WoTLK Beta

[Rivero]

I'm pretty terrible at arenas, I psych myself out too much and I end up making stupid mistakes. A lot of people complain that they don't want to do arenas to get their base line PvP gear but I think in my case I can just do fully without. I've avoided arenas pretty much altogether and never ever felt like I was "forced" to arena. It's worked out fine for me.

The worst part though is even if you are terrible at arenas you can still lose an easy 70-80% of your matches and still get points. I think the system is a bit flawed itself because it still rewards you with points when you don't really technically work for it. I remember when TBC first came out the Arena was actually "fun"...

Now its people in full season 4 in the 1400-1500's bracket. It's really difficult to get started when your opponents are all covered in season 3/season 4.

I heard a suggestion of keeping PvP Gear to be only usable in PvP Scenarios and I think that's perfect. If you're gonna give everyone idiot gear that "LOOKS" equivalent and almost is equivalent then he should only be able to use it for what it's true purpose was intended for and that's PvP. It's bad enough I have to see people with gear that looks just as cool as Sunwell yet have never stepped a fucking foot in anything outside Gruul/Kara.

And I still have yet to see any intentions of stripping resilience, and I don't understand why they haven't already.

[Saphirea]

Resilience sucks my ass... Same with Arenas ... It's forced too many PvE nerfs due to little whiny bastards QQing about arenas. Looking at you Ret Pally.

[Gulkeeva]

PVP gear in wotlk is noticeably different from PVE epics .

and... you can pretty much rape pvp people in pve gear atm (1vs1 anyway)

[Lbelle]

Resilience sucks my ass... Same with Arenas ... It's forced too many PvE nerfs due to little whiny bastards QQing about arenas. Looking at you Ret Pally.

Don't you have a ret pally?

[Ramor]

I do hate resilience, but I think without it (especially lately) that people would just drop wayyy too fast for healers to be able to do anything, I tried rolling in AV with my PvE gear on my hunter and more than once a S4 paladin (the same one, had S3 sword) just walked up to me and basically dropped me on the spot before his stun wore off, I threw on some resilience gear (had a bit more stam too I suppose) and I ended up being able to live just long enough to get away from him and let a healer get me back up before the long kite/dot.

[Gulkeeva]

I do hate resilience, but I think without it (especially lately) that people would just drop wayyy too fast for healers to be able to do anything, I tried rolling in AV with my PvE gear on my hunter and more than once a S4 paladin (the same one, had S3 sword) just walked up to me and basically dropped me on the spot before his stun wore off, I threw on some resilience gear (had a bit more stam too I suppose) and I ended up being able to live just long enough to get away from him and let a healer get me back up before the long kite/dot.

I wear crap on my hunter.. but as BM.. I can just pop bestial.. negate every form of CC S3/S4 ret pally can do and kill them easy. and by crap gear I mean lv 64-68 greens/blues (although started getting lv 70 epics now from kara/za)

At Lv80, resilience is pretty much a joke though, PVE geared people can kill you pretty fast. You just do so much damage it really doesn't matter.

Lv80 Dk 26,000 hp with 20,000+ armor!? np, pop bestial, conc shot... kite around... by time bestial is off, he's probably at 2-5K hp and I may have lost a possible 4-5K

[Rivero]

I do hate resilience, but I think without it (especially lately) that people would just drop wayyy too fast for healers to be able to do anything, I tried rolling in AV with my PvE gear on my hunter and more than once a S4 paladin (the same one, had S3 sword) just walked up to me and basically dropped me on the spot before his stun wore off, I threw on some resilience gear (had a bit more stam too I suppose) and I ended up being able to live just long enough to get away from him and let a healer get me back up before the long kite/dot.

But thats why you need to get rid of it. Because honestly things like resto druids are a bitch enough to outdps against, add the fact that you're probably dealing with half damage on crits/reduced damage on actual non-crits and then factor resist/dodge/parry/block rate. People have their own methods to survive by themselves, it shouldn't be "I need a healer or we can't win anything".

Because thats pretty much what arena has become Druid + Some DPS or Healer + Anything.
I think if you're on the ball and got good skills you will heal fine because old world PvP didn't have resilience and people healed just fine.

There is always the possibility of a one-shot but it won't happen more than maybe once in 50 matches, 25 matches?

