Ruke's All-Purpose Thread of DA/Askar/Haste/etc and Win!

[RKenshin]

I've never personally seen nor have any other SAMs I know of reported getting more than 1-2 TP return from a WS, even though in theory a Zanshin proc with Ikishoten merited should give at least 4-5 TP. But it's impossible to know if that's evidence or not as no one really knows whether Ikishoten would work on a Zanshin swing in a WS. Seems like it doesn't.

Only way to really tell is to WS a bunch of times on SAM with an assload of Zanshin and absolutely no form of DA, and see if you get any low TP returns.

[ringthree]

Yes, this is why I agreed with the theory that Accuracy isn't a linear increase. What you just described would basically fit a plot curve, which is what I think accuracy follows. I never said that something like that wasn't likely? I think it's way more likely than not.

I wasn't trying to disagree with you in the slightest, because I believe that you are correct. I was trying to emphasize the fact that it could be caused by the inherent "auto-miss" percent in the accuracy calculations and not because the accuracy calculations change the closer you get to the accuracy cap. The distinction is not relevant for most cases, I was just adding for clarity sake only. I am not saying that it necessarily is or is not,

Though I do have a question about the linearity of an increase in accuracy. If you have 90% accuracy and you add +20 Accuracy, and afterwards you have 95% accuracy that does not necessarily prove that the accuracy equation is linear or not, correct? Would the best way to test the notion of whether there is a change in the amount of +Accuracy needed for a change in accuracy percentage be to stay under the cap?

I am having a hard time coming up with a model to demonstrate this, but I guess my question is best worded like this: Do you think that your observations about the need for more +Accuracy to reach a higher accuracy percentage included the inherent "auto-miss" part of the accuracy calculation? To illustrate: http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...p/Acc_perc.jpg The green line is the old notion of accuracy, and the blue line is your suggestion. If my incredibly limited understanding of calculus is correct, it would not be difficult to create an equation that had limits similar to the graph. This would also mean that our understanding of Accuracy as it relates to accuracy percentage is flawed, but it would also make sense that it was not linear. Additionally, to have a better understanding of accuracy percentage we would have to do all new tests at a wide range of Accuracy on similar mobs.

I believe that Nagamaki's accuracy tests were lost in the Great Forum Disintegration of 2007, but does anyone have the results tucked away somewhere?

[Starr]

The results were that after 75% hit rate, which happens when your accuracy is equal to a mobs evasion, when it is the same level as you, it takes 2 accuracy to increase hit rate by 1%. For an enemy higher level than you it is Evasion+((MobLv - YourLV) x 4)= Accuracy to hit 75% and then the same thereafter for 2 to 1%. So your graph should be linear after 75%, before 75% was never tested but if you are below 75% on anything you're doing something wrong anyway.

[Nameless]

Question for Gunslinger, what is the drop rate on aurum's cuirass? I see that you have one and might have killed Tyger more than a few times, what is the rate on it if you have to estimate?

Thank you.

[Amele]

The results were that after 75% hit rate, which happens when your accuracy is equal to a mobs evasion, when it is the same level as you, it takes 2 accuracy to increase hit rate by 1%. For an enemy higher level than you it is Evasion+((MobLv - YourLV) x 4)= Accuracy to hit 75% and then the same thereafter for 2 to 1%. So your graph should be linear after 75%, before 75% was never tested but if you are below 75% on anything you're doing something wrong anyway.

based on the behavior of gear below 75% (ate a 3 hour meat in a double bard party vs. imps in the late 60's then had both bards leave depriving me of the delicious madrigals the 1h's were insisting on) I didn't see anything to indicate that it -wasn't- a 2 for 1% below that point either.

it would be fairly easy to test if you were careful and manipulated your gear enough; heck, it might be possible to test straight up vs. lurkers in full equipment without a bard.


@RK: we need to get a sam/thf to weaponskill something they have ~50% acc on a whole bunch of times and see what happens I guess. (drg/sam could do this too; although single hit weaponskills will be better) unfortunately for this sort of negative test; we could do 100+ ws and still not really be sure.

[Miraun]

I guess my definition of 6-hit would be for "true 6-hit," or 6 normal hits without the added TP from penta.

The real problem is with how reliable it is- even though we should all be at a 95% acc cap in an ideal world, there's still times when I don't land 5/5 penta hits (somewhere there's a thread with how much harder it becomes statistically to land a multi-hit WS, even with capped acc).

Can't go wrong with sTP ^^

Yeah, I remember crunching some numbers and finding that there's only a 77ish% chance of landing all 5 hits of a penta thrust. Having DA and TA is useful, since if you miss one, it can be suplimented with another hit, at a fairly high proc rate!

Main problem I have with my DRG and keeping the 6-hit setup is just when I miss hits on Penta. Even if it doesn't happen often it's still an annoyance.

