Botters succesfully sued.

[AoshiZ]

Windower is a Third party program. It's an enabler for other programs to work with it in conjunction. Many of such plugins reveal information not intended by the game designer. Windower is a platform in which applications can be run to manipulate FFXI. The same arguement pointed with a gun not killing people, that people kill people, doesn't make the fact that ease in availability (of either guns or windower) allow for an environment that abuse is possible.

This is complicated though, because the plugin programmers can be targeted directly. The Windower platform is fairly general with a few specific features, but the plugins can completely change what it does. Where in the case of guns, they have a more specifc role.

Your statement can almost be the same as saying the Windows Operating system should be liable for any applications programmed for it.

[Kenji]

Cheating (pulled off dictionary.com)
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.

Do yourselves a favor, guys. Stop trying to argue that it's not cheating. It is. Plain and simple. I know it makes it easier in your mind to justify it as such, but you're only hurting yourself.

You should be arguing: "It makes the game so much better." You actually have a case there. I don't fully agree, but I can at least see the logic of the position.

Don't compare Vent and Windower. Vent operates as a completely seperate program. It has no hooks into FFXI. It doesn't read from the game, nor does it do anything to directly affect the game. In short, the two aren't comparable.

We also don't know know how many people would actually quit if Windower went away. We can speculate all we want, but no one knows. All we know, is a bunch of people who say they would quit. I do know, that in all the time I've been playing MMO's, I've said millions of "OMG, if company X does this or doesn't do that, I'm gonna quit!" Did they quit? A small number perhaps. But it didn't have any affect on the game. Most kept on playing.

In short, I'll believe it when I see it.

Lastly, I use SE's Windower. I don't see any problem with it. It does what I need it to do; allow me to look up info or look at other websites while leaving the game open. And no, looking up websites is not cheating, because it doesn't violate the TOS and it doesn't hook into the game at all.

I originally used the Windower many years ago. Then I played WoW, saw my gameplay get so automated from so many add-ons. Watched myself and others get borked every patch, when most addons broke. I eventually went bar minimum, so I could still play, while everyelse whined and cried when their favorite gui addon, or process plugin broke, and wasn't fixed. You get too dependant upon your security blanket, that you cease to be able to function without it.

Logic burns.

[Sykes]

Since when did people start caring about the semantic argument about whether or not using Windower is actually cheating? I mean real people ... not the people that bitch just because they want to chastise others because it breaks the ToS.

So it's cheating ... who cares? Posting the definition of cheating isn't going to change the fact that I find Windower incredibly useful and am morally comfortable with continuing to use it.

[Kenji]

Two reasons:
#1. A few people got butt hurt over the insinuation the Windower is cheating.
#2. Blizzard sued cheaters in it's game, setting a legal precedent. The natural thought progression is to theorize that SE could do the same for Windower.

The latter point is what troubles the cheaters. Because they can't live without their precious program.

But it's good that you can at least make the argument that it's useful. It does you credit.

[megido]

This is complicated though, because the plugin programmers can be targeted directly. The Windower platform is fairly general with a few specific features, but the plugins can completely change what it does. Where in the case of guns, they have a more specifc role.

Your statement can almost be the same as saying the Windows Operating system should be liable for any applications programmed for it.

Yes that's correct Aoishi.

I have two points to this:

- In the actual case, it's difficult to prove the main reason for grief about the program (the cheating aspect of it) in court. So they challenge the app developer of copyright infringement and other legal technicalities. Whether the copyright argument and the violation TOS is a valid way to stop someone from creating the program will be decided in court. The effect of the decision if it serves as a precedent for other cases is huge because simply copying game data in RAM constitutes as copyright infringement. Whether this decision stays, well time will tell. we as a consumer are more prone now to litigation if this becomes a precedent. I think the decision is too far reaching... but only the courts can decide this.

- Second is making the distinction between one third party app over another. It doesn't matter if your intent is to organize your luggage or use it to claim Nidhogg. There is a potential for cheating with windower. Period. Whether you do or you don't, defending one feature feature without accepting all of its capabilities (its potential for abuse) is naive.

