DRG vs. THF

[Vail]

not to mention the wide variety of high damage daggers that are out there now.

where? X's/blau is still the top setup for non-relic thf, with P.harpe and Sirocco's being subsitutions: all of these are several year old weapons. Azoth might replace Sirocco's if you want better WS damage and lack one of the higher dmg daggers or want more acc, but that's it.

where as DRG has gotten 4 new best weapon in the last 2 years. (oric Lance->mezrak->Thyrssomething->Valkyrie Fork)

as for thf vs drg damage/functionality: i won't get into it fully, I'm both jobs but I'm pretty bias to one job.

[CelinaAlexander]

as for thf vs drg damage/functionality: i won't get into it fully, I'm both jobs but I'm pretty bias to one job.

But that's exactly what I want D:

@rath - Fair enough, I just didn't want this to turn into a thread about morals.

[Tan]

@Thorny
I was more or less thinking along the lines of, theres not much in terms of gear for DRG or THF that would be feasible for BRD/NIN to duo. Yes theres always exceptions low tier ZNM's/ENM's but most of them can be soloed or duoed by any decent job combination. I'mma have to call bullshit on the Ix'drk, there is no way a BRD+NIN could straight tank RDM + RDM. I'm not going to say its impossible because theres a chance of someone with amazing gear that could potentially pull it off. However its highly improbable for your typical BRD+NIN to pull that off. You seriously think a NIN could solo JoF? Kiting him with W.legs he still gets off a few lucky Vorpal Blades when I stop to cast flash. I don't think there is any way a NIN could pull that off even with a BRD to dispatch the adds. Its not about "giving NIN the respect they deserve" its about giving the good players that pull off crazy shit the respect they deserve, and your typical players don't do that.

@Vail
Adder Jamibya, Azoth, were two that came to mind, with Azoth being the latest additions. As for DRG Thassolcrat was hardly an upgrade to Mezraq more or less a more affordable one at best. O.lance...? I'll definately say that V.fork is hot dragoon sex, and thats probably one of the biggest weapon upgrades they've seen. But with both jobs and all the jobs in FFXI you can't expect the latest R/EX additions to the game to trump Relic. I'm a SAM and Hagun has been King forever so bitching about limited weapons is meh.

The point was more or less when I leveled THF to 75 your best damage weapon was something like Gully +1 if you didn't have Relic and then I wouldn't have even considered out damaging other jobs. Mind you this was before they had to bump the damage of most of the daggers about a year or so ago. Thief has a lot more options now than they did then, and thats been one of the turning factors in allowing them to stay competitive with other jobs in terms of damage, that was pretty much all I was trying to express.

[Vail]

But that's exactly what I want D:

well, I don't like drg. I just don't even after leveling it the last 15 levels were done out of stubberness to not want to leave a job at 60, and to just finish it to 75. I will admit my final party on drg was fun (drg/mage burn and got to ding into wyrm armet) DRG burn is just one of those unique things you have to experience to really get the whole drg value.

the sad thing is: if I took the effort to equip and merit my drg it would likely trump my thf's damage output in merit and on HNMs in many cases, simply because of the 2handed update being what it is.

THF is also the most numerist 75 melee job, there is more 75thf online at anytime I've search then any other melee, and with so many being badly geared (I'm looking at you 75thf who still wear AF1 legs or using Hornetneedle or other retarded gear choices) I know alot of thf complain about getting invites because the honest truth is THF overall has a bad rep as a DD job (and because of idiots I listed above) it's rightfully earned. I personally get a good amount of invites but it's from people who know I push my thf to the limits with what I currently have, so it's more about inviting me, not inviting a "thf"

thf is one of those jobs that if you can't or aren't willing to put effort into the better gear you will always, always: be subpar to nearly any AH DD out there. THF needs the better gear to even be on a competitive level. (and this is with the advantage of fighting piercing weak mobs)

O.lance...?

