New Kaeko post - with boobs!

[Kaeko]

I think a lot of people get confused by the BLU zoning. If you zone, it typically resets hate, but if you "zone into the same zone" it does not. That's the whole basis of the strategy.

I know from some limited experience with AV and watching other groups that it will follow you until the end of time IF you manage to actually secure some form of CE. I do not think it will follow you indefinitely if you 1) assume alliance or party aggro, 2) assume you're on the hate list when it pops, 3) if you pull with ranged attack and miss. If you do something like cure someone with actual hate or do something to AV itself, I promise you it will follow until you die or reset.

The hold idea I'm actually extremely confident that it works. How to DD it correctly, quickly, and without any hate shifts, is the thing I'm more focused on right now. BLMs would indeed eventually take hate. Really only methods of DD that involve no hate would seem to work longterm - PUP DD, SMN DD, or Bio spam (hate is not based on damage, but is static on Bio).

[Virtuous Saint]

The idea is extremely easy to test, and anyone could do it. I will try to get my ls to try this if we get AV to spawn on next JoLs, but it will likely have been tried by then I hope.

[Suiram]

Since you said you've been working on the damage-dealt enmity formula, assuming a BLU could get 8040 CE on pull with a COR to reset JAs, how much damage could another job output before they passed the BLU's CE? Maybe assume the DD have -15 enmity since I don't think that's unreasonable for even a mediocre BLM to get if they try.

[tymora]

Does it matter if someone pulls hate? Will die and it will resume the chase?

[Virtuous Saint]

Does it matter if someone pulls hate? Will die and it will resume the chase?

Well if it works as suggested, and AV's AI is locked until it uses say a WS when it has SAM 2hr on, then when someone pulled hate not only would they die and kill everyone around them likely, but they would let it use those WS and go back into being able to use benediction ect. As for now the main problem with someone pulling hate would be death that will follow if it does AoE near others, as we do not know if AI would lock like suggested.

[Budonez]

Does it matter if someone pulls hate? Will die and it will resume the chase?

It'll use it's stored abilities or 2 hour and possibly killing multiple people at once.
edit: beaten...

[Cloudius]

But if it's chasing some1 and no1 pulls hate it supposably should not do anything (2hr or TP move) till it finds the d00d it's chasing.

If you have people dealing DMG to it, at some point someone will pull hate, and that is pretty much impossible to get around I believe, even if someone used shadowbind it would choose any target in range in pt and use the AI it has stored, and thus could 2hr right after? Even if you had it perfect and the shadowbinder was out of range, and everyone else was, and you did time nuke it would still eventually have hate on someone dealing dmg, purely from someone getting capped CE at some point which would be over w/e the BLU could attain at the start?

Have a RNG and an alliance of BLMs, SMNs, and PUPs stationed all over the place, and the RNG binds AV when he passes by then BLMs and PUPs time nuke, SMN BP and log off or warp out. This way AV won't change his target off the BLU runner, and it would supposably be in a state of lock.

Only three problems:
- Will the BLU rly not lose hate from posing all over the place and being at a very long distance from AV?
- Going unclaimed could result into some1 stealing/fucking with you/drama-llama
- Spamming your 2hr and using an earth staff doesn't fit in this strat. wtf!?!?

[Virtuous Saint]

But if it's chasing some1 and no1 pulls hate it supposably should not do anything (2hr or TP move) till it finds the d00d it's chasing.

Have a RNG and an alliance of BLMs, SMNs, and PUPs stationed all over the place, and the RNG binds AV when he passes by then BLMs and PUPs time nuke, SMN BP and log off or warp out. This way AV won't change his target off the BLU runner, and it would supposably be in a state of lock.

Only three problems:
- Will the BLU rly not lose hate from posing all over the place and being at a very long distance from AV?
- Going unclaimed could result into some1 stealing/fucking with you/drama-llama
- Spamming your 2hr and using an earth staff doesn't fit in this strat. wtf!?!?

