Ruke's All-Purpose Thread of DA/Askar/Haste/etc and Win!

[Amele]

You have to take the extra tp gain/WS into account from the DA.

we'll say 1300 raging rush right? 2% DA at a typical (10%+5%+5%+2%) 23% base is going to be a % hit rate increase of 1.6%~

say, 1300 damage raging rush on average, 1.6% more often... 20.8 damage to make up. I would be surprised if 20.8 damage isn't made up just by wearing ares during weaponskill honestly. hell, depending on how much more you really hit for with the ares's cuirass it's entirely possible the bulk of this will be covered in regular swings.

Edit: and this presupposes that you never waste a double attack proc on the swing that got you to 100 anyway.

Edit2: and how come my name isn't in the subject too?! *g*

[mikazuki]

i'll read the topic you linked later ruke, ignore the following question if it's already answered:

does your spreadsheet calculate for different mobs by % fought of total:
5 pops mob A
3 pops mob B
3 pops mob C
8 pops mob D
X = total
then 5/X damage with values for mob A, 3/X damage with values for mob B... etc.
A and B can be the difference between skoffins and mmj blm, or 81/83 colibri and so on.
naturally there's a slight challenge to determining the proportion of a level at which a given mob will pop at - but we're already beyond the point where the time invested would have a return in reducing hours meritting personally.

i vote the topic is renamed Excel Saga

[Thorny]

we'll say 1300 raging rush right? 2% DA at a typical (10%+5%+5%+2%) 23% base is going to be a % hit rate increase of 1.6%~

say, 1300 damage raging rush on average, 1.6% more often... 20.8 damage to make up. I would be surprised if 20.8 damage isn't made up just by wearing ares during weaponskill honestly. hell, depending on how much more you really hit for with the ares's cuirass it's entirely possible the bulk of this will be covered in regular swings.

Edit: and this presupposes that you never waste a double attack proc on the swing that got you to 100 anyway.

Edit2: and how come my name isn't in the subject too?! *g*

Not that I disagree with ares' being a better tp piece, but isn't the discussion about tp pieces(ie: the Askar Korazin user could still WS in ares' cuirass)?

[Tan]

Not that I disagree with ares' being a better tp piece, but isn't the discussion about tp pieces(ie: the Askar Korazin user could still WS in ares' cuirass)?

Read up 2-3 posts, he has a breakdown for Melee hits and then someone replies that WS damage matters and then accounts for that.

[Amele]

i'll read the topic you linked later ruke, ignore the following question if it's already answered:

does your spreadsheet calculate for different mobs by % fought of total:
5 pops mob A
3 pops mob B
3 pops mob C
8 pops mob D
X = total
then 5/X damage with values for mob A, 3/X damage with values for mob B... etc.
A and B can be the difference between skoffins and mmj blm, or 81/83 colibri and so on.
naturally there's a slight challenge to determining the proportion of a level at which a given mob will pop at - but we're already beyond the point where the time invested would have a return in reducing hours meritting personally.

i vote the topic is renamed Excel Saga

unless he's changed it I don't think it does. but I could build that into a spreadsheet eventually if we had numbers we trusted.

[Max™]

I wouldn't WS in Are's for RR ever, or Askar, I'd use a normal Hauby and shoot for a 108/118 Dex number during WS before I used Are's or Askar for RR.

That's a big part of why Salvage has so little interest for me, Are's legs are jesusgood, Body is wtfawesome for Steel Cyclone, set bonus is hax for Jump, I wouldn't replace my current TP build with any of it, and I wouldn't use any of it but legs for RR, except on very high eva/def targets, when I'd probably use Steel and a different build.

[mikazuki]

the first spreadsheet i worked on started from the damage equations (prior to 2h changes) though i hadn't felt the need to revise it before formatting my pc because the information i wanted from it was just str to atk comparisons; given that reformat i can't offer a sample, though i can say i made the mistake of making the table largely horizontal - if i were to start over it'd be vertical for scrolling convenience!

does excel automatically take out the line breaks in a function? i seperated stages of calculation with intermediate values displayed (and labelled^_^ ) though that's my idiot-proofing, it's not really necessary.

in addition to losing attacks if the mob dies on the first swing of a double attack, you also lose tp if a multi-hit WS doesn't fully connect due to intervening mob death, now...
if you kill 1/DD of the mobs in a pt (1/3 as a rough estimate, yes there are lots of reasons why this isn't remotely accurate) and you say ~10% of those kills would have had a double attack but the mob died first - you see the shape of determining how DA gives you less than its potential.
for simplicity i would describe this on a spreadsheet as - DA gives a *negligible* amount less damage than that predicted.
and likewise - multi-hit WS give a lower damage contribution than that predicted.
and the same is naturally true when dual wielding or using multi-hit weapon.
in terms of a WS not finishing you can say it becomes more important to wait if the mob is on low hp~
although it's overly detailed, where a situation offers nearly equal values someone can look at the notes and choose accordingly.

