DRG vs. THF

[Xanthe]

Yeah I was the DRG, confused the fuck out of me too.

Edit: For clarity not exactly shitty gear either, and I had buff items up, WS set is:

Spoiler: show

Mezraq/Pole Strap/Elvaan Sachet
Wyrm Armet/Shadow Gorget(Chiv for Wheeling/Skewer)/Bushi/Brutal
N.Body/Drachen +1 Gauntlets/Rajas/Flame
Amemet+1/Warwolf/Drachen+1 Brais/N.Feet

/SAM with Hasso up, both Wheeling at 300% and Penta at 100% blew for me, I think the mob was Hydra.

Hydra is strong to piercing, which is partially why the SAMs are so much higher than you. As was stated, the other half is the difference in TP mods on WS.

[Max™]

Healing Breath really is jesusgood.

I was amazed the first time I encountered it being really abused (organ farming with my first limbus LS leader) by a Drg/Rdm using a freaking staff and that MP restore WS to keep 3 DD's trucking along without any trouble at all when the dedicated healers left.

[shirak]

Drg is two different jobs, not a true hybrid:

1) Drg with melee sub = top tier dd
2) Drg with mage sub = limited use healer/dd "hybrid"

You have to specify, and even still, drk, drg/mage, cor, and thief are light years apart in their use. When drg is /mage, thats when you get the obvious tradeoffs (no dd sub) that a hybrid deserves. Its not the main job that deserves less dd output.

[ringthree]

DRK - Added capability for magic casting, casting tends to slow down melee hits, thus decreasing damage.
DRG - Ability to utilize healing breaths, at the expense of a melee SJ and overall offensive JAs, and for the longest time prior to recent updates, minimial access to heavy damage oriented armor decreased their damage potential.
COR - Not a ranger, lower than normal combat caps, and therefore not going to do more damage, especially when people sub /whm.
THF - Ability to mitigate and control hate, low damage weapons and typically sub NIN for damage mitigation and pulling capabilities, decreases the damage potential.

Sounds like they all have added versatility at the expense of SJ's, JA's and their damage potential. Whereas WAR, SAM, RNG don't have to do that. Yeah sorry for lumping DRG and DRK into something like added versatility, I see that their ability to act like a cave man beating on shit is more important than their ability to do other things. All complaints about job design should be taken up with SE not me.

Your argument is decent theoretically, but in practice it doesn't play out. It's more like one of those arguments about what jobs should be, and that never goes well at all.

[Vail]

THF - Ability to mitigate and control hate, low damage weapons and typically sub NIN for damage mitigation and pulling capabilities, decreases the damage potential.

no- sub/nin increases thf's damage potential: especially on merit level monsters. 20% lower delay and an additional hit that never misses on WS (10-15% WS damage increase) is honestly the best subjob we got for damage potential on merit level monsters: bar-none

your generalizations are pretty bad and don't really account how the game really works. The concept of /nin lowers damage only works on jobs that don't use dual-wield, a job that dual-wields will do more damage in the long run.

damage vs HNM class monsters is a different beast cause of thf really needs to crack up the attack (/war berserk) to get there damage up.

[Tan]

damage vs HNM class monsters is a different beast cause of thf really needs to crack up the attack (/war berserk) to get there damage up.

^This is what matters. The generalizations aren't meant for merit parties as yes, /nin is more damage than anything for THF in meripo. But for me this game isn't about meriting non-stop, its about the variety of other crap out there. And you will never ask someone to come THF for DD if they have a 75WAR or something (bar the chance they have TH4, or the chance that their WAR is complete garbage.) If I'm bringing a THF along a) they are for TH, b) they are pulling or c) we need feint. I would never bring them simply for "another DD" unless that was the person's only 75 job. Maybe I'm just narrow minded or biased about the capability of some jobs for "DD". But for me and my linkshell its about efficiency with our limited numbers, and that really doesn't give us the luxury or using an "average" THF or DRG when a "average" WAR or SAM can without a doubt put up bigger #'s.

I guess what it boils down to is I underestimated how overly protective of their jobs "potential to do damage". When I prefer to think of in terms "how is my job useful?" Because in the end its not about your epeen its about how can you help the team succeed and I would be more worried about filling the role your job was intended to operate in, than distinguishing your job in damage (<-- This is a merit party mentality). Anyways, I'll leave it at that since there no point in an ongoing argument back and forth of which jobs weren't meant to be the "stronger" because in the end nothing I say will sway what people think about their jobs and most likely nothing they can say will change my opinion till I see it for myself and tbh its all moot pending the player, gear, merits and monsters they are fighting.