You know resilience might not be a bad idea, I frankly think its a retarded statistic because of the unfair advantages it has when you are a melee vs caster but that's not my main issue. My main issue is that things like resilience literally fuck teams that have no longevity. Yes having a healer is nice but some people might not roll that way. I didn't and I was doing just fine in season 1. We had a peak of 2050 arena rating for a 2v2 and it was Elemental Shaman with Affliction Warlock. We did fine, we had our matches where we simply got outlasted by a healer for example and couldn't bring them down fast enough, and then we had our favorite warrior + healer in which we butt-fuck the warrior in 5s and the healer afks out.

But as it stands resilience is just a poorly made statistic and I see no real change in gameplay with it being removed.

I don't know about the rest but I love seeing big crits. It's not always going to happen but the thought of seeing my crits halved just kind of makes me disappointed in the system while a warrior is critting me as hard as he would with a PvE set.

[Correction]

You wouldn't be so down on resilience if you'd take a moment to remember what it was like in the old Grand Marshall days and warriors were basically two-shotting clothies in half a second. Even in BWL epics you had at most 5.5k hit points, which only took about 3 swings for a rank 14 MS warrior to whittle through alone.

[Bweigelt]

You wouldn't be so down on resilience if you'd take a moment to remember what it was like in the old Grand Marshall days and warriors were basically two-shotting clothies in half a second. Even in BWL epics you had at most 5.5k hit points, which only took about 3 swings for a rank 14 MS warrior to whittle through alone.

I miss the days where Shadowmeld + Aimed shot + Multishot = Dead clothy before they even saw you. But seriously Resilience was definitely a needed change, that or buff everyone's health to rediculous levels.

[Rivero]

You wouldn't be so down on resilience if you'd take a moment to remember what it was like in the old Grand Marshall days and warriors were basically two-shotting clothies in half a second. Even in BWL epics you had at most 5.5k hit points, which only took about 3 swings for a rank 14 MS warrior to whittle through alone.

I miss those days actually.

That warrior deserved to two shot noobs.

Do you remember how much of a bitch it was to honor grind to Grand Marshal? Don't compare me with one of those new players who started playing when TBC came out. I've been playing WoW since about 2-3 months before they released Blackwing Lair.

It wasn't always you'd find a rank 14 ms warrior by the way, and when you did you knew what fear meant and you wouldn't dare cross his path.

This game lost the meaning of "fear". Nothing is scary anymore because this game has no real challenge to it as it used to in old-WoW.

It's fine to justify one person being able to gain from his "hard work" and have a higher advantage over others. Can you take down a rank 14 MS warrior? Yes you can, in fact warriors were so easily destroyed back then by mages it wasn't even funny. The game did receive a lot of balances, some needed and some completely stupid but I think WoW has lost its flair over the years.

[Correction]

Don't forget that 'those days' also were the days when Preparation reset the CD on Blind and naked rogues could keep someone in full epics stunlocked from 100% to 0% life most of the time. You only look fondly on something in the past if your memory is selective. Warriors were preposterous pre-TBC, and Grand Marshal in plate with a 2h was plenty fearsome while a Grand Marshal in cloth was still getting 2-shotted. Those days sucked, admit it

[Rivero]

I loved those days, Correction.

I'd give every epic I have right now to revert the game back to the way it was.

You're right on the concept that things like being able to chain-kite people was just incredibly stupid and some mechanics needed adjusting.

And Grand Marshal in cloth was plenty damn fearsome from all the crit and spell damage he had over you. It gave huge amounts of stats and great spell/crit.

Honestly I'm not saying they ditch "new-WoW" but this resilience thing really needs to go. I'm tired of losing a 2v1 to a druid who can simply run and heal and moonfire us while doing laps and not taking any hits. I could care less if it was a Warsong or an AV, people will always bitch about some random thing like omg 10 rogues in warsong or some guy entered AV fully potted with two guildy healers.

Shit like that don't bother me, but when I'm in an arena for god sake. I don't want to lose EVERY TIME to two fucking prep rogues just cause I'm a shaman and my partner is an affliction warlock who can't do shit either. You want to know the worst part? If we do try and fight back we have to chew through 11k HP/a huge arsenal of defenses/resistances and to top it off you want our crits/damage halved? That's too much.

