Ruke's All-Purpose Thread of DA/Askar/Haste/etc and Win!

[Nameless]

Yea, accuracy is important, I didn't say dump 30 accuracy or 15% hit rate for a hit build. But for something like 15 accuracy, I think hit build is way more important, especially now a day you get DE. Like I said again, I would like to find a breakeven point for it. Tho in most case, you will find hit build worth more than the amount of accuracy you can find on a piece of armor.

[Amele]

assuming a zanshin swing doesn't get an accuracy bonus - you maximize the effect of zanshin at 50% accuracy.

it's better to think of zanshin as a minor bonus to your accuracy.

[RKenshin]

Zanshin is just about the crappiest DD trait in the game. D:

It should never, ever, eeeever be a deciding factor in any gear choice.

What does it matter if you can get 100% TP in 5 hits (or 4 or 6), if in the end you end up hitting those 5 and missing 2 on the way to 100%?

Most important factor is Acc, I understand that much better now, after that then throw all the stats you want, but if you don't hit, it doesn't matter how fast or how many times you need to hit, just remember that, and don't discard Acc so easily.

I agree that the most important factor is accuracy, but build to a 6-hit setup follows very closely after that... And you actually have to balance it.

As much as I may preach and agree about the importance of accuracy, a 6-hit build is a rather drastic improvement in total DoT over a 7-hit.

Using the same numbers in the earlier chart, and between two of the exact same gear setups, it would take a loss of about 7% total accuracy for the 6-hit to equate to the 7-hit. Which is about 14-28 acc, depending on the conversion.

I think he's referring to how at higher levels of accuracy, such as the ones we 2hers get into these days, that it feels more like 3~4=1%.

Just what I thought when I read that.

This is correcto!... At 80-95% acc on VT+ to IT+ mobs, comparing parses at different amounts of acc leads me to believe that 1% acc = 3-4 acc.

[Kirschy]

I should probably make a new thread for it. But I've personalli always felt that Acc->Hit Rate% was never linear. I feel it most when I'm doing an evasion build and have to play around with haste vs evasion+ in equipment and songs. But also shows itself in parsers when playing /w Accuracy gear. I've never had any good tests or parses to back myself up though, but if there's data/parses other people had, I for one would be very interested in seeing what people found.

[Khrno]

I agree that the most important factor is accuracy, but build to a 6-hit setup follows very closely after that... And you actually have to balance it.

As much as I may preach and agree about the importance of accuracy, a 6-hit build is a rather drastic improvement in total DoT over a 7-hit.

Using the same numbers in the earlier chart, and between two of the exact same gear setups, it would take a loss of about 7% total accuracy for the 6-hit to equate to the 7-hit. Which is about 14-28 acc, depending on the conversion.

I was just telling Nameless since he is a pro-GS user, and as much as I like GS myself, even with merits, the Acc drop is rather notable, and giving up 22.5 Acc from body slot to gain a 6-hit build might be well counterproductive.

You very weel could give the numbers now, but I'm going to try just for the sake of it to find the accuracy difference between wearing Adaberk and Ares (I just got my 35 today, now just have to get the Ingots) at some HNM, and parse the fight, I know I won't be getting the 6-hit build with it so I'm not looking forward to the dmg but to the acc, and to compare with an older parser.

Anyway I very well understand that saying, having a 88-90% Acc at something like Mamools isn't bad, hell I was saying that just the other day in the drk merits thread, so I understand what all of you are saying about the benefit of a 6-hit over a few acc.

[Nameless]

I agree with you Khrno, I will never ever use ares over adaberk (you get the idea, aside from easy stuff that you find yourself with capped acc). However, if it is aurum vs adaberk, I might have to think about it. It is about a 16 accuracy and 2 str and 2 attack difference. It is a hard decision, but I think a 6 hit build is more than worth it, consider my drk is already 45-55 melee vs WS ratio at 7 hit build, wsing more is just money. Tho I don't think I will make the same decision if 5 min recast DE isn't available. It just makes the loss of accuracy a bit easier to swallow.

[Nameless]

And omg, when did you turn into a taru, Kirschy? I thought you are a hume female.

[Khrno]

I agree with you Khrno, I will never ever use ares over adaberk (you get the idea, aside from easy stuff that you find yourself with capped acc). However, if it is aurum vs adaberk, I might have to think about it. It is about a 16 accuracy and 2 str and 2 attack difference. It is a hard decision, but I think a 6 hit build is more than worth it, consider my drk is already 45-55 melee vs WS ratio at 7 hit build, wsing more is just money. Tho I don't think I will make the same decision if 5 min recast DE isn't available. It just makes the loss of accuracy a bit easier to swallow.

