WoTLK Beta

[Eaglestrike]

http://www.philpickle.com/wow/PTR-Bug.png

lol

[Scythiroth]

That is awesome.

[Ramor]

What...the fuck?

edit:

It's mostly the other way around. People that just do world pvp and bgs don't want to have to do play arena to get pvp gear. In wotlk they made it worse by adding arena point prices on even the blue pvp gear, and ALL of the epic pvp gear has arena rating requirements. AFAIK the only pvp gear you can get outside of arena is the really shitty crafted blue stuff with resilience on it, and whatever drops off of that wintergrasp raid boss, which is pretty dumb in itself.

But seriously, how fucking hard is it to go into some arena and lose 10 matches a week? Even going 5-5 or so under 1500 would not be too terribly hard, and you could probably manage to knock out all 10 games in under an hour.

If anything it just seems like they're trying to stop people from getting all welfare epics in like 1 week and then sucking dick at their job in a raid group because they never did any 5 mans and have no fucking idea how to play their job and don't have prior experience with a lot of different types of bosses. Basically I think it's just Blizzard's way of helping weed out the really shitty people in 5mans/heroics/raids and I like it.

I'm not going to lie, I do miss having to be revered for heroic keys, because I do remember most groups wouldn't take you on heroics unless you were keyed for most if not all heroics, that way they knew you had done some sort of 5manning or done a shitton of rep quests, of course it really did suck having to get revered on second/third characters but that's not the point.

[Plow]

What's with all the hate on BGs? If you can get a 5v5 team together you can get together a strong premade for every BG but AV and win every single game, farming all the honor/tokens you need in about a month, without a whole lot of hours comitted to BGs.

Which leaves AV, and even that doesn't take terribly long to finish unless you're on a god-awful battlegroup.

Did rank 12 grind on my pally, twice.

Did weapon grinds at end of vanilla.

Did grind for season 1 extras on pally.

Did grind for season 2 extras on pally.

Did grind for season 3 extras on mage and warrior.

Did grind for s2 shoulders and weaps for rogue in greens, and s4 extras.


Even the wsg copy map in Warhammer makes me want to severely hurt people.

It's mostly the other way around. People that just do world pvp and bgs don't want to have to do play arena to get pvp gear. In wotlk they made it worse by adding arena point prices on even the blue pvp gear, and ALL of the epic pvp gear has arena rating requirements. AFAIK the only pvp gear you can get outside of arena is the really shitty crafted blue stuff with resilience on it, and whatever drops off of that wintergrasp raid boss, which is pretty dumb in itself.

That too, a couple thousand games on my pally + a couple hundred more between the rest = had about enough pillar humping, but I can deal with 10 games a week and I have enough people I helped go from greens to gladiators that I can get the ratings even if I play 2 hours a week and suck and have to get carried in wotlk.

[fantasticdan]

But seriously, how fucking hard is it to go into some arena and lose 10 matches a week? Even going 5-5 or so under 1500 would not be too terribly hard, and you could probably manage to knock out all 10 games in under an hour.

It's not that losing arena games is hard, it's that many people just don't want to do arena, because to them it's not fun. And I think you are missing the point that you can only get blue pvp gear from losing arena now, all epics will have rating requirements.

And if getting 'welfare epics' is someones only concern, just jumping into naxx and other entry level raids is much faster, and much easier, even if these rating requirements didn't exist.

[Ramor]

It's not that losing arena games is hard, it's that many people just don't want to do arena, because to them it's not fun. And I think you are missing the point that you can only get blue pvp gear from losing arena now, all epics will have rating requirements.

And if getting 'welfare epics' is someones only concern, just jumping into naxx and other entry level raids is much faster, and much easier, even if these rating requirements didn't exist.

well I wouldn't say it's fun either having to drag a bunch of noobs through some raid/instance who have no idea what they're doing and having to explain everything, and yet the party leader decided to take them anyway because they have 3/4 'epics' from PvP grinding the past week and a half

i agree entry level raids are way easier, but getting a group for them (especially on a low pop server like mine) isn't always easy, then again 5mans are no real treat either, so you see a lot of retards in epics running around because some legit group had to pug and because everything's RTU to be fair, they somehow ended up with 2-3 more epics that they really didn't earn, and they (noobs in epics) just generally piss me off and slow things down in my experience.

edit: as to the rating for epics, sure that's kind of bullshit but i could have sworn that the blue post just said that arena points would be required (no rating, honor included) for some of the epics, and then rating+just arena points (no honor) for the good epics?