Actually, you can't take yourself off the hate list I don't think. If you zone without being on top of hate list, or log off nothing happens, the only thing that happens is you are constantly losing the VE you had gained by going w/e you did, but this same result would occur if you just stand there. I forget, haven't checked his enmity posts in a few weeks, but maybe death to anything will wipe all CE.

[Izzy]

I wish people would test these outrageous theories before posting them here. Sure it's great on paper, but if you can manage to pull this off without fucking it up you're some sort of miracle worker.

[Ashira]

I wish people would test these outrageous theories before posting them here. Sure it's great on paper, but if you can manage to pull this off without fucking it up you're some sort of miracle worker.

Did you.. read the thread/post? At all?

[Charismatic]

Did you.. read the thread/post? At all?

No, he was too busy looking for the boobs you promised, like me.
Momo balls aren't boobs.

I'm very disappointed.

[Kaeko]

I wish people would test these outrageous theories before posting them here. Sure it's great on paper, but if you can manage to pull this off without fucking it up you're some sort of miracle worker.

I've tested this personally to the point where I know the updraft trick works on the local enemies. I've also personally seen for myself or messed with AV a couple of the other mechanics - I've just never actually personally put it all together on AV. I wouldn't call it some outrageous theory because I do have at least some basis for why it should work.

The whole idea is this should be as easy in practice as reading on paper. If you still don't think its worth a click then sorry for wasting your time. Perhaps it is just the stigma of so many random AV threads in the past. If you think it belongs in the other section I honestly don't mind - those interested can still find it just as easily and discuss there, and you can keep the advanced section to your liking.

[Izzy]

I've tested this personally to the point where I know the updraft trick works on the local enemies. I've also personally seen for myself or messed with AV a couple of the other mechanics - I've just never actually personally put it all together on AV. I wouldn't call it some outrageous theory because I do have at least some basis for why it should work.

The whole idea is this should be as easy in practice as reading on paper. If you still don't think its worth a click then sorry for wasting your time. Perhaps it is just the stigma of so many random AV threads in the past. If you think it belongs in the other section I honestly don't mind - those interested can still find it just as easily and discuss there, and you can keep the advanced section to your liking.

I mean on a much grander scale. I've done this before with normal mobs, I'm saying it's rather hard to get a LS of people to do things right without one lazy useless moron who wasn't paying attention to screw it all up.

[Virtuous Saint]

Kaeko what I need from you is vent info, if you have it plz you know.. AV talk and such, not kidding either.

[Tarage]

Not enough boobs. Wait... am I a boob for typing this? O-shi!

[Kkel]

You could always get an alliance of Dragoons (HA!) to chase it around. It'd take a billion years to kill, but Super Jump would make sure that the BLU always stayed on the top of the hate list and you could range-error any of AV's offensive 2-hours with it if you're afraid of it resetting the proposed lock.

>_>

[Kaeko]

Kaeko what I need from you is vent info, if you have it plz you know.. AV talk and such, not kidding either.

I don't have it

PM is probably best I can do atm since I'm overseas.

[fndragon]

You could always get an alliance of Dragoons (HA!) to chase it around. It'd take a billion years to kill, but Super Jump would make sure that the BLU always stayed on the top of the hate list and you could range-error any of AV's offensive 2-hours with it if you're afraid of it resetting the proposed lock.

>_>

As much fun as Super Jump is, you'll need to do damage to AV as he zips at enhanced movement rates around the map. That basically limits damage to BLM and RNG. And maybe BLU if you can set up Cannonball in a fraction of a second (and then NOT pull hate). Sure, you can shadowbind->timed nuke it, but that also means it's not very melee-friendly as the first hit will send it running after the kiter again.

Hmm.. Thinking about it again, you could Jump/Hi-Jump as he flies by, but given the transit times, it's just not good damage over time.

Has anybody done any research / have any idea how the elemental nuking of the day kills his regen? Is it a continuous thing or once you break the regen you can stop with that element? Any idea of the number of spells / amount of damage needed to break the regen? With a perpetually kited AV, this kind of thing will become important if you can't do enough damage to break the regen over time.