[Tomiko]

I agree with all of that minus the SAM part, I would consider WAR to be the top tier DD by quite a good margin when played and geared properly.

But yeah, I think the problem with people's current outlook on DRG is just a reflection of the 3-4 years or so of it being one of the weaker jobs in FF. Until DRG is undoubtedly overpowered you're likely just not going to see that change... But the fact of the matter is that at current, DRG really is up there with the other DDs on strong footing for most situations.

It will still be a while before that's accepted as any kind of common knowledge though.

I bet if you did an update about it people would accept it sooner. =p

[ringthree]

I bet if you did an update about it people would accept it sooner. =p

He could do an update about melee RDM and it would be a new trend in 2 weeks. Ruke now has demi-god level status when it comes to innovation and excellence in play style. Thank god he uses his powers for good and not evil!

[RKenshin]

I've said this quite a few times now, but guess I'll take another stab at it!

In regards to the 'there's more to the game than doing well in merit PTs' train of thought, more and more as time goes on I strongly disagree with how that is used... People will say it like kicking ass and being great in merit PTs doesn't mean anything outside of merit PTs, and that what's really important is the rest of the game.

But the fact of the matter is, that more than ever you're going to be in the exact same situation you are in a merit PT. If you're an amazing DD/mage/support in merits, there are very few (if any) situations now where that wouldn't carry over to every other possible FF event. A group that kicks all ass in merits will kick all ass in just about every other event in the game as well. But people talk like the line between merit PTs and everything else in the game is a huge liek xbox gap where good performance in one has nothing to do with good performance in the other.

There's way more endgame events this game has that replicates a merit PT setup, as opposed to say an HNM one (which is really the only event where things may differ substantially). You have dynamis, salvage, limbus, einherjar, assault, nyzul isle, sea triggers & jailers, sky triggers & gods, ZNM, and even most HNMs now are burned down in a similar style.

Obviously some linkshells approach these events differently, but the large majority of them all do it the same way. And I don't think there's much room for debate in which is more effective overall either with the right resources.

[Ophannus]

Well one problem is that DRG really does suck balls on TOAU kings and CoP Wyrms. My wheeling thrusts on cerberus were around 350-400 with like 77+65 total STR and /SAM with bison steak on.

[Zoot]

^And you will never ask someone to come THF for DD if they have a 75WAR or something (bar the chance they have TH4, or the chance that their WAR is complete garbage.) If I'm bringing a THF along a) they are for TH, b) they are pulling or c) we need feint. I would never bring them simply for "another DD" unless that was the person's only 75 job. Maybe I'm just narrow minded or biased about the capability of some jobs for "DD". But for me and my linkshell its about efficiency with our limited numbers, and that really doesn't give us the luxury or using an "average" THF or DRG when a "average" WAR or SAM can without a doubt put up bigger #'s.

Your signature does suite your view on things. But, I don't do 21-24 hour HNM spawns or Wyrms anymore so that generalization doesn't really apply to me. You will invite a dragoon for angon on melee burned HNMs, you will invite a THF for feint and TH.

Most land HNM's THF isn't going to get you pretty numbers. However, it doesn't really "come down" to that, at least not for me. A very large part of how useful these jobs are comes down to how much more they can help while also providing what is expected of them. We are passionate about them because we know that there is a huge, huge difference between what most of the population sees of this job and the people who actually play the job to its fullest potential (both thf, and drg). The generalizations are usually based on the prior, because they are so prevailent. That's the type of mentality I argue against. TheThe HNMs I do:

Odin: Weak defense, moves that shadows absorb, ~25 minute fight melee burn. Can a THF compete in damage here? Yes. SA and TA Shark bite are a powerful in this fight where regular multihit weaponskills are lacking. Increased survivability from /NIN also means you're probably going to be alive if shit hits the fan.

ZNM's: I have yet to do TIVs, but on T3's with regular mob defense there is nothing really different here from a melee party.