[Lee]

I hope they keep the rating on the Epic Arena gear. Maybe then, Epics will start to be, you know, EPIC again? TBC completely took a shit on the value of an Epic. Back in the day, when you saw someone in even 3+ Epics, he knew what the fuck he was doing.

[Correction]

Uh, no? 40-man raids carried a shit-ton of dead weight and underperforming players of every stripe.

Someone in epics the week the content came out? Sure, awesome player. Someone in epics two months after the content came out? It was probably rotted to him. This was true throughout all of Vanilla's lifecycle. I guess secretly the bleeding-edgers were happy that Naxx was seen by so few people so that their 4H/Sapph/KT epics were the pinnacle of rare epeen but in a broader perspective a company will not survive making only 3-5% of its customer base happy.

[Lee]

Uh, no? 40-man raids carried a shit-ton of dead weight and underperforming players of every stripe.

Someone in epics the week the content came out? Sure, awesome player. Someone in epics two months after the content came out? It was probably rotted to him. This was true throughout all of Vanilla's lifecycle. I guess secretly the bleeding-edgers were happy that Naxx was seen by so few people so that their 4H/Sapph/KT epics were the pinnacle of rare epeen but in a broader perspective a company will not survive making only 3-5% of its customer base happy.

There was definitely a clear boundary between the epic players and the blue players. The blue players of yesterday are gone, and now there isn't really a distinction (like there used to be) between a raider and a 5 manner casual. Everyone and their mother has epics. When I first got an epic in Vanilla WoW, it felt really -epic-. I don't know if I could say the same for all the beginners who started WoW after TBC.

What I meant by the value of epics going down is the fact that they are MUCH easier to attain now, then they were in Vanilla. Remember ZG/AQ? 20-Mans that dropped majority BLUES until Hakkar. Now you could practically get 4 epics in one pushover heroic 5-man. Imo, what they should've done is make 'Super' Blues in Heroic 5 mans like in the case of AQ/ZG (How the blues there were much superior to 5-man 60s). The 'super' blues were great in most cases, and definitely allowed a smooth transition into 40 man raiding.

This way, when I look at someone and see full epics, I could actually say "nice" just for a second in my mind. I hate how that feeling is completely absent from TBC.

[Ramor]

I started after TBC so I can't say much about the game before it (I suppose getting to 30 before waiting until TBC came out doesn't count for much), but I did do quite a bit of the early 5man heroics/kara raids before they started making everything way easier to get to. I felt really good having been keyed for all of the heroics and for Kara and working on other attunements (BT and the like), after having made 4 epics and getting the rest by myself pugging heroics it was nice and I knew I was one of the few people who actually got shit just by trudging through all of the bullshit and just doing it (of course I had the whole summer off when i was doing it, probably the only reason I was able to get anywhere near what I did), of course I'm still using mostly the same~ish shit now because I really got out of it after having to start drag a bunch of retards through Kara/Gruuls/Mag/TK who couldn't fucking find their ass with google map directions and a GPS.

I like the idea of the 'super' blues versus giving out the welfare epics, that way having an epic means having actually achieved something even if it's only 1agi/2stam and 3ap better than that blue you upgraded from.

[Kytele]

What I think the cause of all this was basically casual people complaining that they would never see "end game" content, as if they deserved to get it handed to them rather than say, put in the time in a raiding guild. Sadly I believe that WoW has turned into World of Casual McQQ-craft where anyone can get almost anything if you complain hard enough and in large numbers.


I'm pretty terrible at arenas, I psych myself out too much and I end up making stupid mistakes. A lot of people complain that they don't want to do arenas to get their base line PvP gear but I think in my case I can just do fully without. I've avoided arenas pretty much altogether and never ever felt like I was "forced" to arena. It's worked out fine for me.

[Scythiroth]

In a game with this many players, it is impossible to keep everyone happy. They are trying to make the casual player want to keep playing, rather than hitting a point where they can no longer progress without spending time they don't have. I understand that you might be upset about everyone in epics now, but from a business stand point, they are just trying to keep as many people happy as possibly. As the game goes on, the more hardcore players will most likely not want to play anymore, since everyone will have the great gear that they once had to work so hard for.

[Ishido]

The thing I always wonder about is... if you don't like doing arena, you're pretty much wanting that gear for BGs or world PvP. In both of those situations, arena gear is far from needed (yes it will give you an edge, but there are so many bad or undergeared players in BGs that it's just silly to need cutting edge gear).

