Botters succesfully sued.

[fndragon]

anyone who calls using windower a cheat is fucking retarded.
considering its well known that SE windower is bugged as shit, good windower is the best alternative for those of us who spend money on our computers and want to actually USE them

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...n/windower.png
Call me retarded then. The capability exists for cheating using windower. It is a third party software product that reads the memory of FFXI and analyzes it, and can insert commands back into it.

[Khamsin]

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...n/windower.png
Call me retarded then. The capability exists for cheating using windower. It is a third party software product that reads the memory of FFXI and analyzes it, and can insert commands back into it.

Plugins, maybe, but Windower is fairly harmless. It's like a gun, or vcr. Alone, they don't make crimes any easier, but with bullets or tapes, you could easily commit felonies and do some hard time in the pen.

...ok, I know that was silly, but think of it more like how the courts didn't ban VCRs simply because they could be used to violate copyright law.

[fndragon]

Plugins, maybe, but Windower is fairly harmless. It's like a gun, or vcr. Alone, they don't make crimes any easier, but with bullets or tapes, you could easily commit felonies and do some hard time in the pen.

...ok, I know that was silly, but think of it more like how the courts didn't ban VCRs simply because they could be used to violate copyright law.

It's not the gun that does the killing, it's the bullet?

It's not the fall, but it's the sudden stop at the end?

[Saithorx]

Call me retarded then. The capability exists for cheating using windower. It is a third party software product that reads the memory of FFXI and analyzes it, and can insert commands back into it.

The capability exists just for using a computer. Whether you use the computer to download windower and use it for cheating is up to each computer user. Just because someone uses windower doesn't meen they are using windower for cheating purposes.

[yrpaine]

wow, just read the direct news article. They got a real stupid judge (what's new) according to them loading something into ram is copying? would that make it impossible to run any pieces of licenced software without copying it? wouldn't that make installing the game or running it w/o the bot an infringement according to this precedent?

[fndragon]

The capability exists just for using a computer. Whether you use the computer to download windower and use it for cheating is up to each computer user. Just because someone uses windower doesn't meen they are using windower for cheating purposes.

The very definition of cheating is to have an unfair advantage. I understand that most people don't go "whole hog" cheating, and there is a distinct line to draw between using TParty and running a claiming bot. However the fact that I am pointing out is that the same tool (windower) can be used for both purposes directly.

As far as S-E cares, using Windower is a third party program that provides an advantage (read: cheating tool) to the people who use it for TParty, extended macros, Fillmode, etc. And as such a tool that provides an advantage, it should be considered as such, and not some patch for a "buggy" windowing mode.

[Septimus]

You all who use it just made yourself too dependant on Windower, probably almost all of you couldn´t play your job well anymore without. That´s your fault, not Squares . You were never supposed to use Windower. Maybe by now we would have something like a Windower or most of its functions, but with Windower pretty much noone is complaining.

Wait...

We coordinate Skillchains on Ventrilo or people say TP once in PT Chat when they have 100+ is so minimal of useless Chat in our Log that it doesn´t bother us. I understand it is terrible for many people to use more macros and some jobs would need for every small thing 3 macros. It was possible before Windower and it is still possible. Windower users are just used to the lazy way. All what I am saying does also not mean that I am for Windower to be gone. I´ll be glad if it stays forever and I´ll be glad too if it does not stay and will get rid of some idiots.
(Not like Windower will be gone anyway .)

You all who use it just made yourself too dependant on Ventrillo, probably almost all of you couldn´t play your job well anymore without. That´s your fault, not Squares . You were never supposed to use Ventrillo. Maybe by now we would have something like a Ventrillo or most of its functions, but with Ventrillo pretty much noone is complaining. Ventrillo users are just used to the lazy way. All what I am saying does also not mean that I am for Ventrillo to be gone. I´ll be glad if it stays forever and I´ll be glad too if it does not stay and will get rid of some idiots. (Turn about is fair play.)

Also, SE's windowed mode is a fucking blast of fecal matter sprayed all over a wall. Doesn't even fucking work correctly.

This needs to be repeated over and over again. I don't use TParty, I don't use windower macros, in fact the only things I use are DrawDistance (because the game is gorgeous when you can see forever) and occasionaly MrSeptimus. (Because everything is more fun when everyone is a Galka.) But the most important feature of Windower is that fact that it allows my computer to not be a $1000 paperweight between king camps or while waiting for people to gather together for events. This cannot be emphasized enough, the S-E Windowed mode is terrible, terrible, terrible. If I could not check my e-mail or look at the wiki or browse the forums whilst playing this game, I would quit in a heartbeat and never look back.