was the best lance when it came out trumping Ice Lance+1

Adder Jambiya is ok for like: solo stuff or where you need the eva, but for damage: I'm pretty sure blau and even ol' sirocco's is quite superior. That's what I'm stuck with atm blau/sirocco, which is a good combo: but I'm trying my hardest to get X's knife atm, I'm still debating on getting azoth or not until I can get X's, and go azoth/blau simply for the stronger WS and acc: but it'd hurt my dot compared to blau/sirocco, the question for me is the extra acc and WS damage enough to make up for switching off sirocco. But I'm still not sold on the idea of using Azoth: if someone wants to chime in with their thoughts I'd be glad to listen on blau/sirocco vs azoth/blau

Another thought: one my biggest reasons from looking away from drg is, my friend who's a SAM/DRG using Tomoe (with above average but not the best gear) spanks any and every drg I've ever seen in a merit PT, the fact that sam's inherit abilities mroe then make up for it's lower polearm skill (and less effective weapon selection) just points out drg's short comings even more so.

[Thorny]

@Thorny
I was more or less thinking along the lines of, theres not much in terms of gear for DRG or THF that would be feasible for BRD/NIN to duo. Yes theres always exceptions low tier ZNM's/ENM's but most of them can be soloed or duoed by any decent job combination. I'mma have to call bullshit on the Ix'drk, there is no way a BRD+NIN could straight tank RDM + RDM. I'm not going to say its impossible because theres a chance of someone with amazing gear that could potentially pull it off. However its highly improbable for your typical BRD+NIN to pull that off. You seriously think a NIN could solo JoF? Kiting him with W.legs he still gets off a few lucky Vorpal Blades when I stop to cast flash. I don't think there is any way a NIN could pull that off even with a BRD to dispatch the adds. Its not about "giving NIN the respect they deserve" its about giving the good players that pull off crazy shit the respect they deserve, and your typical players don't do that.

JoF takes about an hour 15 min on nin if you're conservative.. pop at 18:00, kite to tower, etude from brd, spam ni nukes and kite with AF feet. When it hits 6:55 or so(5:55 with nq af), get a lead and hold it until boots are active again without nuking.

[Zoot]

THF is also the most numerist 75 melee job, there is more 75thf online at anytime I've search then any other melee, and with so many being badly geared (I'm looking at you 75thf who still wear AF1 legs or using Hornetneedle or other retarded gear choices) I know alot of thf complain about getting invites because the honest truth is THF overall has a bad rep as a DD job (and because of idiots I listed above) it's rightfully earned. I personally get a good amount of invites but it's from people who know I push my thf to the limits with what I currently have, so it's more about inviting me, not inviting a "thf"

I'm guilty of defending thief as a damage dealer even when unprovoked. It probably gets pretty annoying, and I'm pretty sure people are tired of hearing it. It's also one of those jobs you're not going to see anyone notice you pumping all of your effort into. I've spent maybe fifteen million gil on equipment and countless hours in limbus, x's knife bc, merit parties to cap me out, fishing for freaking angel skin asdf maybe like four weeks straight oh my god for hq heca crap, assaults for divisor ring, and studied different sets for each of my weaponskills (with TA will this piece be better? With SA should I use this piece? Assassin's cape or Forager's for SA Shark Bite? How much acc is enough acc for stacked DE, for solo DE?) and in most people's eyes I'm still just as valuable as the five or six TH4 mules we have.

People who enjoy endgame thf: Masochists? Maybe. The job isn't very rewarding except in solo or duo situations, but you might be able to say the same about DRG. Regardless of the bitching, if you put as much effort into your DRG as you put into your THF then DRG will win out in damage. Although as a THF, you're wanted for dynamis, nyzul, salvage, farming, and various other activities that want for your TH.

[Loren]

you're wanted for dynamis, nyzul, salvage, farming, and various other activities that want for your TH.

That's what gets me through the day.
The team cares about the loot drops, then while they aren't looking, I annihiliate monsters. \^.^/

Every DD job has its fun perks. A "complete" THF makes 25% more swings than a normal person, delivers two mini-WS per minute, and takes very little damage in the process. Compare with other jobs' natural perks and the best player will often come down to merits/gear/judgment.