I can only assume you are playing a melee class Correction or anyone who justifies that resilience should be kept. Why? 'Cause melee suffer nothing from resilience. If we want gear that has resilience as a caster we need to sacrifice hit/int/crit/spell damage etc.

But as a melee all that matters is your weapon. You know your gear won't be subpar either and you know you'll crit just as hard as a PvE equivalent warrior if not more frequent maybe. Whats my defense against a warrior? 10,000 armor if I opt to wear a shield which I must in this case, but lets assume I'm a clothie with less armor.

I'm not going to get into a which class sucks vs which class discussion. But the one point I want to make is that removing resilience will give classes that had no chance to win against their opponents some new hope that they really deserve. Did you notice classes like warriors/rogues become fucking brick-walls in arenas, and that you rarely see any other class like that? (except resto druid obviously : /)

My last statement is that some classes NEED to be able to one-shot (not literally one-shot but take them out in a short amount of time) because if they don't they simply can't sustain combat as well as other classes. As a shaman I have no polymorph and evocate my mana back. I go OOM and I am fucked, period. Whats my compensation? I can crit you for 3-4k and probably dish a huge amount of damage in 10s.

And there's always a counter to prevent getting one-shotted so don't talk like you can do nothing to control it either.

[Correction]

The WotLK mechanics on CC seem to highly encourage that you use them with less abandon as before. Pushback is getting normalized so what you can and can't cast is getting more manageable. Snares and Stuns can only be reduced in effectiveness instead of resisted altogether. Breaks on nova/fear are now fully predictable. Your ability to know how much longer someone is going to live before you can kill them is less RNG-ey all around and this is the direction they seem to be taking with Arena. Maybe resilience can be scaled back when these new mechanics get tested out in Wintergrasp/Strand and eventually, S5 but for now I agree it is a massive race between the explosive growth of crits from melee weaponry versus the lack of offensive powers a lot of caster classes have gone through since Season 1 hit the scene.

Honestly what I want to see go is the 2v2 bracket, as it seems long term the most silly to balance classes around. Every time a change is made to adjust the balance curve in 2v2 it breaks some essential shit elsewhere and vice-versa.

[fantasticdan]

I loved those days, Correction.

I'd give every epic I have right now to revert the game back to the way it was.

You're right on the concept that things like being able to chain-kite people was just incredibly stupid and some mechanics needed adjusting.

And Grand Marshal in cloth was plenty damn fearsome from all the crit and spell damage he had over you. It gave huge amounts of stats and great spell/crit.

Honestly I'm not saying they ditch "new-WoW" but this resilience thing really needs to go. I'm tired of losing a 2v1 to a druid who can simply run and heal and moonfire us while doing laps and not taking any hits. I could care less if it was a Warsong or an AV, people will always bitch about some random thing like omg 10 rogues in warsong or some guy entered AV fully potted with two guildy healers.

Shit like that don't bother me, but when I'm in an arena for god sake. I don't want to lose EVERY TIME to two fucking prep rogues just cause I'm a shaman and my partner is an affliction warlock who can't do shit either. You want to know the worst part? If we do try and fight back we have to chew through 11k HP/a huge arsenal of defenses/resistances and to top it off you want our crits/damage halved? That's too much.

I can only assume you are playing a melee class Correction or anyone who justifies that resilience should be kept. Why? 'Cause melee suffer nothing from resilience. If we want gear that has resilience as a caster we need to sacrifice hit/int/crit/spell damage etc.

But as a melee all that matters is your weapon. You know your gear won't be subpar either and you know you'll crit just as hard as a PvE equivalent warrior if not more frequent maybe. Whats my defense against a warrior? 10,000 armor if I opt to wear a shield which I must in this case, but lets assume I'm a clothie with less armor.

I'm not going to get into a which class sucks vs which class discussion. But the one point I want to make is that removing resilience will give classes that had no chance to win against their opponents some new hope that they really deserve. Did you notice classes like warriors/rogues become fucking brick-walls in arenas, and that you rarely see any other class like that? (except resto druid obviously : /)

My last statement is that some classes NEED to be able to one-shot (not literally one-shot but take them out in a short amount of time) because if they don't they simply can't sustain combat as well as other classes. As a shaman I have no polymorph and evocate my mana back. I go OOM and I am fucked, period. Whats my compensation? I can crit you for 3-4k and probably dish a huge amount of damage in 10s.