[Thorny]

Read up 2-3 posts, he has a breakdown for Melee hits and then someone replies that WS damage matters and then accounts for that.

They said that askar gets you extra ws over time, not that actual ws damage matters. Amele was trying to use ares giving better WS numbers as a counterargument, which doesn't fit.

[Khrno]

I wouldn't WS in Are's for RR ever, or Askar, I'd use a normal Hauby and shoot for a 108/118 Dex number during WS before I used Are's or Askar for RR.

That's a big part of why Salvage has so little interest for me, Are's legs are jesusgood, Body is wtfawesome for Steel Cyclone, set bonus is hax for Jump, I wouldn't replace my current TP build with any of it, and I wouldn't use any of it but legs for RR, except on very high eva/def targets, when I'd probably use Steel and a different build.

I've had noticed that RR is somewhat more consistent that Guillotine, but for Guillo I'm diying to WS in full Ares, Raging Rush I'm still not too familiar with it, but it might work just as well as for Guillo and Penta.

[Amele]

They said that askar gets you extra ws over time, not that actual ws damage matters. Amele was trying to use ares giving better WS numbers as a counterargument, which doesn't fit.

I didn't want to deal with doing the work to figure out a real situation, since giving askar the first 2% of DA is too generous already.

if you want me to work out a back of the envelope with better numbers I can but it'll take some time since I'm in an exp party

[Amele]

assumes pdif_avg = pdif_mid in the range where pdif is not constrained by 1.0 floor. truncated the 3rd digit of cRatio and pdif to make my head hurt less.


D96 weapon, 750~attack, 110~str g.colibri target = regular damage swings of approx. 107*1.7~ = 181 per swing.

base DA of 10+5+5+2% = 22%

6 hit setup.

100 attack cycle.

ares bonus of 7 str and 17 attack = +2 fstr (109 ttl) and +0.07 pdif_mid = 109*1.77 = 192.3

capped accuracy.

obviously raging rush is harder to estimate for since it's not as straightforward to get an average hit off it; consulted a friend who has ares's body and he said his parsed average was 'about 1000 vs. colibri'. I felt that some people might complain about my reducing the estimate for ws from 1300 to 1000 (since it favors increased tp damage over increased ws damage); so I'll use 1300 still.



192.3 * 122 = 23,460.6 + 122/5 *1300 = 55180.6 (ares)

181 * 124 = 22,444 + 124/5 * 1300 = 54684.0 (askar)

QED

[mikazuki]

As a start, these are the values that are set on a spreadsheet:

Parameters:
2H
1H (single)
1H (dual wield)
HTH

WSK (weapon skill used)

TIME (normally 1hr)

PC.Variables:
LVL

DMG
DLY

STR
DEX
VIT
AGI
INT
MND
CHR

MSK(skill in mainhand weapon)
OSK(skill in offhand weapon)

TRP(triple attack%)
DBL(double attack%)
KCK(kick attack%)
HST(haste%)
DWD(dual wield%)
-DLY(-delay%)

STP(store tp)
ZAN(zanshin)
CRT(critical%)

ATK
OATK
ACC
OACC

Mob.Variables:
LVL

VIT
AGI

DEF
EVA

Resultant.Values:
WRK (weapon rank)
fSTR
B.DMG (base damage)
lvDIF
cRATIO
fMAX
fMIN
pDIF
Alpha
WSC
WSBD (weapon skill base damage)
fTP
Acc
TPH (tp/hit)
TPHO (tp/hit offhand)

obvious things missing:
*does not include rsk/r.acc/r.atk
*does not include berserk/aggressor/meditate/overwhelm/jump/highjump
/sneakattack/trickattack/etc.
*does not seperate stats during tp/ws phases

also you can expand terms to include different sources (like str from food opposed to str from merits...). perhaps it's better to start with a spreadsheet that just gives TP and WS equip totals for relevant stats (ie. haste not included in WS and CHR not included in TP).

please edit in where i've missed something, a value needs to be expanded or you don't like the format.

it's not too hard to include a lot of the job abilities but for something like aggressor the player might switch equipment to reflect the acc gain and so on...

