Botters succesfully sued.

[Day]

Shut the fuck up already.

[Lexa]

Is there any way to implement some sort of an Alla banstick rule, so we can get these "ZOMG WINDOWER IZ HAX0RS!" fucks off our forums and go back to bitching at SE for AV?

[Therin]

Rephrase: Does the windower make a shitty user interface workable and not induce bouts of uncontrolled rage? Yes.

Oh for God's sake, yes it IS outdated but if the UI bothers you that much then go play another damn game.

You're telling me you've never thrown on an old game for the SNES or Playstation because you loved it, despite the archaic and flawed interface and playability compared to modern games? Hell, I'm playing SaGa Frontier right now. It's old and has lots of bugs and problems (did you know that if you have a full party of 15 players and try to recruit a 16th then said player simply ceases to exist?!), but it's fantastically fun.

The FFXI interface is fine. It might not be as good as the updated WoW or Eve, or other online games (I've never played any of these), but that's not a big deal at all. This game is piss easy to play, there's not a damn hard thing about it.

Distance Plugin? Yeah, sure it makes it easier, but I'm a PLD and I kite shit all the time - let me tell you if you need a digital meterstick to tell you how far away from Meteor you are you need to go play another job.

TParty? Useful, as I stated before, makes for quick organization and removes unnecessary macros (for TP). This is my favorite Windower plug-in because I can just say, "Hey Ranger, open for Light" and it happens without having to ask what said Ranger's TP is. But guess what? For like two years straight in TG we used to use alliance macros when coordinating skillchains and still got 12-16 minute Faf/hoggs back before merit additions and ToAU gear upgrades and the two-handed boost. Was it hard? NO. Just takes a tad bit longer.

Yarnball? Are you seriously that lazy that you can't check recast on spells or read a fucking chatlog? They DO have chat filters, you know.

Recast plug-ins are a joke for most jobs, I can see it being somewhat useful for a mage but no tank or DD should EVER need them. If you don't have a feel for when your Provoke, Flash, or Utsu timers are up you probably suck anyway (besides, you can just use the echo command if you're really desperate).

The only feasible complaint that people even have is the macro thing, and while it's annoying to have to use multiple macros it hardly makes for more than just a few milliseconds of delay when switching between palettes. I have books for each job and palettes for each individual subjob combination. My Fire Resist set takes 6 macros (3 on and 3 off). My STR/WS set takes 5 macros (2 STR on, 1 WS, 2 STR off). Do my macros EVER lag or cause any problem whatsoever with my ability to perform? Absolutely not.

Now, I'm not going to pull the "OMG WINDOWER IS CHEATING" card because that's just bullshit. SE can do with it as they will, and it won't have any effect on me (I would love for them to crack down on FFXIApp, though).

But for those of you who are saying that this game is too hard to play or too uncomfortable without Windower assistance well, you should probably go spend your time doing something else, because there are plenty of us who do just fine without any of that stuff and never complain about it.

There was a time when a RDM's ability to keep Refresh on 5-6 people, 4-6 people Hasted, all the while controlling -na spells and debuffing the mob was a mark of a really dedicated player. Now the game has been simplified to the point where almost all RDMs are expected to do that, and are singled out if they can't. Now, I'd be an ignorant fool to complain about this - it DOES seem that the collective playing skill has risen since the 2004/2005 era, and that's a GREAT thing. But, will we ever know what to attribute it to? Are people really getting more comfortable with their jobs and better at the game, or is it just because of the Windower's constantly increasing functionality devolving the game to be more simplistic?

P.S. Izzy is actually really skinny.

[Darus Grey]

I read the case(and unlike most e-lawyers, I've passed the bar in NY, though I don't practice).
From my understanding of it, the only part of glider that violated anything is when glider would duplicate part of the client code within itself(in RAM). At this point that code became part of glider, and they thus violated copyright. The unique thing about this is the fact that the code itself is not included with glider, but is assimilated by the user with a valid license for the client. I actually disagree with this ruling, it should be the consumer who is responsible as it's not the people who made gliders' responsibility to determine if the end-user has a valid right to copy the client.
This ruling has more effect on DVD copy software than it does on bots. The way glider worked is fairly unique to WOW. Since running WOW gives Blizzard permission to scan all open windows, processes, and your RAM, you have to be able to hide bots in ram at the kernal(think rootkit) level of windows to remain undetected by Warden.

