Botters succesfully sued.

[Naver]

Don't make me do this.

Should've used pink to match your avatar. But I'm glad you agree it's blurple after all.

[LinktheDeme]

Saddens me to think that the people in this thread's vote in the election counts the same as mine ; ;

[Day]

<~ I'm so unique I use colors!

[Ohaigaiz]

<~ I'm so unique I use colors!

It's not so much the color that annoy me, it's the incoherent rambling. I'm all for being witty, but it's as if the choice of words he uses is to... impress us in some way. Being intelligent and having a very wide vocabulary is great, good for you. In this sense, though, all it does for him is make him look like even more of the prick he comes off to be. I.E. using a stupid fucking color in your posts

[Stiker]

Holy crap this thread is STILL going... ; ;

[Xno Kappa]

Saddens me to think that the people in this thread's vote in the election counts the same as mine ; ;

You act surprised, Bush DID get re-elected you know.

[Titanss]

Spoken like a true Democrat.

Edit: But don't think I like Bush now.. I saw Petter Griffin entertain him acting like a damn monkey last night but then GW started crying like a little baby bitch when he broke something off his desk.

[Stiker]

Spoken like a true Democrat.

Edit: But don't think I like Bush now.. I saw Petter Griffin entertain him acting like a damn monkey last night but then GW started crying like a little baby bitch when he broke something off his desk.

I am glad you are picking your political preferences and basing your opinions on a show who's goal is to make fun of anyone and everyone.

[AoshiZ]

DLL hooking does not work exactly like that on a technical level, we're also mis-using the term. It's API hooking and DLL injection.

Also DLL altering is easily detectable.

The reason DLL injection is not illegal in the context of this case is because you are either replacing the original process, or adding a go-between, not copying or modifying the original client. The ruling of this case was a copyright violation, not an EULA violation.

In the case of glider it actually altered the client code, copying and running Warden in it's own separate universe so that it could control it's detection mechanisms.

You're going to have to point out the references like i have because you say glider is altering client code and nothing i've found says so. To be more concise the FAQ that i quoted from the glider site says it doesn't which is in your direct quote? I'm not trying to attack you at a personal level but you've said nothing but generalized things so far.

Also, if you want to try to to correct me with terminology you're heading in the wrong direction in that I am a software engineer and while correcting terminology with non-programmers may work, if you're going to prove your case with someone that does this for a living you're going to have to point out the specific API's they are using to make the distinction. As far as I've been programming in the commercial industry DLL hooking is the same as DLL injection. This is what you're friend aikar said he uses and if you actually go to the link it will explain what it does:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms644990.aspx

Your trying to act like any 3rd party modification to an application is bad, geez.

furthermore, my quote with the blizzard judgement summary is directly from the case, and they don't discuss anything in regards to the tactics used to circumvent the process. Glider is not open source. So tell where are you getting this information? As far as my experience goes, if i were to make a third party app, I would do it by attaching/hooking my DLL to a process.

Recap:
1. The Case states glider launch's WoW with its launcher obviously doing something to WoW.
2. Glider publicly states it does not alter WoW in Hard disk on in Memory.

They are DLL hooking. Windower DLL hooks. Edit addition: My point is that they are doing the same thing, and that this same thing would include Windower if it were used as a precedent.

Please Elaborate with information that i can reference somewhere else in terms of glider. And maybe you can have Aikar come back and clarify as well since all I've seen are attempts to use an authoritative figure to prove something which means nothing to me.

Edit Addition:
What I'm trying to state is that I think that the case is saying that by launching the application out of context of how it was originally designed with the third party app, the memory space that the application is residing in is now considered ownership of the third party app. I'm also adding a link to my reference since the quote alone doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere. http://virtuallyblind.com/2008/03/23...zzard-motions/

They also say that running the application is copying at all times into RAM even when normally playing the game. When playing normally it is an excepted form of copying under the terms of service and that in the instance of glider because they are using a third party app and violating the agreement when they run WoW it becomes an illegal copying instance.

Heres a larger direct quote:
"In this Circuit, the “copying” element may be proved in software cases by showing an unauthorized reproduction of a copyrighted software program in the computer user’s Random Access Memory (“RAM”). The Ninth Circuit has recognized that “the loading of software into the RAM creates a copy under the Copyright Act.” MAI Sys. v. Peak Computer, Inc., 991 F.2d 511, 519 (9th Cir. 1993), cert. dismissed 510 U.S. 1033 (1994); Triad Sys. Corp. v. Se. Express Co., 64 F.3d 1330, 1334 (9th Cir. 1995); see also Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp. v. Cablevision Sys. Corp., 478 F. Supp. 2d 607, 621 (S.D.N.Y. 2007) (agreeing with the “numerous courts [that] have held that the transmission of information through a computer’s random access memory or RAM . . . creates a ‘copy’ for purposes of the Copyright Act,” and citing cases.) When such a copy is made in excess of a license, the copier is liable for copyright infringement. Ticketmaster LLC v. RMG Techs., Inc., 507 F. Supp. 2d 1096, 1107 (C.D. Cal. 2007) (‘“When a licensee exceeds the scope of the license granted by the copyright holder, the licensee is liable for infringement.”’ (citation omitted)).

