MDB + -Magic% Cap Question

[Vail]

Don't more merits into Shellra 5 give +MDB?

more merits in shellra V adds more -magic damage taken

[Vyvian]

Merits in Barspells give MDB+2 per merit, against spells of the matching element.

Also given the formula mentioned above:

Damage Received ~= (Real Damage) * (Magic Attack Bonus) / (Magic Defense Bonus) * (1 - Magic Damage Taken) * (Resist Rate)

Received = Base * MAB/MDB * 1-damage% * resist

Assume you don't resist

MDB+50 = 1.5
Magic Damage -50% = 1.0 - .50 = 0.5

Received = [(Base * MAB)/1.5] * 0.5
R= (Base * MAB)/3
Damage received = Base * MAB *0.333333~

So regardless of MAB, you will always take 1/3 of what you would have taken if you had no gear or buffs. You only require the Base and the MAB values if you're looking to get an exact number, but the rest of the values can confirm it will be 1/3 the normal damage in that situation (50MDB + Magic Damage -50%)

[VZX]

Merits in Barspells give MDB+2 per merit, against spells of the matching element.

AFAIK, elemental resistance+ is a different term to MDB and MDT

[Freysi]

AFAIK, elemental resistance+ is a different term to MDB and MDT

The text for Barspell merits says +2 potency and +2 Magic Defense Bonus per upgrade (which is only in effect for magic attacks of that particular element).

Then again, already been mentioned in this thread that the text on merits might not be perfect.

[Suiram]

AFAIK, elemental resistance+ is a different term to MDB and MDT

Barspells give elemental resistance, which you are correct has nothing to do with MDB or damage taken, just increases the chance for 1/2, 1/4 or 1/8 damage. However, barspell merits, as well as blessed briault, have the additional effect of adding MDB against spells and WSs of the element of the barspell. This has been tested.

[Force-Attuned Krogoth]

Um, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure shell doesn't affect breath spells. A very noticeable way to see this is Kirin. Heat Breath from manticores normally would cap at 500, and it's true for Kirin. Of course, thereafter it becomes subject to day bonus/penalty, resists, reductions from positioning, and damage reduction. If shell is direct magic damage reduction, it should apply to breath attacks, as I understand them. However, if it's MDB, the breath will bypass it. I've never seen shell to have an effect on Kirin's heat breath, have you?

[Amele]

Um, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure shell doesn't affect breath spells. A very noticeable way to see this is Kirin. Heat Breath from manticores normally would cap at 500, and it's true for Kirin. Of course, thereafter it becomes subject to day bonus/penalty, resists, reductions from positioning, and damage reduction. If shell is direct magic damage reduction, it should apply to breath attacks, as I understand them. However, if it's MDB, the breath will bypass it. I've never seen shell to have an effect on Kirin's heat breath, have you?

huh?

either both MDB and -%magic apply or neither do. they both reduce the same kind of damage. there's no reason to expect that MDB is bypassed in situations where shell isn't and vice versa.

here's my counter question: have you ever actually made a point of testing whether shell was on the target or not in a controllable situation? (should be easy to do with a regular manticore) considering most groups are either 60 second burning kirin or kiting him the likelihood of heat breath hitting the same target in controllable circumstances is slim at best - especially since not having good shell and being in range of kirin is asking to die to stonega.


edit: as for whether shell is magic damage or mdb we've tested it; it's -%magic taken. this is easily verified by testing how much effect a known quantity of MDB has while shell is in effect.

[Suiram]

either both MDB and -%magic apply or neither do. they both reduce the same kind of damage. there's no reason to expect that MDB is bypassed in situations where shell isn't and vice versa.

This is actually false. For instance 1000 Needles (BLU spell) is affected by shell but not MDB. Quick Draw from COR is affected by MDB but not shell. There are other examples, too. Certain types of spells and abilities simply bypass certain stages in the damage calculation. Another example is Nether Blast, which as most know is affected by both MDB and shell, but ignores the "resist" stage.

[Amele]

This is actually false. For instance 1000 Needles (BLU spell) is affected by shell but not MDB. Quick Draw from COR is affected by MDB but not shell. There are other examples, too. Certain types of spells and abilities simply bypass certain stages in the damage calculation. Another example is Nether Blast, which as most know is affected by both MDB and shell, but ignores the "resist" stage.

so we're claiming that heat breath is a partially fixed calculation? that's a different statement than "Breath attacks aren't affected by Shell and therefore it's MDB"

[Suiram]

I wasn't making any claims about Heat Breath, I was just pointing out that it's possible. I'm not sure what the deal is with Heat Breath, but I'm pretty sure I remember aurik showing in some other thread that shell doesn't affect it. Not sure about MDB.