Silly SAM pretending to be a DRG. You were just jealous of my bragging about damage output on birds and you wanted to be like me!



Conceptually, if we really wanted to metagame, we DRGs could carry both chest pieces, and switch depending on the number of hits of Penta Thrust that land.

For Gunslinger, since you have a valk fork (lucky bastard, we're just starting wing 3), That should bring you up to 16.4% TP per hit (assuming /SAM and Rajas/Brutal), which would yield 82% TP during the 5 non-WS hits, thus allowing you to miss 2 hits of a penta and still get to 100%! Unless my store tp calcs are wrong. I imagine with Fork, you'd be fine not worrying about too much additional Store TP, unless you're /WAR, /THF, or /BLU

[sleekmotorwurkz]

Well since this is the newb section and i did search, i guess I can ask here
Since im at work and I searched "Store TP Formula" and got lots of non-results, can someone tell me the formula to figure out your X-hit build?
Example, weapon delay / tp? Store TP gear? Sam sub?
Mainly looking for perdu gaxe, algol, perdu scythe, and tred scythe
Im redoing my spellcast sets and trying to decide between Askar/Homam/Ares for gaxe war and gsword/scythe drk.

[Nameless]

For weapon tp/hit, you can go to wiki and find out what each weapon gives (search the weapon and it should tell you the tp/hit). There is a formula but I am too lazy to find.

With each store tp +1, you time your tp/hit from the weapon by 1.01. So for instance, algol's tp/hit is 13.2%/hit, if you have +26 store tp, you will get 13.2% x 1.26 = 16.632% = 16.6% (Make sure you floor to the first decimal). /sam gives you +15 store tp as a sub, and the rest should be from your equipments such as rajas and brutal etc.

So hit build will be how many hits to get from 0 to 100%, in this case, 16.6% x 6 = 99.6% so you need one more hit to get to 100%, which means you have a 7 hit build. Tho you have to make sure to factor in gear swap during ws. What I usually do is to always make ws my first hit, calculate my tp gain for ws seperately, then find out what's my tp/hit for my tp set and see how many hits I need to get to 100% after ws. Hope this helps.

[Callisto]

If you check BGWiki the info's under 'Player TP Gain' iirc.

[ringthree]

Well since this is the newb section and i did search, i guess I can ask here
Since im at work and I searched "Store TP Formula" and got lots of non-results, can someone tell me the formula to figure out your X-hit build?
Example, weapon delay / tp? Store TP gear? Sam sub?
Mainly looking for perdu gaxe, algol, perdu scythe, and tred scythe
Im redoing my spellcast sets and trying to decide between Askar/Homam/Ares for gaxe war and gsword/scythe drk.

0 - 180 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5] / 180
180 - 450 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5] / 270
450 - 480 11.5 + [(Delay - 450) * 1.5] / 30
480 - 530 13.0 + [(Delay - 480) * 1.5] / 50
530 - 999 14.5 + [(Delay - 530) * 3.5] / 470

Take TP per swing and multiply by Store TP like this: TP * 1.(sTP) = Adjusted TP.

I think that is what you want.

[Miraun]

Already sent that all to him in a PM

[Gunslinger]

Question for Gunslinger, what is the drop rate on aurum's cuirass? I see that you have one and might have killed Tyger more than a few times, what is the rate on it if you have to estimate?

Thank you.

Hrm, we've done it 5-6 times now and have seen 2 Cuirass drop. If I had to guess, I'd say it's around 33% or something. It seems to share a drop space with some other ZNM pieces (maybe Armet?), but I haven't really paid enough attention to drop patterns to see what it may be.

For Gunslinger, since you have a valk fork (lucky bastard, we're just starting wing 3), That should bring you up to 16.4% TP per hit (assuming /SAM and Rajas/Brutal), which would yield 82% TP during the 5 non-WS hits, thus allowing you to miss 2 hits of a penta and still get to 100%! Unless my store tp calcs are wrong. I imagine with Fork, you'd be fine not worrying about too much additional Store TP, unless you're /WAR, /THF, or /BLU

Lucky indeed ^^ LS was very generous to give me, it was on our 7th Odin I think? Took forever to see one :[

But you're right. The added store TP is really nice on other subs, but on /sam it's 17.4 tp per swing, meaning I'd only have to land the first hit of penta to maintain a 6-hit (could even do with a bit less, but I don't see a point to removing any of the other gear that has store-TP on it since I'm not sacrificing other stats for it).

The other reason I wear Aurum is a bit more simple- my other choice atm is assault jerkin :). I still don't have Homam (which I'd like some day for other applications), Askar (which is really a sidegrade/downgrade from Aurum in everything but looks imo), and Ares, which I'd do if I had some spare cash laying around. Maybe someday!