[Callisto]

and occasionaly MrSeptimus.

I never thought 'disturbing' would be a viable adjective for a Windower plugin.

[bercus]

I played this game for ages before windower came out/I knew about it.
It was terrible. It was a horrible, masochistic practice that proved we were all insane. I mean, really, imagine lfg in Valk for 5 hours, because there's 150 people there. No intarwebs to browse, no aim, nothing. Couldn't go away from the comp to do something else, because no tell dinger.

I know I'm not the only person who went through this hell. I contemplated quitting the game, but then I heard about windower...

And the skies parted, with a multitude of heavenly host lifting me on high to the salvation of windowed gaming.
Even without all the plugins, etc. windower is far superior to the official windower. Buggy as shit, laggy garbage.

Windower is *nothing* but a positive. Its plugins don't hurt anyone's gaming experience. Me using plugins doesn't encroach on your fun. If anything, it enhances it for everyone. Most of the things in windower should *be* in the game anyway.

Maybe the times have changed a bit, now that the entire NA community isn't the same level in the same camps, but I'm sure you all remember the horrors of pre-windowed NA-release FFXI.

I am not talking about being able to use the web. This did indeed suck but has nothing to do with the actual game. Plus we have a offical windowed mode now. But yes Windower is a positive "thing".

[orson]

TL;DR: You're either an idiot, and your friend is playing on a private server, or you're a liar.

At this point you can believe what you like but the version of Glider is more likely just different then the version my friend is using and he was using the one you pay the subscription for. As for not seeing weird shit in PVP that just sounds like you haven't done it much PVP.

Obviously I have so much to gain by lying about what I saw my friend doing and no it wasn't a private server. The AoE at ranged I haven't seen personally since my friends had been talking about that a while back getting hit by frost nova with the mage standing far away (maybe that was a teleport/movement hack) but I have seen his War unload abilities that for no apparent reason were doing double damage and his timers were reset with something to do with a trinket hack. To my knowledge he really has no reason to lie to me about using other hacks and he's said it's because of Glider.

So if you want to go ahead and call me or him a liar at this point I really don't give shit. I have more of a reason to believe my friend then some random internet troll.

[bercus]

Wait...



You all who use it just made yourself too dependant on Ventrillo, probably almost all of you couldn´t play your job well anymore without.

Who says we can´t play without Ventrilo? Actually only a handfull is online most of the time. You totally missed my point. If windower would be gone it is not the end of the world. Well to me. If people don´t have Vent or we don´t use it this happens :

or people say TP once in PT Chat

.
Comparing Windower to Ventrilo is pretty stupid if you ask me. Ventrilo has absolutely nothing to do with data comming from FFXI and going back or enhancing gameplay itself in I dont know many ways (TP Show, macros, recasts ect). But thanks for your comment^^.
Sure we can talk while playing. Wow. That is possible since day one. Plus you can technically have it running on a second PC/Laptop and you would not run it on your main playing machine (PC or console which you can´t anyway)
I know I can play fine without Ventrilo. But I know enough whining people who can´t play as good without Windower . If our Server is down we still play as good. If Windower is broken I know most people can´t play as good anymore.

PS: Again Windower is nothing I consider bad as long as you use stuff that is small like taking pictures, seeing peoples TP or making bigger macros.

PS2: Ventrilo or actually Teamspeak/Skype I have used before I played FFXI. I dont think anyone here used Windower before he/she played FFXI. And again comparing Communicationprogramms to windower is stupid.

[Kyreth]

I think what this gives MMORPG companies in general is a tool.

A malicious software removal tool.

S-E isn't going to yank Windower. Shit, there's likely an S-E rep reading all this right now. What they will do is use it on the folks who ARE problems- the claimbotters, the automated craftbotters, hell just plain botting programs and out-and-out cheating programs in general.

Getting sandy vagina over Windower (or trolling people about using/not using it) thanks to this decision is stupid.

On the other hand, it's a loaded gun pointed straight at FFXIAPP and company. And that's what we should be hoping to see. The botters getting their asses sued into ruin and MMORPG's in general getting cleaned up.

[Croaker]

SE might get lucky and win a case for copyright infrigement against the windower developers based on these previous rulings.

Then they move on to damages. There aren't any. For their time in court, SE gets awarded all of the profits that windower has raked in! None.