And there's always a counter to prevent getting one-shotted so don't talk like you can do nothing to control it either.

To the bolded part, melee lose offensive stats like atk/hit/str/agi just like casters do on pvp gear. To the rest of your post; you're a terrible player and have no idea what you're talking about.

[Plow]

I <3 WoW forums

Spoiler: show

Its sad how everyone thinks ret is OP im going to be honest and im sure everyone agrees ret has a lot of burst and if we got our hammer up any warrior rogue hunter will die omfg you can trinket but you will simply die the next time we use it lol. Its fixed now they are nerfing us but WTF is up with locks mages and rogues complaining about us. Im writing this in a PVP perspective because everyone QQING is QQING because of PVP issues not PVE. 1st off warriors cant kill paladins and they know it and im happy I haven't seen too many warriors qqing about ret, but omfg give a warrior a healer and WOW they get 2k in arena, with a priest paladin DRUID SHAMAN any healer works ill get back to that later. And if you do happen to be in arena as a warrior and don't know how to spell reflect retaliate last stand, or fear that's cause you suck my point is you can completely mitigate our damage. Mages WTF I read a mage QQing about ret paladins in mmo-champion and how we can kill mages and that's just stupid. If a mage cant kill a ret paladin then they suck. In arena they can completely CC. us paladins can be CC'ed so easy we got 1 TRINKET and a bubble that after we pop we die. If you don't know how to sheep CS our heal and KITE then you suck end of story. Mages throw up the same burst as ret and its worst since they actually can CC and CS, I mean WTF is up with fire mages doing 6k crits, all they need to do is cc or cs something and something else dies even as frost. Now I got a bigger problem with locks IF you are a DEMONOLOGY LOCK and cant kill a ret paladin in arena then you suck. WHAT you don't know how to fear death coil trinket have your fel hunter eat our stun USE healthstone, UMM SILENCE. Its pathetic how locks think they suck now when at 80 they are all going to have soul link. What now that you have to fear you suddenly are not op only because you could tank anyone in arena before and not anymore unless your demonology you suck. In my opinion demonoly locks should get nerfed and its stupid how Blizzard is basing its buffs and nerfs off PVE when everyone QQing is qqing about pvp. Now druids if you cant heal through ret dps then you suck. We have 2 stuns and one you can trinket which if you are smart you trinket hoj if you trinket repentance your just plain stupid. After that we cant interrupt anything. What you don't now how to go bear or cyclone. If a pala pops wings its simpe you cc him its not hard to cc paladins unless you completely suck. its funny when I see druid go traveling form when a pala is on him and he has jusdgement of justice on. Heres a tip! Go BEAR!!!!! Or trinket it and run away then. Dot tunnel vision know when we use stun WE DO HAVE a 1 minute cooldown!!! And repentance doesn't after u will ina form! Though I haven't seen much druids QQing but just thought to clear things up. Now Hunters I honestly completely understand if you think ret is op I mean you guys just have nothing against us unless your BM and we can just bubble through your BM or heal so I feel you my respects to any 2k rated hunter that's not in 5v5 lol. Honestly Blizz has to fix hunters for arena yes there is some druid hunters teams with 2.3k but that's because they probably have completely no life and are extremely extremely good, and yes you guys deserve better arena talents or something. Also shamans you know you have instant heals but yea you to have it hard against us but its normal I mean actually you guys have it hard against anything! LoL. Just like mages can kill warriors, mages can kill rogues, mages can kill paladins, mages can kill shamans, warriors can kill shamans, warriors can kill priests, warriors can kill anything if they have a healer in 2v2, Just like shamans can kill druids, shamans can kill locks, shamans can kill priests, shamsn HAVE BLOOD LUST(OP) the totem that makes the biggest difference in the world. Shamans got buffed and they should be happy. Just like druids are godlike in arena if they are resto (NERF), no druid should complain EVER!, Just like locks can kill anything but maybe rogues YES they can kill paladins! Just like Shaman can kill druids, priests, locks not sure about anything else, yes you have it hard and so do hunters im not sure what hunters can kill but druids, actually im not sure. Priests well I dunno disc priests can completely live through ret dps IF you can THEN reroll because that's sad. Now IM ACTUALLY WRITING THIS for stupid noob rogues that are the ones that seem to be complaining the most. Its retarded you know ill admit yes we can kill you! But