[Khrno]

obviously raging rush is harder to estimate for since it's not as straightforward to get an average hit off it; consulted a friend who has ares's body and he said his parsed average was 'about 1000 vs. colibri'. I felt that some people might complain about my reducing the estimate for ws from 1300 to 1000 (since it favors increased tp damage over increased ws damage); so I'll use 1300 still.

Sorry, I didn't understand that last part.

Why are you using 1300 unstead of 1000 as the RR dmg? I still haven't seen anyone (and there are quite a few full merited (GA) decked WARs which I use to merit with, and 800-1000 is the norm for their average ws depending camps. Myself doing 900-950.

Or is that 1300 including something else?

[Amele]

Sorry, I didn't understand that last part.

Why are you using 1300 unstead of 1000 as the RR dmg? I still haven't seen anyone (and there are quite a few full merited (GA) decked WARs which I use to merit with, and 800-1000 is the norm for their average ws depending camps. Myself doing 900-950.

Or is that 1300 including something else?

1300 is being intentionally generous because higher ws damage improves the effect of DA from TP. - a lower weaponskill average just makes Ares's Cuirass that much better in the comparison, so since I had thrown out 1300 at random earlier, I stuck with it since it was unfavorable to the piece I was arguing was better...

..as you can see, even with unrealistically optimistic RR numbers, ares's still wins over askar.

[Khrno]

Oh ok, gotcha.

[RKenshin]

I'd like to see your numbers showing the ares body out damaging the askar

I merely entered the values into that spreadsheet, and that's the final result.

You have to take the extra tp gain/WS into account from the DA.

It is taken into account in the spreadsheet, as you can see.

i'll read the topic you linked later ruke, ignore the following question if it's already answered:

does your spreadsheet calculate for different mobs by % fought of total:
5 pops mob A
3 pops mob B
3 pops mob C
8 pops mob D
X = total
then 5/X damage with values for mob A, 3/X damage with values for mob B... etc.
A and B can be the difference between skoffins and mmj blm, or 81/83 colibri and so on.
naturally there's a slight challenge to determining the proportion of a level at which a given mob will pop at - but we're already beyond the point where the time invested would have a return in reducing hours meritting personally.

i vote the topic is renamed Excel Saga

All damage averages (WS, Acc, TP, Crit, etc) are input fields and are not calculated. Calculated fields are shaded blue or green or blue/green, whatever color it was!

The spreadsheet was meant as a comparison for 'what's doing more damage?' when you have the averages and information from one setup vs the averages and information of another setup. IE, if I had one PT as NIN/WAR in a sushi build with 2x% haste and the results had X for WS/Acc/TP/Crit average, and another PT as NIN/WAR in a meat build with 1x% haste and the results had Y for WS/Acc/TP/Crit average, I could input the damage information and the gear information into the spreadsheet and it would calculate which setup was higher on DoT to a rather accurate (but of course, slightly exaggerated in both areas) figure. Comparatively though, it would be just about 100% accurate. At least, it will be once it's finished.

Currently the only things I have left to do is fix the TP calculation per hit for a few setups, and the total swings generated by multi-hit weapons.

But I haven't had time to work on it on months now. D:

[Turambar]

Bottom line is the same though, right? That Askar body pails in comparison to Ares body?

[Max™]

Bottom line is the same though, right? That Askar body buckets in comparison to Ares body?

I'd bet if you weren't at capped acc, that either would be inferior to a simple Haubergeon, nevermind +1, or Adaberk/+1.

[Amele]

Bottom line is the same though, right? That Askar body pails in comparison to Ares body?

yes

[kayn]

someone tell me if i'm doing this right. so if your avg dmg is 200/swing and you do 1000 swings ares body will add 5 dmg/swing netting you 5000 dmg. Askar body will add 20 swings netting 20*200 = 4000 dmg. But if your avg dmg is 250 a swing ares will still give you 5k dmg but askar now gives you 250*20 = 5k dmg so if you're dmg per swing > 250 askar is better?