To Square, their concern is more mitigating the enabler of the abuse (windower) than to discern between its use (whether it be ethical or cheating) from user to user.

So the bottom line is, it's still a Third party application, a platform for where apps can be made to abuse the game. To make a distinction of one feature to another is stupid, because that's not how SE sees it. Windower is the platform, and will target them if it is in their best interest to do so. They ultimately have the final say no matter what your opinion is about cheating and playing fair.

[Sykes]

#2. Blizzard sued cheaters in it's game, setting a legal precedent. The natural thought progression is to theorize that SE could do the same for Windower.

But all the speculation is pointless because if SE wanted to get rid of Windower, they could just threaten legal action, and the Windower developers (at least if I were them) would fold because there is no financial incentive for them to become embroiled in a protracted legal battle just to have the right to continue distributing a tool that they develop as a hobby. The ruling today is pretty much irrelevant in that context except that if a long and pointless legal battle was to ensue, SE would have precedent on their side. (The danger that this precedent poses in general is a topic for a completely different discussion.)

But fortunately for all of us that use Windower, there is no reason that SE would want to go after Windower despite the fact that they could have effectively shut the current Windower developers down all this time (at which point development would probably just have gone underground anyway).

[Eron]

While I'm no great fan of the idea of windower only because of it's plugin capabilities, I couldn't care less if SE ignores it should they decide to follow up this ruling with some action of their own. Ppl are kinda shitty for using plugins but it's the only way to run the game windowed without the bugginess and I understand the necessity of it.

FFXIApp, on the other hand, needs a legal sodomizing. I'd have a good time lol'ing at reading about SE ruining everyone's life that has anything to do with that thing as well as it's less successful sibling apps. That's right, make it so their children will never go to college. Make it so that they need to live under a bridge, drinking rainwater and eating whatever they find on top of the dumpster. Make them bleed.

I'll gladly take the kind-of-shittyness of windower plugin users over the complete-and-utter shittyness of FFXIApp users.

[Day]

Could you not care less because you are so relentless?

[AoshiZ]

Yes that's correct Aoishi.

I have two points to this:

- In the actual case, it's difficult to prove the main reason for grief about the program (the cheating aspect of it) in court. So they challenge the app developer of copyright infringement and other legal technicalities. Whether the copyright argument and the violation TOS is a valid way to stop someone from creating the program will be decided in court. The effect of the decision if it serves as a precedent for other cases is huge because simply copying game data in RAM constitutes as copyright infringement. Whether this decision stays, well time will tell. we as a consumer are more prone now to litigation if this becomes a precedent. I think the decision is too far reaching... but only the courts can decide this.

- Second is making the distinction between one third party app over another. It doesn't matter if your intent is to organize your luggage or use it to claim Nidhogg. There is a potential for cheating with windower. Period. Whether you do or you don't, defending one feature feature without accepting all of its capabilities (its potential for abuse) is naive.

To Square, their concern is more mitigating the enabler of the abuse (windower) than to discern between its use (whether it be ethical or cheating) from user to user.

So the bottom line is, it's still a Third party application, a platform for where apps can be made to abuse the game. To make a distinction of one feature to another is stupid, because that's not how SE sees it. Windower is the platform, and will target them if it is in their best interest to do so. They ultimately have the final say no matter what your opinion is about cheating and playing fair.

I completely agree with you (refer to my previous posts). I was just commenting on the comparison to guns and people.

[Melchiah]

Sonomaa stop being a douchebag because you're naive to think Windower is not cheating. Making your text bigger doesn't help your point one bit.

I've done some stupid shit in my time, but I think I have yet to walk into another man's house and proceed to insult him and tell him what to do in his own house. In the same sentence, no less.

[Sonomaa]

I've done some stupid shit in my time, but I think I have yet to walk into another man's house and proceed to insult him and tell him what to do in his own house. In the same sentence, no less.

Im expecting it, its not a problem. Let me tell you a story though, some of you might know, some of you might not.