you should just stfu because mutilate is ridiculous. You can kill mages locks druids warriors shamans priests no matter what spec they are and maybe hunters I don't know, WHAT YOU CANT KILL ONE CLASS AND OMFG lets QQ and make blizz nerf ret paladins and I admit we did need a burst nerf just not as big as the one we got AND HOPEFULLY BLIZZARD MAKES OUR DOT we are getting good and do good dmg. Out of every class I get really pissed when a rogue QQ about ret paladins I can take shamans and hunters QQ but not rogues EVER basically. Basing your QQ off pve dmg and how you aren't doing enough and us killing you YES we can kill rogue now STFU you can kill any other class in the game and omfg your abilities in arena just like druids. Ive been trying to build to this about rogues because rogues need to be nerfed. Specially for arena. Ive been ret for a while and rogues could never kill paladins EVER! In ret or prot or holy. I mean wtf you don't KNOW how to sap cheap shot kidney shot blind dismantle vanish sap gouge KICK trinket cloak of shadows evasion. Its ridiculous how rogues complain about paladins bubble because cloak or shadows + evasion is practically a bubble. YOU NEED TO GET NERFED FOR ARENA you have the most to offer to it and so do druids that's why 2k is easy and its stupid how you guys are going to be able to ambush forever while shadowdancing. To top it off you have crippling mind numbing and and the one that reduces healing by 60% just like warriors and hunters you guys can snare root forever and can reduce healing. OK either give ret paladins some better snare then Judgment of justice or 15% speed increase and some sort of or spell cast reduction and yea some more CC because with our huge nerf we are going to once again suck in arena or you know what MAKE REPENTANCE TRAINABLE maybe 45 second cd or give us some sort of interruption something useful like all the other classes have all classes have interrupts mages hunters warriors rogue shamans locks druids can cyclone forever priests fear everyone every 20 seconds. So ok NERF us but give us something for arena yes we have bop but wat else we can heal! Ok yea like someone cant interrupt a 3 second cast. I mean WTF we are probably the easiest class to cc at least shamans can prevent it with grounding. "BUT OMFG you're a hybrid" if you say or think that's a reason to nerf paladins then that's stupid and your probably those noob mages that raid I honestly don't give a @#%*ttt about raiding and if ret isn't top dps ill quote smokey "I DON'T GIVE A %##*". Ill also admit we tear Bg's but so do mages so yea we got A NERF AND NOW GIVE IS SOMETHING BACK FOR IT! IF you people reading this cant draw a simple conclusion that now you cant tunnel vision and ignore what a paladin is doing then im letting you know. Yes you have to know when a paladin stuns repentance wow 2 things with a minute CD! ITS SIMPLE ITS ALL ABOUT COOLDOWNS. Just like PMR was so strong and will probably be strong at 80. Ret paladin rogue is strong because of stuns. Im sure I can find more @#%* to say about all classes but this is long enough and now I have to talk about HOLY paladins. WTF is up with blizzard making holy paladins the @#%*tiest healer for arena. They did it in TBC we had to raid and get t6 in order to get 2k in 2v2 and 3v3 5v5 is another story. Aside from making us the easiest class to cc we have casts for heals that I agree heal for a lot. So we cant LOS to good due to our casts and our only chance of getting 2k is with a warrior. If you got 2k with a lock in s4 or s3 wow omfg you wintraded no JK but you must have been extremely good. Our dispels did get fixed but 3 talent points omfg do something about it! BOF aside from it being dispellable and in order to get max you gotta spec into prot wich was good anyways has a cd to reuse. You did try I admit to try to get us less ccable but its not working! Your glyph of FoL sucks right now I don't know about LVL 80 BUT either make it stack or boost the percent healed by a lot more or something! Or give us a decent hot. Reason druids were so good in arena was because of there hots and crazy mana regen. Unlimited cc if you don't get on druid they will sit back and cyclone. Priests have hots shamans have hots now paladins have a stupid glyph that doesn't seem to be to good. Our forbeance is 3 minutes and I don't understand why and what pisses me off the most is 5 talent PTS FOR KINGS wtf ok yes it's a good buff maybe the best in the game but 5 talent points that's stupid. You guys have to not focus on pve for a sec and fix the paladin in a pvp perspective! I know wow is a pve based game but everyone seems to pvp more now. I am sure I left out a lot of things btw and I do hope rogues shut up now anf blizzard buffs us in some way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also maybe blizzard can do something for shockadins now they do seem to be dead!