I don't think I ever coldly examined the finer performance issues when picking a job, though. Level it if it's fun, skip it if it's not.

[Ace-o-fire]

1)
It really depends on money and time you want to put in to the job. I personally have put drg on a hold still i can build my STR, ACC, ATK, and my Haste set up. (mind you im only 63 atm and I'm working on getting all the gear i can buy ready for the trek in to 75) You really can use maybe two sets ACC/Haste na STR/Attack. But there is a lot of gear that can be used in all 4 areas that i mention. Hell i have over 47 soon to be 57 acc not even counting my accuracy bonuses witch will put me up at +79 acc. Drg is very wide in the gear and type of drg you wish to be.

2)
As long as you have all the merits you mentioned caped then you will be at very good shape for drg. on my old account i didn't notice much difference with - crit rate down. But i only started to solo when i hit 75 so it might be helpful as your leveling.

3)
My only advice on drg is to make sure you have great gear. It'll help people remember who you are and keep getting invites. And you'll probably have to wait for your drg to get better endgame gear or a ls that comfortable with drg being in endgame to do those types of event. I found drg and still do a fun job to play.

ps: /blu is better. 60+ when you get AF helm.

[ringthree]

Onto the bulk of your post; DRG and THF are both really capable jobs for handling duo/trio situations, both do really well on merits vs. birds (if you have them pimped out) and thats where the catch is. DRG and THF both require extensive work gearing them up to the point where they are "omgwtfhe'sapimpedout(job)" and even then ... they really aren't that spectacular. A well geared SAM, WAR, DRK, MNK probably going to put up bigger and better numbers because thats just what they do. But! They have their place and time like anything and everything, best advice is don't play a job for their "omgwtfhe'sapimpedout(job)" value but because you enjoy it. Even if you level DRG or THF any LS with their right mind is going to want you on BRD 24-7 unless you pull TH4 out of your ass somehow.

I keep seeing this notion repeated over and over, and the evidence that I have seen doesn't support the idea at all.

A well equipped DRG is on-par with any other well equipped versions of those jobs. And when I say on par, I mean equal to, not close. All of the parsing that I have done leads me to believe that DRG is equally as good a DD as any of the other DD's after SAM (which is generally considered to be the top-tier DD). I have some parses at home that I can post to support this if people still feel this is a point of contention.

[Callisto]

I agree with that in terms of merits, but from my experiences on higher level mobs, to be easy I'll say the Nyzul bosses. We go in with 3 SAMs and me 2-boxing a well-geared DRG, in terms of the best gear for the job I'd say the DRG is on par if not better than the SAMs. I use a whole stack of buff drinks, we unload WS...and all 3 SAMs do 900, I do 300. Consistently.

In merits however, I would most likely come out even if not on top. It's not so much of an 'loldrg' thing, it's just that in term of raw damage output other jobs have a greater native ability to put it out against high-end monsters, while DRG in turn gets much greater flexibility than those jobs.

[RKenshin]

I keep seeing this notion repeated over and over, and the evidence that I have seen doesn't support the idea at all.

A well equipped DRG is on-par with any other well equipped versions of those jobs. And when I say on par, I mean equal to, not close. All of the parsing that I have done leads me to believe that DRG is equally as good a DD as any of the other DD's after SAM (which is generally considered to be the top-tier DD). I have some parses at home that I can post to support this if people still feel this is a point of contention.

I agree with all of that minus the SAM part, I would consider WAR to be the top tier DD by quite a good margin when played and geared properly.

But yeah, I think the problem with people's current outlook on DRG is just a reflection of the 3-4 years or so of it being one of the weaker jobs in FF. Until DRG is undoubtedly overpowered you're likely just not going to see that change... But the fact of the matter is that at current, DRG really is up there with the other DDs on strong footing for most situations.

It will still be a while before that's accepted as any kind of common knowledge though.