FFXI windower does not do anything similar to this AFAIK and this ruling does not pertain to it.

[Shuemue]

Is there any way to implement some sort of an Alla banstick rule, so we can get these "ZOMG WINDOWER IZ HAX0RS!" fucks off our forums and go back to bitching at SE for AV?

Just ban anyone with under 1000 posts.

[Kyreth]

Do a break down of PC users versus lolshitbox2 users and your numbers will change a lot. Also, 90% of statistics, carry on.

There will be a mass exodus of endgame players should windower get banned. Tell yourself otherwise all you want, the endgame community as a whole is not going to endure playing this game with all the downtime associated with it and not be able to browse the web or whatever else.

Also, if you use FFXIApp, suck my cock.

So in other words- kill Windower, BG burns like Rome circa Nero?

That would be tragically epic if "endgame" = ZAM forum discussion.

(As I've said, I don't see Windower going bye-bye.)

I have an idea, however. Go to S-E, openly with a Windower build that essentially duplicates what they're trying (and more poorly) to do. Source and all. Explain the whole thing to them in "Programming for dummies" terms. See if they'll make it official, get some kind of contact in the company that would allow Windower (the 3PP) to effectively become a part of the game without the "if we act like it's not there, nobody gets TOS-whacked for it".

If it works with Steam and Blizzard, it can work here.

And FFXIapp users aren't worthy of touching people for the purposes of sex of any kind, thankyouverymuch. Cheat one way, cheat always.

[Lexa]

Just ban anyone with under 1000 posts.

K, just let me rack up 80 more posts quick!

[Max™]

What Therin said, though I would like draw Distance for the big epic shiny zoom-out SS's in WoTG zones now.

I'm amazed that people talk about macro space wasting with 20 Books with 20 pages per book.

I don't even have my entire war macro book taken up with /Sam, /Drg(also /Mnk they're simple/rarely used sets so cut+paste works), /Thf, /Dnc, Ballista, 40 Cap, one that I have used a few times for sub leveling, and an old Bst macro page I've used for /Bst since, and a WS set for the four mainly used Subs with residual gear swaps, situational/day/night/hp swaps, various WSes, WS oriented buffs, and return to TP set buttons.

Using all these, my macro changes and equip swaps are smoother and more fluid than they ever were using multiple buttons on one set, and I've got spare room for stupid shit like my I... TANK... YOUR... MONSTER, I TANK IT UP macros in a few sets.

Hell, I don't even need 5 macros like Therin listed.

First WS has 5 swaps > Set change, same button on the new set has 4-5 swaps and WS.

Ammo if Virtue or /Dnc (Bibiki), Head, Neck, Ear2, Body at times, Hands, Ring1, Back at times, Waist, Leg at times, Feet, only time I'd need more than 9 swaps is changing virtue stones, legs for Steel, Body for Steel, and Back if I didn't want to just use Forager's, I'm hardpressed to believe that such a comprehensive swap is needed for every action by every other job to where I'm so hindered by lacking windower macros.

Ultimately windower macros amount to one less button press for me, L2 > X > X turns into L2 > X for the same effect.

[AoshiZ]

I read the case(and unlike most e-lawyers, I've passed the bar in NY, though I don't practice).
From my understanding of it, the only part of glider that violated anything is when glider would duplicate part of the client code within itself(in RAM). At this point that code became part of glider, and they thus violated copyright. The unique thing about this is the fact that the code itself is not included with glider, but is assimilated by the user with a valid license for the client. I actually disagree with this ruling, it should be the consumer who is responsible as it's not the people who made gliders' responsibility to determine if the end-user has a valid right to copy the client.
This ruling has more effect on DVD copy software than it does on bots. The way glider worked is fairly unique to WOW. Since running WOW gives Blizzard permission to scan all open windows, processes, and your RAM, you have to be able to hide bots in ram at the kernal(think rootkit) level of windows to remain undetected by Warden.