Also it's possible to get arena points without actually doing any matches if you feel like paying a miniscule amount of money every 1-3 weeks.

I actually think having a blue "welfare" set of PvP gear each season is a good idea. Even if they eventually become more powerful than baseline epics, I personally don't feel that is a problem.

Also I don't feel the grind is too terrible currently for PvP. I did one character with a full set every season in BC, as well as a second and third in S3. It really didn't get old because I did it in two ways. One, doing one or two BGs a day (when the daily came out, just doing BGs until I got that win), or doing about 5-8k honor a day for a few days.

[fantasticdan]

The thing I always wonder about is... if you don't like doing arena, you're pretty much wanting that gear for BGs or world PvP. In both of those situations, arena gear is far from needed (yes it will give you an edge, but there are so many bad or undergeared players in BGs that it's just silly to need cutting edge gear).

That's because the pvp focus of the game has been shifted entirely to arena by blizzard. If we had rated/ranked/whatever BGs, it would be a lot different.

[Eaglestrike]

What I think the cause of all this was basically casual people complaining that they would never see "end game" content, as if they deserved to get it handed to them rather than say, put in the time in a raiding guild. Sadly I believe that WoW has turned into World of Casual McQQ-craft where anyone can get almost anything if you complain hard enough and in large numbers.


I'm pretty terrible at arenas, I psych myself out too much and I end up making stupid mistakes. A lot of people complain that they don't want to do arenas to get their base line PvP gear but I think in my case I can just do fully without. I've avoided arenas pretty much altogether and never ever felt like I was "forced" to arena. It's worked out fine for me.

Honestly I think Blizzard does a good job of it all. Things start out hard so the hardcore gamers do it with a challenge, then they make it easier and easier so the casual players can get the content when the hardcore gamers have it all on farm. I'm sure it could be done a tad better but I think it was done decently well in TBC.

[Norellicus]

As a feral druid, my concern with the change is that we needed some of that pvp gear to keep our tanking builds up to par; world/instance/raid drops wouldn't keep us with enough armor AND crit immune by themselves (or if they did, it left us in a bunch of blue/green gear, couldn't afford to equip our tiered set pieces).

I hate arena, so I was always grinding BGs to get the pieces I needed to keep crit immune, and occasionally when I'd get an upgrade in a raid I'd have to go back to pvp grinding to get another piece to make up for what I lost in the upgrade.

I know they removed crushing blows which helps a lot, but unless they've addressed this gear problem already it's going to force the hands of us druidfolk :/

[Eaglestrike]

As a feral druid, my concern with the change is that we needed some of that pvp gear to keep our tanking builds up to par; world/instance/raid drops wouldn't keep us with enough armor AND crit immune by themselves (or if they did, it left us in a bunch of blue/green gear, couldn't afford to equip our tiered set pieces).

I hate arena, so I was always grinding BGs to get the pieces I needed to keep crit immune, and occasionally when I'd get an upgrade in a raid I'd have to go back to pvp grinding to get another piece to make up for what I lost in the upgrade.

I know they removed crushing blows which helps a lot, but unless they've addressed this gear problem already it's going to force the hands of us druidfolk :/

What? Feral druids are crit immune baseline.

[Fayttt]

Survival of the Fittest = crit immune

[Plow]

Also I don't feel the grind is too terrible currently for PvP. I did one character with a full set every season in BC, as well as a second and third in S3. It really didn't get old because I did it in two ways. One, doing one or two BGs a day (when the daily came out, just doing BGs until I got that win), or doing about 5-8k honor a day for a few days.

That's all well and good.

I had 2 characters exalted in all 3 bg's...

2 years ago.

[Gulkeeva]

Bg's.. are going to be so.. crazy.

First to the pvp gear = god mode imo, dam near impossible to kill (especially DK)
I was in wsg vs tons of murmur people.. dam hard to kill.. took forever, arcane mages and ret pally were wtf holy crap ass rape too. If ya don't have 20K hp+ ya gonna get owned fast. People just soorta sat in midd killing each other as usual, but it looked alot more fun/crazy with so many different spells/effects bodies flying around etc


I like how my pet survives decent amount of people attacking it though atleast.

Oh and.. when the bug of the massive 2 hander damage was around.. I soorta wished had my ret pally lv 80.. I woulda gone and soloed naxx/25man maleygos on heroic haha. You can do the bug enough to hit into the billion/trillions range. Considering pally has bubble, it would be no problem getting in range of mass mobs/bosses.. press 1 key and massacre it all