[Callisto]

I still value the ridiculousness of Healing Breath over the DD output potential any day personally, that alone is reason to level DRG for me. Being able to consistently crank out 550+ HP for 8~ MP is insane to me, and opens up so much that you can do in terms of lowmanning things. I wouldn't trade it for WAR/SAM level output at all.

[shirak]

"in term of raw damage output other jobs have a greater native ability to put it out against high-end monsters"

Actually, Drg gets significant advantages against HNM with its "native" accuracy traits. Over 8 or so JoL's, a Drg was #1.

Unfortunately, most hnm fight find the -mechanics- of other dd jobs more useful.]


and this confuses me:

"we unload WS...and all 3 SAMs do 900, I do 300. Consistently"

Are you the drg, because you are way below my average if thats 300 ws for the drg. Average 400-800 on high defense f100 bosses with wheelings, did a 1467 penta to f80 khimara last night (/whm lol).


I've both Drg and Thf at 75. Both have similar dd playstyles, (2 instant dd abilities, piercing damage, and 5x hit ws's) but the difference is, you don't have to run around as much on drg.

They differ of course in their roles. Thief is moving towards utility player with /nin justified by accomplice/collaborator and trick attack hate transfer. Drg is moving towards raw dd through the 2hand update and being included on the askar/ares/aurum sets. I'd rather dd than utility. Drg fills the role (heavy DD) just fine these days and then some so I'm content. Thief is just a pain to play.

[Callisto]

and this confuses me:

"we unload WS...and all 3 SAMs do 900, I do 300. Consistently"

Are you the drg, because you are way below my average if thats 300 ws for the drg. Average 400-800 on high defense f100 bosses with wheelings, did a 1467 penta to f80 khimara last night (/whm lol).

Yeah I was the DRG, confused the fuck out of me too.

Edit: For clarity not exactly shitty gear either, and I had buff items up, WS set is:

Spoiler: show

Mezraq/Pole Strap/Elvaan Sachet
Wyrm Armet/Shadow Gorget(Chiv for Wheeling/Skewer)/Bushi/Brutal
N.Body/Drachen +1 Gauntlets/Rajas/Flame
Amemet+1/Warwolf/Drachen+1 Brais/N.Feet

/SAM with Hasso up, both Wheeling at 300% and Penta at 100% blew for me, I think the mob was Hydra.

[Tan]

Its not really ignorance of what good players can do, its simply all jobs weren't created equally. Jobs like COR, DRG, DRK, THF have added versatility for the sacrifice in damage, while jobs like RNG, SAM, and WAR don't have sacrifice versatility for damage as they tend to have a single role. And the potential of those jobs to outdamage other jobs who's primary role is to crank out damage, would be seriously broken game mechanics. Even though we know that DRK is probably the most damaging job in a short duration but thats a whole other animal. DRG DRK THF COR can definately put out numbers in merits (I view that as the equalizer) as long as they work hard for it in terms of gear and merits, its just that damage comes easier to other jobs, because that was the way the game was developed.

Generalizations tend to lump, the good with the bad, its just the nature of them, but if we didn't make them it would be too tedious to explain trends.

[shirak]

yeah, id stay away from your generalizations Tan. Putting Drg and Drk in same spot as thf and cor, well, just doesn't work.

[ringthree]

I agree with all of that minus the SAM part, I would consider WAR to be the top tier DD by quite a good margin when played and geared properly.

But yeah, I think the problem with people's current outlook on DRG is just a reflection of the 3-4 years or so of it being one of the weaker jobs in FF. Until DRG is undoubtedly overpowered you're likely just not going to see that change... But the fact of the matter is that at current, DRG really is up there with the other DDs on strong footing for most situations.

It will still be a while before that's accepted as any kind of common knowledge though.

Honestly, it's getting to the point where SAM, WAR and DRG are getting close enough to be within range of one another. Am I the only one that feels that it may be DRK and MNK that are falling behind in a lot of cases? In merits, a DRK that casts just about anything besides Stun will quickly fall behind other DD's and MNK/NIN just can't keep up with a two-hander subbing SAM. I am getting more and more comfortable going MNK/WAR in merits because I am less worried about the other DD pulling hate of me with WS and normal attacks.

