New Kaeko post - with boobs!

[Changz]

As I understand it, once the emnity is stolen it just becomes the THF's emnity. After that, regular hate mechanics apply in regards to zoning, etc.

As crazy as it sounds, Spekkio's idea seems a lot more efficient in regards to the DD's self-maintaining hate. EDIT: I wrote some corny line about BLM/DRG jumping, it wasn't that funny though.

[Kaeko]

The Hi Jump idea actually isn't a terrible idea...

I'll try to put more Enmity values behind this idea. From the preliminary testing a couple players have done (not myself in this particular instance, but the #s I have suggest his are reasonable), the enmity gained from damage dealt works like this...

1) Based only on the level of the MOB attacked (in this case, AV).
2) A 75 mob (steelshell tested) has the formula of CE = ~1.52 * Damage.
3) This value will continue to scale DOWN for higher levels like AV.

I need to test the VE granted by damage taken. If we assume it's the same as Curing Enmity, then it will be 6x the CE. I'll try to test this ASAP when I get back online.

I've been unable to test hi jump so we'll have to work on that but let's assume it's 33%...

In order to keep your BLMs' hate below the BLU/PLD (CE = 7680), you have to make sure CE +VE remains below this number, so the high amount of VE upon attack will be the issue I think. Let's try to ballpark some values with these assumptions...

1) Assume AV is lvl75, therefore its damage dealt CE modifier is ~1.52 (we know it's LOWER).
2) Assume the amount of VE gained is x6 the amount of CE gained like cures (I'll test this ASAP when I can).
3) Assume BLMs have 0 enmity enhancement (they should have at least some -enmity though).
4) Assume 500 damage nuke damage.
5) Hi Jump is -33% enmity.

CE = ~1.52 x 500 = 760
VE = ~1.52 x 500 x 6 = 4560

If we assume these values, the highest amount of CE stored on a BLM possible w/o taking hate from a 500 damage nuke is 7680-760-4560 = 2360. Any CE value stored on a BLM higher than this will result in hate shift after nuke.

Now Hi Jump... Let's just assume it's -33%. If a BLM has over 2360 CE stored just before nuking, when he Hi-Jumps, he'll lose AT LEAST 0.33x2360CE = 786CE... which EXCEEDS the amount of CE gained from a 500 damage nuke. This means that a BLM that uses Hi Jump just before he nukes in this case will always retain a CE stored value lower than 2360 (this is good!).

Math-wise this works with the assumptions made... Tests have to be done on the % hate shed of Hi Jump as well as the VE gain from damage dealt. I don't know the exact CE modifier for a lvl 85 mob (AV is 85?), so best to assume the 75 value, but it'll be a bit lower. Also, this assumes 0 enmity down gear, which most BLMs will have some of when they nuke in damage gear.

BLM/DRG may actually work (on paper) ...

[evilpaul]

I skipped from page 1->5...are there any boobs in the meantime?

[Kaeko]

Also... BLU/PLD can go ahead and cap 10,000 CE if you apply some extra coordination. Keep a group of RNGs between AV and the BLU to start. Shadowbind lasts a reliable 20-30 seconds on AV (Shadowbind is so reliable...). You can Bind it, then quickly use like Exuviation to get an extra 640+ CE a couple times until you cap. A bit excessive but if your BLU is very good shouldn't be too hard.

I know this little bit starts getting into the extreme as far as being able to pull of, but it only involves 1 extremely coordinated player - I know it's near impossible to coordinate groups this well, but 1 good player can pull this off I think.

*********

Also, this BLM/DRG idea doesn't actually involve much coordination among members. Really it's up to each individual BLM to make sure they...

1) Actually use Hi Jump... doesn't have to land, but has to be used.
2) Don't do anything stupid as far as extra hate moves like Stunning.
3) Don't nuke excessively with like Elemental Seal Spirit Lantern Freeze II.
4) Don't stand in melee range of AV.
5) Don't nuke early and break bind (this actually won't kill you but it's just annoying).

Kinda sucks that alot of BLMs dont have DRG high enough to Hi Jump though.

[Xanthe]

If a THF steals enmity using Collaborator and zones, is the enmity nulled or returned to its original owner?

Seems like you could keep it off your DDs that way, whether they be BLM or what have you.

Zoning doesn't cause a loss of enmity.

[Xanthe]

Also, this BLM/DRG idea doesn't actually involve much coordination among members. Really it's up to each individual BLM to make sure they...

6) Only use it when they are AV's current target.

It's fairly easy to show that High Jump doesn't reduce enmity if used at a time you are not the current target.

[Kaeko]

6) Only use it when they are AV's current target.

It's fairly easy to show that High Jump doesn't reduce enmity if used at a time you are not the current target.

Should probably test Hi Jump before speculating further. So you're saying it only has an effect when the mob has interest in you... hmm...