I think that Aurum is pretty hot for merits too since it has that dex that helps a bit, but does the 2% DA from Askar outdamage it? Saying that Aurum caps you and Askar doesn't on Acc (even if it's a 2% or so difference lol).

And yea I saw Kirschy avatar like the past month or so, and damn that taru looks cute with Apoc, Adaberk and pink flower on the head.

[RKenshin]

I should probably make a new thread for it. But I've personalli always felt that Acc->Hit Rate% was never linear. I feel it most when I'm doing an evasion build and have to play around with haste vs evasion+ in equipment and songs. But also shows itself in parsers when playing /w Accuracy gear. I've never had any good tests or parses to back myself up though, but if there's data/parses other people had, I for one would be very interested in seeing what people found.

Yeah I agree, pretty certain it is not linear at all.

[Nameless]

lol yea.

Thing is, Algol is harder to reach 6 hit with askar. That will mean that you will have to use the store tp ring + something else, maybe a chiv chain instead of pcharm or prudence or even ancient torque. Otherwise you will have to use askar body to ws. In other words, you will need +29 store tp to reach the hit build and still able to use anything other than askar body for ws.

But anyway, I am pretty anal about my ws equips since that's where the damage comes from. While I can just wear askar body full time for both tp and ws to reach 6 hit build with only +27 store tp, ultimately I want to get aurum's body to free up my body slot for ws.

[Gunslinger]

Aurum really shines on drg, love mine so far. Given the chance to upgrade Ares I would probably do it if I had extra gil laying around (and could if I felt like staying up late enough to do Salvage with my LS), but it would almost be a drg/mage piece for me only.

Combining all of the instant TP that drg/sam has with jumps, meditate, and the store tp, it's very easy to pull off a super reliable 6-hit (don't have to land full penta, etc). The added attack/accuracy over askar is just icing on the cake.

I could see this being more of a debatable topic for a scythe drk or great axe war, but the lower delay on polearms would probably make a reliable 6-hit outside of askar/aurum unlikely for drg (or a drk using great sword, as nameless has said).

Edit... and somehow I missed like a page of discussion. lol. Anyway, this was meant for the end of page 3, but I'll leave it up anyway!

[Miraun]

Combining all of the instant TP that drg/sam has with jumps, meditate, and the store tp, it's very easy to pull off a super reliable 6-hit (don't have to land full penta, etc). The added attack/accuracy over askar is just icing on the cake.

I could see this being more of a debatable topic for a scythe drk or great axe war, but the lower delay on polearms would probably make a reliable 6-hit outside of askar/aurum unlikely for drg (or a drk using great sword, as nameless has said).

Are other DRGs really having that many problems getting a 6 hit combo? on DRG/SAM, 5 hit Penta yields 20% TP without a DA or TA, then 16% per melee hit with only a Brutal and Rajas ring. If you're concerned about a 6 hit combo with non-penta thrusting, or with another WS / Sub, then yes, I can see hitting a 6 hit combo being much more difficult. But if I miss a hit, I usually just throw on conte legs and jump once to make up the difference.

I guess conceptually, Penta thrust plus 5 hits is actually a 10 hit combo...

[Kaylia]

Zanshin is just about the crappiest DD trait in the game. D:

It should never, ever, eeeever be a deciding factor in any gear choice.

Why the hate on Zanshin? In the end, it's still a "2~12 accuracy bonus" (for every 5% zanshin). I know you should always aim for 90-95% accuracy, but in reality, it won't always happen, and Zanshin bonus will help a bit. Not to mention it has a small chance to save you on those missed weapon skill that pop up occasionally

A piece of equipment with Zanshin alone would be horrible, but the bonus can't be ignored either when you compare it to another armor. I would probably take a 5% zanshin over 3 accuracy

[Max™]

I just can't help but think that the Hachiryu set might have something ridiculous like +20 store TP with it all equipped.

I would find my Adaberk lust much less diminished with Hachiryu, and Zahak's mail in my pocket.

TP Hachi, RR Zahak's, lose a bit of gravy on both, but gain the 5~3% Crit which ain't bad at all.

I'd still sell the Zahak's if I got an Adaberk, I'd probably hang onto the Hachi for fashion unless I got a super offer for it.

[Kaylia]

Anyone tried 2 piece of Hachiryu yet? Do you get any tp store for it? I would guess no, but who knows

[ringthree]

This is correcto!... At 80-95% acc on VT+ to IT+ mobs, comparing parses at different amounts of acc leads me to believe that 1% acc = 3-4 acc.