Now... here is the real kicker. When a 3rd party user is running windower and FFXI, is Windower using FFXI or is FFXI using windower???

Windower developers need to get their shit copyrighted and sue SE!

[bercus]

Yeah I think the same. SE will of course always say they don´t support Windower (well they have to with their policy) but I doubt they will ever do something serious to prevent the use. They are aware people, well most people "need" it for their way of playing FFXI.

[Day]

At this point you can believe what you like but the version of Glider is more likely just different then the version my friend is using and he was using the one you pay the subscription for. As for not seeing weird shit in PVP that just sounds like you haven't done it much PVP.

Obviously I have so much to gain by lying about what I saw my friend doing and no it wasn't a private server. The AoE at ranged I haven't seen personally since my friends had been talking about that a while back getting hit by frost nova with the mage standing far away (maybe that was a teleport/movement hack) but I have seen his War unload abilities that for no apparent reason were doing double damage and his timers were reset with something to do with a trinket hack. To my knowledge he really has no reason to lie to me about using other hacks and he's said it's because of Glider.

So if you want to go ahead and call me or him a liar at this point I really don't give shit. I have more of a reason to believe my friend then some random internet troll.

Completely off topic but mages get a water elemental with a ranged frost nova.

[Khamsin]

Now... here is the real kicker. When a 3rd party user is running windower and FFXI, is Windower using FFXI or is FFXI using windower???

I'm sure FFXI doesn't use Windower, and it's certainly not made with the intention of being used with Windower.

They probably look at the code, and the hooks and processes and such and have the court programmers determine what it's doing for purposes of copyright law.

[megido]

Plugins, maybe, but Windower is fairly harmless. It's like a gun, or vcr. Alone, they don't make crimes any easier, but with bullets or tapes, you could easily commit felonies and do some hard time in the pen.

...ok, I know that was silly, but think of it more like how the courts didn't ban VCRs simply because they could be used to violate copyright law.

NRA goes by the saying, a gun doesn't kill people, people kill people.

Sonomaa stop being a douchebag because you're naive to think Windower is not cheating. Making your text bigger doesn't help your point one bit.

Windower is a Third party program. It's an enabler for other programs to work with it in conjunction. Many of such plugins reveal information not intended by the game designer. Windower is a platform in which applications can be run to manipulate FFXI. The same arguement pointed with a gun not killing people, that people kill people, doesn't make the fact that ease in availability (of either guns or windower) allow for an environment that abuse is possible.

This is why gun companies get sued - because its availability is also an issue, and not just the person using the gun to commit a crime.

Do what it takes to make you sleep better at night but the difference between something like windower and blatant hacks like ffxiapp is slight.

[Khamsin]

Do what it takes to make you sleep better at night but the difference between something like windower and blatant hacks like ffxiapp is slight.

Just like going 1 mph over the speed limit and the holocaust?

[AoshiZ]

SE might get lucky and win a case for copyright infrigement against the windower developers based on these previous rulings.

Then they move on to damages. There aren't any. For their time in court, SE gets awarded all of the profits that windower has raked in! None.

Regardless of whether Windower has made profits, you could sue for damages. It is the burden of proof on SE. Windower doesn't do anything negative so its probably hard to have damages. However, things like FFXIAP and botting could have definitive numbers towards affecting the game economy and if that were somehow linkable to some sort of loss of revenue, then they could make a case.

Now... here is the real kicker. When a 3rd party user is running windower and FFXI, is Windower using FFXI or is FFXI using windower???

Windower developers need to get their shit copyrighted and sue SE!

The verbal semantics of this statement isn't that crazy at all. The kicker statement in the matrix with the Neo knocking over the vase is a good one.
One product is stand alone (FFXI) the other does nothing without hooking onto FFXI (Windower) so its obvious.

As for Copyriting, this is something that was special to this case because the lawsuit was based on the fact that the application runs Wow in another applications memory space. Which can be considered copying the application.
What windower developers could do, however, is patent any of their breakthrough algorithms and when someone happens to infringe upon that they could sue them. Obviously not SE, since SE isn't using windower's code. Unless someone could find out if some of the SE's Windowed mode incorporates algorithms from Windower.

[Khamsin]

Also, back when VCRs were introduced, some people complained about them being enablers for copyright infringement since they could record, but the courts ruled that they were legal anyway, stating that just because it can record copyrighted material doesn't mean they will be used to do that.