...

YOU NEED TO GET NERFED FOR ARENA you have the most to offer to it and so do druids that's why 2k is easy and its stupid how you guys are going to be able to ambush forever while shadowdancing. To top it off you have crippling mind numbing and and the one that reduces healing by 60% just like warriors and hunters you guys can snare root forever and can reduce healing. OK either give ret paladins some better snare then Judgment of justice or 15% speed increase and some sort of or spell cast reduction and yea some more CC because with our huge nerf we are going to once again suck in arena or you know what MAKE REPENTANCE TRAINABLE maybe 45 second cd or give us some sort of interruption something useful like all the other classes have all classes have interrupts mages hunters warriors rogue shamans locks druids can cyclone forever priests fear everyone every 20 seconds. So ok NERF us but give us something for arena yes we have bop but wat else we can heal! Ok yea like someone cant interrupt a 3 second cast. I mean WTF we are probably the easiest class to cc at least shamans can prevent it with grounding. "BUT OMFG you're a hybrid" if you say or think that's a reason to nerf paladins then that's stupid and your probably those noob mages that raid I honestly don't give a @#%*ttt about raiding and if ret isn't top dps ill quote smokey "I DON'T GIVE A %##*". Ill also admit we tear Bg's but so do mages so yea we got A NERF AND NOW GIVE IS SOMETHING BACK FOR IT! IF you people reading this cant draw a simple conclusion that now you cant tunnel vision and ignore what a paladin is doing then im letting you know. Yes you have to know when a paladin stuns repentance wow 2 things with a minute CD! ITS SIMPLE ITS ALL ABOUT COOLDOWNS. Just like PMR was so strong and will probably be strong at 80. Ret paladin rogue is strong because of stuns. Im sure I can find more @#%* to say about all classes but this is long enough and now I have to talk about HOLY paladins. WTF is up with blizzard making holy paladins the @#%*tiest healer for arena.

I dare you to read it.

[Noobta]

^ Wow, link to thread?

[Royal]

Can you summarize that lol?

[Plow]

^ Wow, link to thread?

not sure, it's copypasta of copypasta

Can you summarize that lol?

"ret is fine, rogues qq too much, qq nerf rogues qq"

[Saphirea]

Granted I'm in shitty PvP gear and more geared towards PvE I did 2v2 the other night and went 5 and 5. 2 Were lost due to us getting kicked out due to an "Instance not found" and then counted as a loss. I don't think Ret is that "Over powered" Except when we went against the Mage / Shaman team. We rocked their world. Hunter / Rogue seemed to be the toughest for us.

All in all it was fun unlike prior to 3.0.2 where it was a ok, lets go in and pray we win 2 or 3 and maybe get a few points this week.

[Gulkeeva]

Ret pally's seem really easy to kill.. as a ranged class ;/

BM hunter, mage (especially arcane) and playing as a ret pally.. seemed really easy to kill ret pally.

Like... for Bm pop bestial, and go all out.. ret pally either has to LoH, bubble and chase me or... try to kill my pet. disengage off a ledge like in AV.. make a distance gap of 20-50y. Good to go again!

Mage -> pom > barrage > fireball > barrage > fireblast = dead pally if no bubble/loh (even if none of that crits) but its all pretty much 55%+ crit chance because PoM procs Arcane potency 2/2 = +30% and clear casting (which procs tons) gives arcane potency also +30% and my mage has about 25% crit arcane (and more from talents).

I'm sure by lv80 (if not already at 70) people will QQ over arcane mage burst insta-gib damage that basically ignores resilience.

Only class I've had trouble killing ret pally is warlock since... obviously warlock has no real way to counter anything a pally does . Hoj and boom dead