I understand what you are say, but just wanted to not that it might be caused because of the fact that the closer you get to the cap, and thus the percentage of the missed attacks caused by built-in automatic failures instead of a lack of accuracy increases exponentially, it will make it look like there are diminishing returns from accuracy from the accuracy calculation.

So I agree with what you are saying, that you will need more +accuracy the closer you move toward the cap to increase actual accuracy percentage, I just wanted to emphasize that this is not because the accuracy calculation changes the closer you move to the cap, but because of the inherent "auto-misses" built into the accuracy calculations.

Sound about right?

[Miraun]

Now gimme mah pizza!

I'll either call and have it randomly delivered one day when you get back on campus, or I'll get it for whenever I make it up there for a BSGO meeting... If you ever come to the damn meetings!

[Gunslinger]

Are other DRGs really having that many problems getting a 6 hit combo? on DRG/SAM, 5 hit Penta yields 20% TP without a DA or TA, then 16% per melee hit with only a Brutal and Rajas ring. If you're concerned about a 6 hit combo with non-penta thrusting, or with another WS / Sub, then yes, I can see hitting a 6 hit combo being much more difficult. But if I miss a hit, I usually just throw on conte legs and jump once to make up the difference.

I guess conceptually, Penta thrust plus 5 hits is actually a 10 hit combo...

I guess my definition of 6-hit would be for "true 6-hit," or 6 normal hits without the added TP from penta.

The real problem is with how reliable it is- even though we should all be at a 95% acc cap in an ideal world, there's still times when I don't land 5/5 penta hits (somewhere there's a thread with how much harder it becomes statistically to land a multi-hit WS, even with capped acc).

And while it's easy to pop a jump and make up for a missed hit with conte, etc, it's impossible to do each time (I'm able to WS about every 35 seconds on average without meditate/jumps, meaning my timer would only be up about 1/3 of the time to catch a miss). Also, jumps can miss too, and always seem to when you want the TP the most =/

If you cover your bases with a "true 6-hit," those jumps just become bonus TP, effectively giving you a 5-hit build.

Can't go wrong with sTP ^^

[RKenshin]

Main problem I have with my DRG and keeping the 6-hit setup is just when I miss hits on Penta. Even if it doesn't happen often it's still an annoyance.

Why the hate on Zanshin? In the end, it's still a "2~12 accuracy bonus" (for every 5% zanshin). I know you should always aim for 90-95% accuracy, but in reality, it won't always happen, and Zanshin bonus will help a bit. Not to mention it has a small chance to save you on those missed weapon skill that pop up occasionally

A piece of equipment with Zanshin alone would be horrible, but the bonus can't be ignored either when you compare it to another armor. I would probably take a 5% zanshin over 3 accuracy

It's not hating on it, it's being blunt and honest over how effective the ability is. People often think it's much better than it really is.

To start, 5% zanshin gives much less than an equivalent of adding 2-12 accuracy. It's more like the equivalent of adding .8 to 3 acc, depending on where you are in a range of 75% to 95% accuracy.

Also it's never been confirmed that it procs on a missed WS, at least from what I've seen. I'm still uncertain.

/whips out old graph
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3513/ffxi3815gm3.jpg

I understand what you are say, but just wanted to not that it might be caused because of the fact that the closer you get to the cap, and thus the percentage of the missed attacks caused by built-in automatic failures instead of a lack of accuracy increases exponentially, it will make it look like there are diminishing returns from accuracy from the accuracy calculation.

So I agree with what you are saying, that you will need more +accuracy the closer you move toward the cap to increase actual accuracy percentage, I just wanted to emphasize that this is not because the accuracy calculation changes the closer you move to the cap, but because of the inherent "auto-misses" built into the accuracy calculations.

Sound about right?

Yes, this is why I agreed with the theory that Accuracy isn't a linear increase. What you just described would basically fit a plot curve, which is what I think accuracy follows. I never said that something like that wasn't likely? I think it's way more likely than not.

I'll either call and have it randomly delivered one day when you get back on campus, or I'll get it for whenever I make it up there for a BSGO meeting... If you ever come to the damn meetings!

I'll be there!

[Kaylia]

At 95% accuracy, a 5% Zanshin will increase your accuracy to 95.24%. I supose I should have said "1acc" instead of "2acc", but technically, it doesnt really matter because at this point, no amount of accuracy will allow you to go above this cap.

50% is 6acc instead of 12. Fucked up earlier and forgot to calculated the accuracy on the 2nd hit.


On WS, I thought you could tell Zanshin proc because of weird tp return, no? Something like 2tp Steel cyclone.