Salvage: A lot of mobs with very low defense and very low evasion. But that's tricky. You'd need a sub job cell pretty early to get a decent rate. Which means delegating cells to a thf which is going to be less useful later in the run than your tanks. SCH is excellent for salvage, and when you consider which job benefits the most or adds the most damage from their enspells, it really isn't rocket science. Lowest delay weapons, dual weild, a hasted thief with enspelled dual weild daggers is going to fly through floor 1. But if your thief is doing the majority of the pulling/training, they're not going to be engaged for a lot of the fights. It's possible for THF to do good damage here though, it just isn't practical, unless you're very low manned.

Personally, I have a relic thief on my team that does more damage than all my other melees, except one who typically comes black mage by his own choice. But getting him to the bard/sch party is tricky because I don't want to offend anyone. I usually come red mage and sit in the outparty, especially if this gives him a chance to be in the inparty.

Dynamis: You're not going to be raving about the numbers you pulled on this or that boss because we have no situational burst damage, but these mobs are basically the same as merit mobs. Of course with the mobs turning every which way this one is a real headache.

To summarize, really, more than 2/3 of the game are events without mobs that have adamantoise or bahamut defense. And when it comes down to that, the people who are smart enough to play these jobs well know their place. The difficult part comes in where the blanketing mentality that we're not good for this so we must also not be good for that weighs us down because people do not consider the why, or the game related reasons that our damage is either useful or negligable in varying situations.

[Amok]

no- sub/nin increases thf's damage potential: especially on merit level monsters. 20% lower delay and an additional hit that never misses on WS (10-15% WS damage increase) is honestly the best subjob we got for damage potential on merit level monsters: bar-none
...
The concept of /nin lowers damage only works on jobs that don't use dual-wield, a job that dual-wields will do more damage in the long run.

I actually think there's a different reason why a /nin would outdamage a /war. DW alone won't put you in first because:
-DA mitigates part of the DoT advantage from DW delay reduction
-DA also mitigates part (albeit small) of the WS damage advantage
-the real benefit of DW will be reduced due to the short length of the fights
-zerk + atk bonus compensate at the very least for the rest of the difference because not everyone pt's in a capped ATK situation.

That's all on paper though, in practice /nin still wins IMO because shadows let you SA+WS or solo WS at any point (even at the start of a fight) with little consequence.

[Callisto]

If you're an amazing DD/mage/support in merits, there are very few (if any) situations now where that wouldn't carry over to every other possible FF event. A group that kicks all ass in merits will kick all ass in just about every other event in the game as well. But people talk like the line between merit PTs and everything else in the game is a huge liek xbox gap where good performance in one has nothing to do with good performance in the other.

Just nitpicking, but maybe DD and support are the only that belong there. In terms of being a mage, merits don't even offer you the opportunity to be 'amazing' and more often than not newer RDMs are shit-tastic because they got to 75 only needing to ever use Refresh, Haste, and Cure IV. I definitely feel that a RDM or WHM that is 'good' in merits does in no carry over to their abilities to debuff things well, know when and where to use their vast selection of spells, handle large crowds of mobs, etc.

Even for BLMs and SCHs, merits teach you to go balls-out wtfpwn nuking til chain 11 and rest, they don't teach you the line between dealing damage and not pulling hate every 3 seconds and bringing a giant monster over the the mages to facerape the lot of them.

Even for melees it doesn't teach you to control TP feed, the best you learn out of it is how to bounce hate well. Yes merits are great for determining optimal gear selection and such(but even then this doesn't happen for mages), but they don't teach you endgame.

[Charismatic]

Way to miss the entire point of his post.
Hint: He's not saying meriting 'teaches' you anything.


The point is that many events these days are handled similarly to merit parties... so if a job kicks ass in merit parties, it probably kicks a proportional amount of ass outside of them too.

[Callisto]

He's saying a group who does well in merits will do well in other shit, because other shit isn't completely different. I'm saying that for a RDM who does well in merit, they very well may not do well in other shit, because other shit is in fact completely different for some jobs.

[Max™]

Whoa whoa whoa, newsflash for Max.

The offhand hit always lands with SA?

I know mainhand/first WS hit always lands, I did NOT know the offhand always landed, and if it does, does it also factor in the Dex dmg bonus without the forced crit effect.

[Tsuko_Asura]

News to me.

[Zoot]

No you don't get the bonus on the offhand. And as far as I know only the first hit is guaranteed. But the potential for an extra hit in there boosts the max damage range from DE, which is the staple WS for less evasive mobs or without SA or TA.