[Callisto]

It's hard to easily test it accurately during a hectic fight like Kirin, but I can say as mostly useless anectdotal evidence that if it's a full-on facial HB neither my Magic Reduction set or native MAB seems to reduce damage by anything noticeable, it still pwns my face when he spams it.

[VZX]

I wasn't making any claims about Heat Breath, I was just pointing out that it's possible. I'm not sure what the deal is with Heat Breath, but I'm pretty sure I remember aurik showing in some other thread that shell doesn't affect it. Not sure about MDB.

Assuming it works the same way as BLU's breath spells, then day/weather, MAB/MDB, stave bonus term are not part of the breath damage calculation.

[Amele]

Assuming it works the same way as BLU's breath spells, then day/weather, MAB/MDB, stave bonus term are not part of the breath damage calculation.

doesn't shell still apply for those spells?

[Suiram]

I don't think so, a while back I was testing something else on weapons and as a side thought when I was done I figured I'd check out breath, too. I'm pretty sure damage wasn't reduced from breath spell, but I didn't screenshot it or write anything down so I guess I could check again later if I need to.

[Nadia]

Breath damage is a different type of damage from magic damage. Shell is magic damage taken-, and hence doesn't reduce damage taken from breath damage. Breath damage is usually determined by current HP/level, and unaffected by MAB or MDB. (In fact, I can't think of anything that doesn't follow those rules, but you never know.)

[Suiram]

Breath damage is categorically different from magic damage, I think most everyone agrees. The dispute I believe is whether or not Breath WSs become magical damage when they take the form of a BLU spell, like how 1000 needles physical damage is changed to magic, or whether they become "Breath Spells". I believe they are Breath Spells, due to my recollections about them not being affected by weapon magic damage cut as I said in the earlier post.

[Nadia]

I got the impression some people were still confusing the two, but anyway, yes, breath damage WS are still breath damage when used as blue magic, this is simple enough to test. It isn't affected by shell, innate magic damage reduction, or MDB, and breath damage taken gear affects it. (And worth mentioning since there has been a lot of misinformation regarding it, the damage is affected by monster correlation too.)

[Linktri]

Shellra V does provide MDB+1 point (Which is shit. MDB I trait is MDB+10) for each upgrade. That's a total of MDB+5 points for a capped Shellra V. That's equal to 1/2 MDB I job trait. on top of a straight damage reduction. If I remember right... that damage reduction is capped at 50% but MDB is not capped. Damage reduction isn't a trait. MDB won't stack though, because MDB is a trait. You can't have MDB I + MDB I = MDB II. You can enhance it through equipment by adding points to the bonus but the only spells that provide MDB are Barelement/effect. Bar-spells only provide specific MDB to the element or effect that they are intended to block.

Shellra V level 5 = +5 points MDB and 27.4% Damage reduction. (calculated separately, IIRC, they add a total of %27.4)
White Mage gets MDB III at about 12.6%
Barelement effect level 5: capped at +10 MDB to specific element at approximately 9%

I don't remember the order that they are calculated in or even if I got it all right. But if Thunder IV does a base 1000 dmg to a White Mage with Barthundra (5) and Shellra V (5) up, it would end up doing about 575 dmg. If I've got Stoneskin up eating about 300ish dmg, I'll get swatted for about 275.

Since you're not talking about a White Mage and Citadel Buster is non-elemental, there are less options available to reduce damage to most other classes. BLU is one of the exceptions.

[Braveheart]

I’ll leave the math to others, bascally u want to stand CB here s how I do it. Im a hume pld and regularly stand CB only time I don’t is if someone misses stun on Dissapation (buff remover) right before it starts and mages cant get buffs up on time. Usually I macro Mgic def in here s my set up

1 mermans ring 1 BQ ring (merman x2 if no ring) 1 coral earring ethereal earring Iron ram lance dmg down 10% usually a pole strap too lamia mantle +1 (Resentment cape would be better option tho) lamian bow I use tacos on him but toying with the idea of using spaggetti perscota to boost hp. i have coral scale mail for this, but often I don’t use it as I can end up with over eager blms lifting hate some just don’t know when to stop nuking.

Im usually buffed with dream shroud shell V and a cor roll forget the name of it & light carol. It is light based ppl will disagree but its what ive found.

I reserve flash as my hate tools to make sure hate is on me from 10 down wards while everyone else runs clear. Hp wise, as it does nothing spectaular during countdown u should be full health mine is around 1440 mark with 4-5 hp merits /nin I find with that set up it usually lands for 1000-1100 dmg. Ethereal makes sure I got enough mp for a cure IV afterwards.

Try that set up out see how it goes.

[Amele]

@linktri: did the whitemage in your particular test use a blessed briault? (and if so did you account for it?) I haven't seen an MDB effect in my tests of shell - although my tests have not been particularly exhaustive.