Long time ago there was this game called EverQuest, the empire known as Sony decided that they would NOT allow everquest to play in a windowed mode. Why? Because they had coded the game SUPER sloppy, you could hexedit your HP back to full, hexedit all of your gear into epic awesome, you could do anything you wanted to do by changing a few numbers. EQs copy protection was simply that you couldnt play in a window.

This wasnt a terrible thing at first, nobody had the PCs to actually play EQ at its full settings. Along came a program called EQWindows. Obviously this was windower for EQ, it came along because PCs did progress, the pentium 3 high end line and the P4 line was starting, as well as our good Althon CPUs coming into their awesome super heated room burning delight. Suddenly you could do more, yet still locked away from windowed mode. EQ windows was bannable, if you TALKED about it they banned you. But still about 70% of the playerbase used it because it was bullshit they couldnt own their computer.

Finally sony relented and made a windowed mode, they used the base of EQ windows given to them for free and made a high quality windowed mode that did the job well. However, Sony was helping our good buddys at SE made their MMO, and thus here is FFXI, half the shit that shouldnt be easily available in memory is, thus the game is stupidly hackable in that respect. Its MUCH better now, and they finally released a windowed mode after years, but they couldnt make one before simply because sony said they werent allowed to give an advantage over the ps2 players.


tl;dr. SE needs to make a good windowed mode, they need to lock down their code so it actually protects players against malicious 3rd party programs. Go after FFXI-APP, but I guarantee you, GUARANTEE you, if they take down windower, they will lose half the player base. Unless they make their own windowed mode something other than a waste of processing power, Ill stick with the "cheating" one.

[Izzy]

I can't believe we're actually having this discussion on BG forums. This shit is seriously rating a 9.7 on my retarded alakazham-o-meter.

[Skjie]

but I guarantee you, GUARANTEE you, if they take down windower, they will lose half the player base.

They really, honestly won't. I don't expect to convince people who believe that people running Windower comprise a vast percent of the playerbase, but it really isn't the truth. On their own website they list only 56000 people having downloaded the new version. Including people who have multiple computers, I would put that number even lower. Less than 10% of FFXI players have Windower installed. The fact that a large number of them are on BG is not relevant. Will endgame be decimated? Probably for a while. But, the vast majority of players would likely never notice, and even of the people who do have windower, I can't imagine more than half of them actually quitting over windower. SE would lose players, certainly, and BG would become a ghost town, but this would not in any way be the holocaust people are making it out to be.

Don't get me wrong, the game would be worse off for banning Windower, but with suits like this one, it is possible, and more likely every day.

[Demosthenes11]

you all can pry tparty, drawdistance, distance, yarnball, recast, extended macros, windower, etc out of my cold dead hands. The day they make it to where you can't use is the day I quit.

The semantic argument here is fucking stupid as well. If you tell a linguist they are wrong by pointing to a dictionary they will fucking laugh in your face for your stupidity. If using what I do is cheating then call me the devil

[Melchiah]

Do a break down of PC users versus lolshitbox2 users and your numbers will change a lot. Also, 90% of statistics, carry on.

There will be a mass exodus of endgame players should windower get banned. Tell yourself otherwise all you want, the endgame community as a whole is not going to endure playing this game with all the downtime associated with it and not be able to browse the web or whatever else.

Also, if you use FFXIApp, suck my cock.

[Izzy]

the endgame community as a whole is not going to endure playing this game with all the downtime associated with it and not be able to browse the web or whatever else.

Exactly!

Here, sit in Aery for 3+ hours and do NOTHING but stare at the waterfalls!

[Skjie]

I don't use windower and I'm browsing right now :/

[Robert]

if you took that screenshot in your sig you're a cheater

[Skjie]

Interestingly, I didn't take that screenshot, it was sent to me. However, by the wording of the suit, fraps (as it doesn't hook into pol) doesn't count as a cheating program, which is what I do use when I remember to load it up. Also, I don't consider people who use windower cheaters, so fuck off.

[Robert]

I was being highly satirical, but GMs (lolgms) have said on several occasions that Fraps is against the TOS, I wasn't talking about the semantics of the lawsuit, but rather the dumbassery of people arguing that windower is a cheat.