There is no dispute that to run Glider with WoW, users must load WoW from their hard drive into their computers’ RAM, at which point WoW is able to be both perceived and communicated, including interaction with Glider itself. (SOF ¶¶ 50-52). When a user first launches WoW, the executable of the program is loaded into RAM, and as they move through the game, additional copyrighted game content is loaded from the hard drive into RAM as the player reaches points in the game with which that content is associated. (SOF ¶ 51). In order to avoid easy detection and blocking of Glider by Blizzard’s anti-cheat technology, Glider users rely on Glider’s “launch pad” to initiate the start up and loading of WoW into RAM. Clearly, Glider users’ loading of WoW into RAM creates a copy for purposes of the Copyright Act.

The Glider users’ copying of WoW in circumstances exceeding their license is copyright infringement. LGS Architects, Inc. v. Concordia Homes of Nev., 434 F.3d at 1150, 1156 (9th Cir. 2006). For example, in Ticketmaster, the court held that using a bot program to access and download copies of copyrighted web pages into RAM in order to purchase large quantities of tickets ─ where the use of bots for this purpose was prohibited by the website’s terms of use ─ infringed Ticketmaster’s copyrights. Id. at 1102-03, 1109-10. Here, WoW players similarly have agreed not to use third-party applications to launch WoW, not to run bot programs in conjunction with WoW, not to exploit WoW for commercial use, nor to mine information from WoW gaming environment. Thus, when users copy WoW with Glider, they exceed the scope of their license, and infringe Blizzard’s copyrights."

[hotpiercedguy]

Am I the only person that doesn't use any 3rd party programs and doesn't bitch about it and is still a competent player?

[Melchiah]

Yes. You are the hardest shit ever to play FFXI because you don't use anything but what Holy SE gave you to use.

[AoshiZ]

Actually Since i don't know much about law i think i was mis interpreting the memory space thing.

I think what it really says is that You always copy the game and its understood that it is ok to copy the game as long as its under the terms of service. As soon as you violate the terms of service (such as using third party apps) its Copyright infringement. In which case, it doesn't really matter that i was trying to make a relation to how windower works and how glider works.

However I still believe glider is nothing but a DLL Hook/injected app.

Edit Addition:
This is important to me because I am a programmer and this could possibly affect my personal projects as well.

[fndragon]

I think what it really says is that You always copy the game and its understood that it is ok to copy the game as long as its under the terms of service. As soon as you violate the terms of service (such as using third party apps) its Copyright infringement.

^ this.

It's fine when under the terms of the contract. But once you break that contract (the TOS), you're liable for all sorts of shenanigans.

[Khamsin]

That's actually pretty good, because that finally gives us the long awaited precedent that makes TOSs enforcable.

Until now, the most they could do for violating the TOS was ban you, so this is a much needed step. All we need now is a precedent for successfully suing RMT.

[Cow_k]

I love the number of people so hurt by the idea that perhaps less people use windower plug in tools than do. Apparently if you don't use plug ins you're square's bitch as it's theoretically so impossible to enjoy the game without altering it to your own tastes. I just don't understand the insecurity.

[Melchiah]

I love the number of people so hurt by the idea that perhaps less people use windower plug in tools than do. Apparently if you don't use plug ins you're square's bitch as it's theoretically so impossible to enjoy the game without altering it to your own tastes. I just don't understand the insecurity.

The problem is the influx of you allafags with your 5 post counts coming to this endgame community and shitting all over people who do enjoy the conveniences of windower and it's associated plugins by calling them cheaters. Seriously, fuck you people. Alla is that way, go back there with your "lawl windower is cheating" faggotry right next to your discussions about Lv 50 clothcraft and finally getting sky and sea access after all these years. Shut the fuck up, please.

[Muramasa]

^

When you need to prove you're a cool guy on the interwebs.

[Day]

So you throw an e-insult in return? OK

[Muramasa]

Pretty sure you just refined e-insult :[ okok you win.

[Kyouri]

I'm in the camp that would quit if no more windower..~ Simply because windower lets me have other things that other online games already include. Honestly, I tried FFXI years ago but had never heard of the existence of windower and so I quit after my free month trial was up. I'd also have to say I might quit if it wasn't for FFAssist2 on screen map as well though. One of the main things I couldn't tolerate when I originally tried the game. For me, I get lost easily in games so on-screen map is typically a must for me.. But I guess that just makes me a bad player that probably wouldn't even last a year in game.

Anyway, I'd be all for FFXIApp being put out. I've never been a supporter of botting but I don't see little mods like windower doing harm. Hell, WoW actually even kinda supports slight mods like that if I remember correctly. Lol. SE won't do anything though. They aren't even doing the greatest regarding RMT and hacked accounts. (Yes, I'm bitter they gave me the run around and wouldn't do jack crap about my hacked account.~)