[Charismatic]

Pretty sure the offhand hit is 100% unless the enemy is under some effect like Perfect Dodge, the only reason I'm not sure about that one is that I've never used SA under those conditions.
But yeah, the offhand hit will connect under normal conditions.

[RKenshin]

EDIT: Another poster pointed out but yeah, I was specifically speaking about jobs... Not player skills.

I suppose that's the short of it, didn't realize how long this post ended up being. Shows what happens when bored at work.

Just nitpicking, but maybe DD and support are the only that belong there. In terms of being a mage, merits don't even offer you the opportunity to be 'amazing' and more often than not newer RDMs are shit-tastic because they got to 75 only needing to ever use Refresh, Haste, and Cure IV.

I don't know what you define as a great RDM in merits but we don't seem to be on the same page with that.

First, this is meant to address job utility in general. On the idea that if a job performs incredibly well in merits, then they'll be just as useful/desired for most of what end-game has to offer. And I don't think anyone would ever argue that RDM doesn't have a place outside of merit PTs.

With that said, I'm obviously not talking about player skill, which is what you're addressing. Differences in job demand and skill demand are quite different.

Second, I still disagree with that. For what I define to be a great merit RDM... If a RDM is excellent at managing MP to the point of keeping up a constant refresh and haste cycle, while keeping an entire PT alive, and assisting in debuffs... Then odds are they're just as good as doing that exact same thing at other end-game events, only with more time put into debuffs. It really is not much different, you would be hard-pressed to find a merit RDM that fits that description but sucks absolute balls when it comes to playing a similar support roll at dynamis or salvage or einherjar, etc.

I'm not talking about shitty RDMs, WHMs, WARs, BLMs, or whatever. I'm saying a job performing well in a merit situation will do great just about anywhere, even if you do base it solely off of merit PTs. The majority of 'end-game' is just doing the same function and job (and even setup) of a merit PT, just with a different objective and name over the head.

I definitely feel that a RDM or WHM that is 'good' in merits does in no carry over to their abilities to debuff things well, know when and where to use their vast selection of spells, handle large crowds of mobs, etc.

If a RDM or WHM in merits can't debuff things well, make use of their spells, or help crowd control... They sure as hell are not 'good' by my or many other people's standards. Whether or not they excel at just hasting/curing.

And again this isn't about the player, it's all about the job. And I don't think anyone would argue that WHM has trouble finding a place outside of merits either, if anything it might be the opposite.

Even for BLMs and SCHs, merits teach you to go balls-out wtfpwn nuking til chain 11 and rest, they don't teach you the line between dealing damage and not pulling hate every 3 seconds and bringing a giant monster over the the mages to facerape the lot of them.

Still not what I was saying, but this is a little more on-topic to my point.

But still, where in Salvage, Einherjar, Dynamis, Limbus, ZNM, Nyzul Isle, Assault, Sea/Sky triggers & NMs, etc, and burning down HNMs does that stuff you just said apply? Each have a slight spin on things but for the most part at those events, you're not worried about pulling hate. In merit PTs your concerns are managing MP, optimizing gear for the best DoT, staying alive if you get hate, and assisting in any further functions that may occur (crowd control, curing others, debuffs, etc). Oh wait, that sounds exactly what skilled players of those jobs do at all those events I just listed.

The majority of end-game activities are in fact merit style, not HNM style. And even when it comes to HNMs, you're doing a lot of the same things.

This still isn't talking about the jobs though, you're talking about the player.

Even for melees it doesn't teach you to control TP feed, the best you learn out of it is how to bounce hate well.

Again, in those events I just listed, is there even one where anyone would be truly concerned about TP gain on a regular basis? Salvage bosses might be the only thing in there, but that's not a regular basis.

Controlling TP feed isn't even a skill or anything you learn or have to learn either. There's nothing complicated about it, you're either allowed to build TP on the mob or you're not. Engaged or not engaged, TP of pets or off HNM, whichever.

But again, this is supposed to be about the jobs and not the people.

Yes merits are great for determining optimal gear selection and such(but even then this doesn't happen for mages), but they don't teach you endgame.

How doesn't it teach you endgame?

If you define endgame as the activities most commonly participated in and sought after by level 75 players, then the 'merit PT build' is without a doubt more the definition of endgame than anything else. Before when it was just kings, dynamis, and 10-20m sky god kills it was different, but things have change a lot since then.