FFXI windower does not do anything similar to this AFAIK and this ruling does not pertain to it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, it Sounds like you're familiar with the Law but not so familar with the technical details. Glider runs the applications in its own memory space and controls it. This is the same as windower which is a DLL hook that launches FFXI and hooks onto the FFXI application in its own memory space.

You feel that the consumer should be responsible and not the people that made glider? Even though glider does nothing by itself and it's sole purpose is to control WOW and run it in its memory space which Violate WoW's copyrights? So in essence you're saying that if I made software that could only hack into Darus Grey's email/finances/(anything else specific to you) and sold it for a profit, that the users are the ones that are responsible and not the programmer? I don't think i need a law degree to know that I would probably get in trouble for making something like that.

FYI... Running applications at the kernal level is not something that is hard to detect. I don't know how Warden is programmed and I'm pretty sure you don't either in that its a polymorphic application that attempts to hide what it is actually doing, but i would assume that it can find anything on a PC as long as it knew what to look for.

[Tomk]

I read the case(and unlike most e-lawyers, I've passed the bar in NY, though I don't practice).
From my understanding of it, the only part of glider that violated anything is when glider would duplicate part of the client code within itself(in RAM). At this point that code became part of glider, and they thus violated copyright. The unique thing about this is the fact that the code itself is not included with glider, but is assimilated by the user with a valid license for the client. I actually disagree with this ruling, it should be the consumer who is responsible as it's not the people who made gliders' responsibility to determine if the end-user has a valid right to copy the client.
This ruling has more effect on DVD copy software than it does on bots. The way glider worked is fairly unique to WOW. Since running WOW gives Blizzard permission to scan all open windows, processes, and your RAM, you have to be able to hide bots in ram at the kernal(think rootkit) level of windows to remain undetected by Warden.

FFXI windower does not do anything similar to this AFAIK and this ruling does not pertain to it.

This is what bothers me about the ruling.

I understand that this is copyright law and not patent law, but someone can buy a car and install a bunch of things to make it better. I can start a company whose sole purpose is to make aftermarket turbo upgrades for a specific car. This company can have no affiliation with the car manufacturer, make tons of money, and be perfectly legal.

I also understand that I cannot rewrite a couple chapters of "Gone with the Wind" to make them better and sell them.

The difference is there between the copyright laws and patent laws in these examples, I just don't understand it. How does the value of original work not apply to cars? How are major car manufacturers not hurt by crappy aftermarket parts?

The only thing that I do understand is that Blizzard was being hurt by this program. The only thing that they really had to go on for this case is a weak argument about copying into RAM and they had much better lawyers. Now we have a sucky ruling.

Just ban anyone with under 1000 posts.

Oops, sorry for waisting your time.

[Aquilla]

Amentis, you're a very angry person. You need hugs and cookies.

And as a PS2 user, I'd like to say, I want windower stuffs ._.; I ran outta macro space a while ago, on blm and mnk XD More lines would be wonderful, not that macro books are bad (i like them, in fact).

Like, even assuming I have inventory space for 8 elemental grips, I wont have macro space for them.

[AoshiZ]

This is what bothers me about the ruling.

I understand that this is copyright law and not patent law, but someone can buy a car and install a bunch of things to make it better. I can start a company whose sole purpose is to make aftermarket turbo upgrades for a specific car. This company can have no affiliation with the car manufacturer, make tons of money, and be perfectly legal.

I also understand that I cannot rewrite a couple chapters of "Gone with the Wind" to make them better and sell them.

The difference is there between the copyright laws and patent laws in these examples, I just don't understand it. How does the value of original work not apply to cars? How are major car manufacturers not hurt by crappy aftermarket parts?

The only thing that I do understand is that Blizzard was being hurt by this program. The only thing that they really had to go on for this case is a weak argument about copying into RAM and they had much better lawyers. Now we have a sucky ruling.




Oops, sorry for waisting your time.

Well thats why the article says that this lawsuit is something of a twist. Because it approached the issue using the Copyright laws which is radical.

I think the problem you are having is that you're trying to relate aftermarket car parts to software. Generaly, any MMO game software is not actually the property of the consumer. The licenses generally state that you are buying the right to use the software and that you are not allowed to modify the software and use it.