[Spekkio]

You could always get an alliance of Dragoons (HA!) to chase it around. It'd take a billion years to kill, but Super Jump would make sure that the BLU always stayed on the top of the hate list and you could range-error any of AV's offensive 2-hours with it if you're afraid of it resetting the proposed lock.

>_>

actually, you're not far off how i was thinking we could mitigate this. i was assuming blm damage w/ nukes of the day since i seem to remember hearing that any non-day element caused him to go berserk (correct me if i'm wrong.) so how can a blm shed hate? well, i seem to remember that back when i started this game in 04, i heard about some players mucking about with the possibility of using whm/drg and using hi jump to cut hate down on longer fights. i'm wondering if this would be possible to resurrect for this fight.

let's assume that your blu managed to get off a full diffusion exuviation under sentinel effect thereby resulting in 640*2*6=7680 CE. while this may be somewhat difficult to accomplish, a pld using invincible under sentinel will cap VE and thus could hold AV w/o losing hate for several seconds while the blu ran like hell for the updraft. this is critical b/c this is all the CE the blu will get for the whole fight in all likelihood. it may be possible to augment this by shadowbinding av far enough out that he's out of casting range but inside the hate radius, thereby allowing the blu to cap CE at 10,000, but that sounds tricky and risky. regardless, let's assume the blu will have 7680 CE throughout the fight and 0 VE since he'll never gain more hate on AV after the initial exuviation.

let's also make some very very crude assumptions about nuke damage. let's assume that a nuke of the day on AV will produce for the blm 1000 CE and 1000 VE. i severely doubt this is accurate or even remotely close. i'm just trying to overshoot so i know that if it is less as i suspect, we'll be fine. let's also assume that the lolwiki article is correct in assuming that the enmity reduction of hi jump is 33%. let's assume it takes 3 minutes for a full "lap" to one of the updrafts. probably takes more, i'm just trying to give the benefit of the doubt. 60 VE/S *60s/m*3m=10,800. not only would the 1k VE decay, but even if you capped VE, it would be gone in just under 3 minutes. so when AV approaches the blm, the blm will have some quantity of CE and 0 VE.

let's assume the following cycle is used: HJ>Shadowbind>Nuke. for the sequence F(0)=0 F(n+1)=F(n)*2/3+1000, it should be fairly simple to see that the limit as N goes to infinity is 3000 CE, well below the 7680 that the blu has on them, even when the 1000 VE the blm will temporarily have is tabulated in.

let's assume we want to low man this b/c we're afraid of izzy's very valid concern that accuracy of execution is inversely related to the number of people involved. using this strategy, one would need 1 blu/pld, 1 rng, and 4 blm. assuming a 5 minute lap time (shadowbind has a 5 minute recast timer) and assuming that the rng does NOT shoot (probably could, but i dunno how to calculate either enmity on that, nor the damage) and assuming that blm damage sucks hard on AV (iirc, it does badly) let's guess that a blm will do 333 damage on a tier 4 nuke, just to make the math pretty. with 4 blm, that's 1333 damage per 5 minutes. assuming no regen since we'd have locked it, that's 26,600 damage per hour, or if i remember AV's HP estimate from the benedictions (120,000 HP) about 5 hours to kill AV with 6 people.

these numbers are based on an awful lot of estimations though, and it may be that it would take far less or far more time to do it. on the other hand, this strategy is remarkably simple and could plausibly be scaled up to use more blm. if we added 2 extra parties packed w/ blm/drg, this would increase our damage output from 4 blm to 16, reducing time to kill to about an hour and 20 minutes, not much more than we used to spend knocking out kirin.

ofc, all of this is predicated upon the observation that if AV is in the middle of a sam 2 hr, he won't try to do anything else until he successfully WSes someone and that the someone must have hate and be in range. if this observation is shown to be false, this whole strategy is a wash.

[Norellicus]

If a THF steals enmity using Collaborator and zones, is the enmity nulled or returned to its original owner?

Seems like you could keep it off your DDs that way, whether they be BLM or what have you.