I totally agree with you about the stigma from 3-4 years of being the bottom DD causing this impression, and it may take some time for this to correct itself, because the transition from worst DD to top tier DD happened in just the span of an update or two. Two-hander update, second accuracy bonus, Penta-thrust update, and the myriad of amazing gear they have added to DRG. I think the turn about started when they allowed DRG to equip more than just leather gear. Two reasons I think the transition went unnoticed is because pre-update DRG had already adjusted their play style to adapt to their lowly position prior to these changes, and because people haven't started really leveling DRG as one of the "halo" DD's yet.

I pride myself on my MNK, and on trolls (a neutral mob) I have to manipulate songs (madrigal, march x2, minuet) in order to come out on top of my friend's DRG. If the songs were different (march x2, minuet x2) I know I would be behind. Thus, my transition to MNK/WAR in more and more merit parties (my friend also never uses Segan, which is cheating to begin with, but if she is going to suck down more MP then I should be able to also, LOL there is only so much damage that can go around, right?).

[ringthree]

Yeah I was the DRG, confused the fuck out of me too.

Edit: For clarity not exactly shitty gear either, and I had buff items up, WS set is:

Spoiler: show

Mezraq/Pole Strap/Elvaan Sachet
Wyrm Armet/Shadow Gorget(Chiv for Wheeling/Skewer)/Bushi/Brutal
N.Body/Drachen +1 Gauntlets/Rajas/Flame
Amemet+1/Warwolf/Drachen+1 Brais/N.Feet

/SAM with Hasso up, both Wheeling at 300% and Penta at 100% blew for me, I think the mob was Hydra.

Wheeling at 300% isn't going to net you much difference at all from 100% as I have noticed. 300% Penta should really improve your accuracy and increase your damage by quite a bit if you are missing hits lower than that. But honestly, I don't know what you are doing wrong to get those results, but I don't see those kind of results in general with our LS DRG's.

[ringthree]

Its not really ignorance of what good players can do, its simply all jobs weren't created equally. Jobs like COR, DRG, DRK, THF have added versatility for the sacrifice in damage, while jobs like RNG, SAM, and WAR don't have sacrifice versatility for damage as they tend to have a single role. And the potential of those jobs to outdamage other jobs who's primary role is to crank out damage, would be seriously broken game mechanics. Even though we know that DRK is probably the most damaging job in a short duration but thats a whole other animal. DRG DRK THF COR can definately put out numbers in merits (I view that as the equalizer) as long as they work hard for it in terms of gear and merits, its just that damage comes easier to other jobs, because that was the way the game was developed.

Generalizations tend to lump, the good with the bad, its just the nature of them, but if we didn't make them it would be too tedious to explain trends.

While I agree with the concept of your post, the jobs that you assign to those different positions seems rather incorrect.

[Tan]

yeah, id stay away from your generalizations Tan. Putting Drg and Drk in same spot as thf and cor, well, just doesn't work.

DRK - Added capability for magic casting, casting tends to slow down melee hits, thus decreasing damage.
DRG - Ability to utilize healing breaths, at the expense of a melee SJ and overall offensive JAs, and for the longest time prior to recent updates, minimial access to heavy damage oriented armor decreased their damage potential.
COR - Not a ranger, lower than normal combat caps, and therefore not going to do more damage, especially when people sub /whm.
THF - Ability to mitigate and control hate, low damage weapons and typically sub NIN for damage mitigation and pulling capabilities, decreases the damage potential.

Sounds like they all have added versatility at the expense of SJ's, JA's and their damage potential. Whereas WAR, SAM, RNG don't have to do that. Yeah sorry for lumping DRG and DRK into something like added versatility, I see that their ability to act like a cave man beating on shit is more important than their ability to do other things. All complaints about job design should be taken up with SE not me.