I'll try to make an analogy (don't beat me up if its bad)... it would be like Renting an Apartment. You pay for the right to dwell in the apartment but are not allowed to make modifications to the physical structure. Making changes inside the dwelling like furniture and decorations are within the terms of the agreement; similar to playing the game and upgrading your character.

[Max™]

WAISTING

lol

So yeah, the reason car manufacturers don't care is because they are only trying to keep from eating the loss of having the car sit around.

This is why they DO care when you're leasing if you go and install spinnaz and a whistle tip (though, everyone should care if you're that retarded, but I digress) because it is their car still, and you're hurting the money they could potentially eke out of it with your "improvements" since there isn't much market for a car with an aftermarket turbo installed by some kid, unless you're ignorant, or the value of the parts/work done on the car is more than the value of the car.

The comparison of aftermarket car parts is more like gamegenie, has there been any major game manufacturer who has said boo about gamegenie "altering their game"?

Not that I know of, because once you buy the game, they could care less, they got their cash, moving on is a better way to make more.

[Darus Grey]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, it Sounds like you're familiar with the Law but not so familar with the technical details. Glider runs the applications in its own memory space and controls it. This is the same as windower which is a DLL hook that launches FFXI and hooks onto the FFXI application in its own memory space.

You feel that the consumer should be responsible and not the people that made glider? Even though glider does nothing by itself and it's sole purpose is to control WOW and run it in its memory space which Violate WoW's copyrights? So in essence you're saying that if I made software that could only hack into Darus Grey's email/finances/(anything else specific to you) and sold it for a profit, that the users are the ones that are responsible and not the programmer? I don't think i need a law degree to know that I would probably get in trouble for making something like that.

FYI... Running applications at the kernal level is not something that is hard to detect. I don't know how Warden is programmed and I'm pretty sure you don't either in that its a polymorphic application that attempts to hide what it is actually doing, but i would assume that it can find anything on a PC as long as it knew what to look for.

First let me pre-face this with saying I don't consider myself an expert at the technical details of this subject. In-fact almost all my knowledge on the subject comes from a tiny bit of personal experience and reading this textbook http://www.amazon.com/Exploiting-Onl...6228903&sr=8-1
Which actually has an entire sub-chapter devoted to Warden and Glider.

Whenever Aikar un-afks I'm gonna ask him for some more technical details, but my understanding is that the DLL process windower uses subverts a windows function and not an FFXI one.

Edit: Just cause

I also understand that I cannot rewrite a couple chapters of "Gone with the Wind" to make them better and sell them.

Don't worry, you can in 2031. Or now if you're Australian!

[Khamsin]

There's nothing sucky about the ruling if it can be used as precedent for all sorts of future cases, now that the cat's out of the bag.

So far, companies that make multiplayer games have not been able to effectively enforce their game to keep things running as intended. In this case, it's not about each of us having our own hotrod, it's about a (short) bus that needs to be kept intact for all our mutual use. Next time I hop on the metro, I'll be sure to bring my aftermarket spoilers for 60 foot articulated buses and see what they say.

At least now, companies can start actually enforcing their rules a little better than they could before. And that's a Good Thing™.

[Tomk]

Well thats why the article says that this lawsuit is something of a twist. Because it approached the issue using the Copyright laws which is radical.

I think the problem you are having is that you're trying to relate aftermarket car parts to software. Generaly, any MMO game software is not actually the property of the consumer. The licenses generally state that you are buying the right to use the software and that you are not allowed to modify the software and use it.

I'll try to make an analogy (don't beat me up if its bad)... it would be like Renting an Apartment. You pay for the right to dwell in the apartment but are not allowed to make modifications to the physical structure. Making changes inside the dwelling like furniture and decorations are within the terms of the agreement; similar to playing the game and upgrading your character.

Oh, thats it. I didn't think about renting.

WAISTING

Dammit! I missed that!

[Darus Grey]

Spoke to Aikar. My initial position was correct in that Windower subverts a windows process and not an FFXI one.

Windower does not directly modify the game client and thus this ruling is not applicable to it.