[Miraun]

The other reason I wear Aurum is a bit more simple- my other choice atm is assault jerkin . I still don't have Homam, Askar (which is really a sidegrade/downgrade from Aurum in everything but looks imo), and Ares, which I'd do if I had some spare cash laying around. Maybe someday!

Ahh, I guess that pretty much solves it. I just reviewed the stats on the Aurum versus askar, and yeah, while it does add extra ATT and ACC, it still doesn't have that nice 2% DA. While we've talked here about how 2% DA is less effective as it's marginal rate of change when values are high, it would be interesting to plug in your exact values and see how the askar would parse versus the aurum. I suspect they'd be closer than you'd think!

Homam should still outparse it, since you already have enough Store TP from the weapon. the 2.5% TA is amazing. While they're not always that often, TA procs on jumps are orgasmic... an instant ~600-800 damage and 48% TP.

[Callisto]

I'm hoping for some Aurum pieces on my DRG as well soon, but fucking hell that set doesn't look right on DRG. :/

[Gunslinger]

Yeah, TA is sexy haha. Hopefully before too long. I could provide more values for what I currently have if anyone feels like crunching numbers. With sam sub I sit at 10% DA still which is really nice- 5% brutal, 3% fork, 2% grip. With /war it's just plain sexy @ 20% DA, but I do miss the damage mitigation and insane TP build.

[HadesBothari]

So, I've been contemplating gear options on my DRG too. Question I have is which is better for TP (excluding food benefits):

This one : +18% Haste, +2.5% Triple Atk, +7% DA, +6 STR, +12 Dex, +37 Acc (+46 with dex), +24 Atk (Sit at 400 Atk)

vs

This one : +15% Haste, +7% DA, +18 STR, +37 Dex, +17 Acc (+44 with dex), +39 Atk (Would sit at 424 Atk with Str)

If I cap accuracy on both sets (parsed 96% over 170 mobs on colibri with set 1 ... >.> i know most likely acc lost on ws etc.). And If both of them almost always (4-5 hit penta) get me to a 6 hit build.

So basically, 2.5% Triple + 3% Haste (~8% less hit rate?) vs 24 Atk, + the benefits of +12 Str and +25 Dex. (will it effect critical and base damage enough to make up.. or how close/far would it be). Am hoping Ruke's spreadsheet will help.

Ps. I have Set1 Askar gear + Aurum boots, working on Aurum body. I use Set 1.

[Nameless]

That's interesting Gunslinger, I would guess that it is a 33% drop as well since the mob usually drop 2 items and there are 6 possible gears so I guess 33% is close enough.

As for askar, I would think that it would be better for drg than aurum's? Aurum body got - VIT on it so it probably itsn't very good for jump, or at least not as good as askar. And drg probably don't need acc as much as GS drk so the loss of acc from using askar shouldn't be that bad right?

[Khrno]

That's interesting Gunslinger, I would guess that it is a 33% drop as well since the mob usually drop 2 items and there are 6 possible gears so I guess 33% is close enough.

Not really, haven't you done any tier4? You can end up with just mats, with mats and 1 armor, or 2 items which might be same one.

That usually is not really usually. I'm not talking about Tyger since I've yet to fight it, but Tinnin and Sarameya are like that and we have already fight them 10 times, and only Sarameya dropped seal btw, out of those 10 times, only 3 double items, and 1 was a double drop Enkidu's Cap.

So it isn't as easy of drop you would wish.

Quick edit: all those fights with TH4.

[Callisto]

That's interesting Gunslinger, I would guess that it is a 33% drop as well since the mob usually drop 2 items and there are 6 possible gears so I guess 33% is close enough.

As for askar, I would think that it would be better for drg than aurum's? Aurum body got - VIT on it so it probably itsn't very good for jump, or at least not as good as askar. And drg probably don't need acc as much as GS drk so the loss of acc from using askar shouldn't be that bad right?

Depends, with a Valk Fork you can already hit a 6-hit without Askar, though if I'm correct without it you need Askar body. Most DRGs aren't really running around with Valk Fork, while Askar body is relatively easily obtained. Either way Aurum is still nice for WS.

[Gunslinger]

Yeah, the drop rate may be lower, we do have TH4 on each time ofc (why would you do this without it?). Our rate has been 33% though by my observation. Can always get unlucky though :3

I wouldn't worry about vit in calculating a good dragoon piece, the attack and str are going to make up for any losses you take with -vit. I'm guessing the difference between the two should be pretty close. You're essentially looking at:

Askar:
12 evasion, 8 agi, 8 vit, 2 double attack

Vs.

Aurum:
6 def, 3 str, 8 dex, 3 attack, 2 store tp

In terms of offensive stats, is 2 DA worth 3 str, 8 dex, 3 attack, 2 store tp? I don't know if it's a flawed comparison to take those other stats out when weighing it, but I know I don't really consider them very important for my tasks.