in the .dats (any area that has a non-shield relic has all other final relic upgrade text; pretty much every area has Fellow text, maybe even cities; all ZNM ??? dialogue appears in every ZNM area, etc.)

[Kaylia]

Put it this way. If every lamp had the same ID (.dat entry), how would you tell the server which one you're attacking? Every lamps behave independantly, and you can kill a specific one.

While I agree they could change the whole targeting mechanics, it sure as hell won't happen for a specific mobs at this point in the game. Especially since it's not needed for anything.

[Mojo]

I know how the dats are structured, and I know what the correllations are that people have made. What you need to remember is that they are just that-correllations. Unless you've seen the actual code, you don't and can't know for sure how the dat files are actually used, especially in this case.

Let me explain this way. There's a concept called "the mental model" which discusses how people make a model in their head to explain how things work when they can't see the entire process. For example, many people think that if the air in the house is cold, the fastest way to warm up a house is to crank the thermostat way higher than the temperature you want, as that will result in the heater/furnace producing more and/or hotter air, resulting in the rooms warming up quicker. This is, in fact, the way the heater in a car works. However, in many if not most houses, the furnace has 2 settings-100% on and 100% off, and cranking the temperature to 80 will result in the same speed as cranking it to 120.

The point is the way that you think it works, based on what you can actually see, isn't always right. Sometimes it is-which is why dat mining is a useful process-but sometimes it isn't. Speculating on the behavior of a mob based on the dats seems to be in this second category, especially considering that people who made statements based on the 32 dat file entries have been wrong about 1. the number of PW forms 2. the number of PW lamps per form and 3. the total number of lamps you'd have to fight through the course of the fight. I don't expect the pattern will change any time soon.

Not that I have anything against dat file speculation in this thread-I mean, at least it's better than coming up AV-style theories while we wait for another LS to farm up a pop set-but it should be understood as just that, speculation. I have plenty of faith in SE's programmers to be lazy and do things they way they've always done them, so your statement about them being forced to work in the confines of the system they've created has a strong chance of being valid. However, it'd be stupid to not at least acknowledge the fact that software can, in fact, work any way you want, and that there might be some manner of different paradigm at work here, especially when we already have multiple examples of previous correlations failing to match reality.

None of those Pandemonium Warden statements are accurate. The number of Pandemonium Warden forms does indeed appear to be two. There is a Dvergr form, which will probably drop loot when killed, and a doppelganger form. How they interact together is not fully known, but an understanding is developing. I don't recall anyone ever speculating on how many lamps per form there would be before Pandemonium Warden was first popped and it became well known. In fact, I don't even think the word form was even used before then. It was simply pointed out that there were two warden and thirty lamp IDs in the DATs. Nobody ever said that you would only have to fight a total of thirty lamps either. The only thing that can be said in those regards is that there are only 30 unique lamps.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in complete opposition to wild speculation based solely on DAT files. Developing an idea in this situation is foolish without observing the actual mob. If you treat the DAT files like some kind of panacea then you truly do not understand their significance and purpose.

However, in situations such as these, arming yourself with knowledge from the DAT files can be quite useful. It was already pointed out, but Zhayolm Remnants is a fantastic example of this. Before anyone had encountered them, it was possible to predict what mobs dropped pieces of 35 gear and where you would find them. Although the DATs did not explain how to pop them, knowing what to look for was incredibly helpful. Imagine trying to solve that mystery without knowledge ascertained from DAT files.

Anyways.... I made a version of the Aydeewa Subterrane NPC list that was modified so that it was possible to distinguish between each form of Pandemonium Warden as well as all of the Pandemonium Lamps. It looks like it was lost with the forum switch though, so here it is again.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=A3QFS825

This is a package containing the modified DAT as well as the original. There are two small batch files that you can use to make changing the DAT your game is using easy. The batch files will only work if you have FFXI installed to the default directory though.