[Aikar]

oohh yeah senaoo yea macaron sesao macaron
macaron oohhh
shark around,shark around,shark around, shark around

IHNI BINNI DIMI DINI MIN Y ANITAIME
IHNI BINNI DIMI DINI VAN MOR TAIME
OR IHNI BINNI DINI MINI ANY TAIME
O IHNI BINNI DINI ONE MOR TAIME

SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHAKARONI SHAKARON INI NUI RON
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND

IHNI BINNI DIMI DINI MIN Y ANITAIME
IHNI BINNI DIMI DINI VAN MOR TAIME
OR IHNI BINNI DINI MINI ANY TAIME
O IHNI BINNI DINI ONE MOR TAIME

SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHARKARONI SHAKARON INI NUI RON
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND

HIP! SHAKARON
HIP! INI NUI RON

ENNY THAINN YOU PLAY
ENNY THAINN YOU FLOW
ABITITTA INI INA
SHARK AROUND
ENNY THAINN YOU FOLW
INTO THIS GROVE...
UNDA THE GUIDE OF WINNY POO
MACARRON THE COVE
GIN MI FLOKE
ABITITTA ZA INNI
SHARK AROUND
IN DI GANE DINI
GIN MI FLOW
GAMA GIMI INI INI BLOW

SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHAKARONI SHAKARON INI NUI RON
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND

IHNI BINNI DIMI DINI MIN Y ANITAIME
IHNI BINNI DIMI DINI VAN MOR TAIME
OR IHNI BINNI DINI MINI ANY TAIME
O IHNI BINNI DINI ONE MOR TAIME

SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHARKARONI SHAKARON INI NUI RON
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND

O MY GGOOOOOOOD
HIP! YEAH INI NUI RON
IHNI BINNI DIMI DINI MIN Y ANITAIME
IHNI BINNI DIMI DINI VAN MOR TAIME
OR IHNI BINNI DINI MINI ANY TAIME
O IHNI BINNI DINI ONE MOR TAIME

SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND
SHARKARONI SHAKARON INI NUI RON
SHARKA AROUND,SHARKA AROUND
INI NUI ROUND

ENNY THAINN YOU PLAY
ENNY THAINN YOU FLOW
ABITITTA INI INA
SHARK AROUND
ENNY THAINN YOU FOLW
INTO THIS GROVE...
UNDA THE GUIDE OF WINNY POO
MACARRON THE COVE
GIN MI FLOKE
ABITITTA ZA INNI
SHARK AROUND
IN DI GANE DINI
GIN MI FLOW
GAMA GIMI INI INI BLOW

SHARK AROUND SHARK AROUND & THE MACARRON
SHARK AROUND SHARK AROUND & THE MACARRON
SHARK AROUND MACARRON SHARK AROUND MACARRON
INA FOKE NIKA FOKE & THE MACARRON

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MACARRON
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MACARRON
------------
Windower does not "run FFXI in its own memory space" like Warden was for Glider.

[Khamsin]

Spoke to Aikar. My initial position was correct in that Windower subverts a windows process and not an FFXI one.

Windower does not directly modify the game client and thus this ruling is not applicable to it.

So SE just needs to bring it to Microsoft's attention, call in a favor or two, and...

[Kenji]

Calm down, guys. You aren't losing your security blanket anytime soon. The only one taking the risk is you, if they decide to ban people for using it. No, the game won't die if they ban windower users, as they are a small fraction of the playerbase. If BG becomes a ghost town, a new LS forum will emerge for endgamers; full of people who weren't scared of losing their blankie.

Now how about focusing your energies on getting SE to incorporate some of the plugins, if you like them so much? Or go play WoW, where you can mod your game into oblivion?

On second thought, I remember my WoW raiding days well. Get this addon. And this one, too. And that one. And before I knew it, my screen was 70% covered with bars, displays, guages, counters, warnings, etc., so that I could barely tell what was going on. My 2 gigs of RAM so filled with add-ons, that things started slowing down. I've seen what happens when you start down that slippery slope.

And lol at some people being reduced to using join dates and post counts to win an argument. Where's that "Remember kids, the higher your post count, the bigger your penis is!" graphic?