I'm not a huge fan of using THF hate shifting moves simply because the CE doesn't actually diminish, it just gets transfered to another player (who can eventually take hate if it steals too much and caps CE).

[Max™]

It is?

Here I had hopes of seeing hordes of Blm/Drg's as the new wave, pelting things with tarus as the wave of the future...

Then in comes Xanthe to utterly destroy my humorous dreams.

T.T

Meanie.

[Charismatic]

I skipped from page 1->5...are there any boobs in the meantime?

Unfortunately, no.

[Max™]

NSFW BOOBIE PIC!

Spoiler: show

http://www.amazingjourneys.net/2008%...apagos-big.jpg
Sup, you expected something else?

[Xanthe]

Should probably test Hi Jump before speculating further. So you're saying it only has an effect when the mob has interest in you... hmm...

I'm not a huge fan of using THF hate shifting moves simply because the CE doesn't actually diminish, it just gets transfered to another player (who can eventually take hate if it steals too much and caps CE).

Yeah, I've seen much evidence to support the active target bit. Often times I will be riding the hate line with tanks or other DDs and in instances where I am not the current target High Jump will pull hate and make me the target whereas when I am already the target and use High Jump it will turn away and stay turned without any other action on the other party's behalf. The same applies to Super Jump which is an even more conclusive test since there is no damage involved.

[Max™]

That actually kind of coincides with my experiences doing War/Drg for sky/sea/dyna farming, I land a crit double jump and get hate, high jump and it turns.

I land a double jump and don't get hate, land a crit double high jump and then get hate sealed on my cute little ass.

[Spekkio]

GAH! why you gotta throw a monkey wrench in my plans? i thought it was a really good idea! my next best strategy was blm/smn using retreat over and over again to shed hate since it's bizzarely a -10 CE effect. that or a drg/drk with a kclub jumping...

also, i wanted to mention that if you CAN shed hate w/o being the target, blm should have a macro to shed their weapon and have h2h. that way you can actually bind BEFORE you jump since you'll either miss or deal 0 damage and won't break shadowbind. it's very possible too that the behavior of hi jump will change somewhat if shadowbind is active. not likely, but since he does melee anyone in range, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that hi jump's behavior will change somehow.

anyway, afk, lvling drg. (wheee! i'd be such a cute taru drg! now if only we could convince SE to let tarus ride their wyverns as a flying mount...)

[Xanthe]

The simple solution is to nuke until you pull and hold hate then High Jump. Rest MP, wait until recast is close to up, repeat.

[tymora]

Can have the BLM warp > teleport > walk back
Or d2 the melee having loads of hate to reset it.

Or have everyone /whm and just teleport after a nuke or WS (or a couple). Merry AV should be running on its marathon still.

Not instant, but it should help somewhat.

[Spekkio]

Can have the BLM warp > teleport > walk back
Or d2 the melee having loads of hate to reset it.

Or have everyone /whm and just teleport after a nuke or WS (or a couple). Merry AV should be running on its marathon still.

Not instant, but it should help somewhat.

it's been said before: zoning doesn't remove hate. only if you manage to become the target of the mob and aren't there can you be purged from the hate list.

[evilpaul]

The simple solution is to nuke until you pull and hold hate then High Jump. Rest MP, wait until recast is close to up, repeat.

Would a BLM who pulls hate on AV as /DRG really live long enough to consistently High Jump it away?

[Spekkio]

Would a BLM who pulls hate on AV as /DRG really live long enough to consistently High Jump it away?

if they pull hate, it's game over. AV will close the gap to his target before you get hi jump off, will use his last WS, and will be able to benediction whenever he has the mind to. using this setup for anything more than holding is based almost exclusively on the idea that AV won't try to do anything else while he's trying to execute a sam 2 hr to completion.

[Xanthe]

Would a BLM who pulls hate on AV as /DRG really live long enough to consistently High Jump it away?

Woosh.

[ismarc]

I've got a comment unrelated to the current discussions going on, and unfortunately, is something that other folks would consider an "idea killer." Regarding the portion of the post labeled "Benediction Lock?"...I think Kaeko's on the right track...for a previous incarnation of Absolute Virtue. It's been summed up before, but the previously lockable Absolute Virtue was by repeatedly killing the wynavs. My (unprovable and untestable) conclusion on this is that AV "decided" the next action to take. The end result was that if AV "decided" to use nin/smn two-hour, but the wynavs were killed prior to executing it, AV then appeared locked. The fix for the locking seemed to allow for AV to "give up" on an action (or better determine which action to execute) if it was no longer possible to execute.

I think the rules and behavior of bound enemies will be more of an issue than worrying about Benediction, however. The instant people within the same alliance get within casting (or melee) range of AV, it will open up on those folks while shadowbound, rather than caring about the out of range blu/pld. Properly spaced, you could theoretically test things this way, but you still have the fact that all you're doing is keeping AV from completely deaggroing, instead of being able to mitigate damage done to the testers.